Video Sync Question

[Energie]

Hey there

First off, thanks for reading about this post. I am about to help a short film with some audio work and creative sound work, and its been a little bit since I have had to worry about video sync issues. So, long story short, I am getting a session and video that was first filmed with film I believe, edited digitally, getting an OMF and a quicktime video to post to. Now I believe the video editor said his digital video has 24 fps time code burn in, and he edited at 24, which sounds slightly off to me.

Seems like the video should be at least 29.97 something, and if I get the session, in order for it to line up, I need the correct frame rate for my session. I believe this is going to be mixed back to film eventually.

Any help or resources to sort out this sync issue, or info on who shoudl be at what? Thank you ever so much for the info, I highly appreciate it

Eric

[Henchman]

The picture will need to be at 23.97, so you can edit and mix at 29.97.
Make sure it's 23.97, or there will be hell to pay synch wise down the road.

[Energie]

Originally Posted by Henchman