Frame Rate, drop and non-drop, etc

[starcrash13]

On a Mac, Cmd+I will tell you the framerate. If you have QTPro, you can Cmd+J and see if it's drop frame. If you have MPEG Streamclip (free) you can find out as well by pressing Cmd+I. There are several other ways, too.

I believe FCP defaults to NDF, but the editor can pretty easily figure it out by looking at the timecode. Is it counting to 30? Is it counting every frame? Is there a semicolon instead of a colon between seconds and frames? This is really basic stuff.

If you're working with video internally inside your DAW and there's no window burn to match, then you can really call it whatever you want. Changing the framerate inside your DAW won't affect sync, just the grid and counter. Unless it's a situation where you are discussing TC locations back and forth, it won't really make a difference. If your running in sync with other devices, well then...that's a different story.

[minister]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

you can Cmd+J and see if it's drop frame.

really?

i just looked at a drop frame QT and hit Cmd+J and i could not find any indication that it was drop. what am i not seeing?

tell your editor to look at the sequence settings in FCP.

FCP defaults to Drop -- which is rather annoying when you get projects from ill-informed editors.

[imgoinmad]

In mpeg streamclip hitting CMD-I only seems to get me the frame rate, not whether it is drop or non-drop. Thanks Minister for the info on FCP default, I still would love to find a way to see drop or non-drop to eliminate the need to ask the editor.

Here's the info MPEG Streamclip gives me:

Duration: 0:59:20
Data Size: 11.92 GB
Bit Rate: 28.77 Mbps

Video Tracks:
DV/DVCPRO - NTSC, 720 × 480, 4:3, 29.97 fps, 28.77 Mbps

Audio Tracks:

Stream Files:
FOR SOUND 053107 (11.92 GB)

In QT Pro cmd-J gives me some info, but I also don't see where it would indicate drop versus non-drop. We'll be doing some work using Virtual Katy since the picture is not locked and knowing drop versus non-drop will have an effect on synch once we try to conform.

[meathman]

semi colon for drop- colon for non drop is how final cut pro and quicktime display this info. That should be all you need to look for...

[minister]

meathman,

how does QT display the semi-colon when there is no TC burn?


in the end, as Starcrash says, it won'y matter. the sync of the audio is tied to sample rate. he is not driving a VTR with code. layback will be fine.

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by minister

i just looked at a drop frame QT and hit Cmd+J and i could not find any indication that it was drop. what am i not seeing?

My machine I'm on right now doesn't have QTPro installed so I'm probably wrong, but I thought that the properties where it shows all the video, audio, and TC tracks indicates DF or NDF.

Originally Posted by minister

FCP defaults to Drop -- which is rather annoying when you get projects from ill-informed editors.

That is annoying. Thanks for the correction.

Back to the pix editor, the easiest way to determine DF v. NDF is colon (NDF) or semicolon (DF) in the TC. Or, is the TC skipping to ;02 at the beginning of every minute (except those divisible by 10)? IIRC, there's a menu item in FCP called Project Properties or Audio Properties or something to that effect that would also tell you. I'll check it when I get home (yes, I'm at work on a Sunday!). At least I have geeky online forums to occasionally distract me from conforming my foley predubs.

[minister]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

Back to the pix editor, the easiest way to determine DF v. NDF is colon (NDF) or semicolon (DF) in the TC. Or, is the TC skipping to ;02 at the beginning of every minute (except those divisible by 10)? IIRC, there's a menu item in FCP called Project Properties or Audio Properties or something to that effect that would also tell you. I'll check it when I get home (yes, I'm at work on a Sunday!). At least I have geeky online forums to occasionally distract me from conforming my foley predubs.

Sequence Menu/Settings... (Cmd+0), third tab Timeline Options.

[seanmccoy]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

the easiest way to determine DF v. NDF is colon (NDF) or semicolon (DF) in the TC.

I don't know if this is now defunct or was a unilateral decision by TimeLine, but my MicroLynx displays drop frame with a comma instead of a colon or semicolon. At least it used to when it still worked.

[philper]

Originally Posted by seanmccoy

I don't know if this is now defunct or was a unilateral decision by TimeLine, but my MicroLynx displays drop frame with a comma instead of a colon or semicolon. At least it used to when it still worked.

All VTR window burns use colon for NDF and semi for DF. Ditto for my NL audio recorders.

Philip Perkins

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by minister

how does QT display the semi-colon when there is no TC burn?

It doesn't. There is a pull-down menu on the little counter on the bottom left of the QT window that lets you choose among min:sec, timecode, or frames. But...it's drop-frame only regardless of the actual frame rate. Not very "Pro".

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by imgoinmad

We'll be doing some work using Virtual Katy since the picture is not locked and knowing drop versus non-drop will have an effect on synch once we try to conform.

Conforming to picture changes made by a clueless editor! Sounds like fun.

Should be a thread unto itself.

One more tip:
Ask the editor what his last frame of picture is. From there you can pretty easily determine DF or NDF by checking it against your DAW timeline.

[minister]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

It doesn't. There is a pull-down menu on the little counter on the bottom left of the QT window that lets you choose among min:sec, timecode, or frames. But...it's drop-frame only regardless of the actual frame rate. Not very "Pro".

I guess i should not have put my post as a question. meathman's post did not address the original poster's issue.

but i think we have given him more that enough to go with.

you should be calling the director or producer or post supervisor or whomever to ask. the fact that the editor does not know is.............

[imgoinmad]

Thanks for your help guys, this was helpful!

Turns out the editor was using the FCP Default of DF. Technically is this a bad thing for the editor, should I advise him to change or just let sleeping dogs lie?

[starcrash13]

No biggie. Just as long as you're on the same page.

Most folks generally prefer non-drop because it's less confusing. As a side note, in film it's more common to use footage rather than TC for things like communicating notes or conforms. It's also less of a mouthful than spitting out a full TC location.

[jason kanter]

I recently had a similar problem. Had a video that was supposed to be 29.97 drop. I opened it in QT Pro and it says nothing about drop/ND. I opened it in Nuendo4 and likewise, it only describes the file's speed, not whether it's drop or not.

Now the animator who created the file swears up and down that it's drop (which it's supposed to be), and I believe him as he has much more experience with video than I, but how can I be sure?

Originally Posted by starcrash13

There is a pull-down menu on the little counter on the bottom left of the QT window that lets you choose among min:sec, timecode, or frames.

My QT Pro (on a PC) only has "Standard" & "Frame Number" as drop down options.

[imgoinmad]

Originally Posted by jason kanter

but how can I be sure?

The thing I found worked best was from the posting above from Starcrash13 ==>

Originally Posted by starcrash13
the easiest way to determine DF v. NDF is colon (NDF) or semicolon (DF) in the TC.

[rhumphries]

If it's a quicktime, and if you'll be delivering a file, then it doesn't matter whether it's drop or non-drop. The number of frames is the same, it's just how you count them that's different. As long as you sync up at the top, you should be in sync at the end.

It's helpful (and recommended) but not essential to know what frame rate the editor is using because then when you open the OMF, it will land on the right place in your timeline, and also you and the editor can have conversations about the project using the same numbers.

However, it is absolutely essential to know what frame rate the editor is working at if you are going to re-conform.

But otherwise, a Quicktime generated from a DF session and a quicktime generated from a NDF session should be identical.


Tangential trivial: the offset will be 3:18 for every hour between DF and NDF.

-Richard

[mooquu]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I feel this is important for archival purposes.

In drop-frame, the first two frames are skipped every minute, except on minutes ending in zero. so 01:02:00;00 will jump to 01:02:00;02.

[FullFrequency]

All especially fun when a show needs to be cut to a particular duration. I had to do a cutdown with the online editor on a show where we were 20seconds long by the end thanks to the offline guy cutting in the wrong rate. Complete nightmare!

[neilwilkes]

Originally Posted by mooquu

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I feel this is important for archival purposes.

In drop-frame, the first two frames are skipped every minute, except on minutes ending in zero. so 01:02:00;00 will jump to 01:02:00;02.

Agreed.
This is very important.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by imgoinmad

We've been given a piece to work on and the editor (novice) does not know if it's drop or non-drop and doesn't even know the frame rate. He's using Final Cut Pro.

I'm borrowing this quote for my 'Quotes and Affirmations' thread.

But, also keep in mind, folks, you NEED A TIME CODE WINDOW BURN ON THE VIDEO in order to use that little theory about drop/non drop.

Match up your 2-pop and tail-pops (what? the editor didn't GIVE any?) and there you go. And, what? People are still working in DF/NDF? Everything isn't just 23.976 these days?

Jeff

[imgoinmad]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Match up your 2-pop and tail-pops (what? the editor didn't GIVE any?)

That drives me crazy

[tontostudio]

I don't think it will tell you DF or NDF but if you use a Mac, here is an application that everyone should have. it is called VideoSpec.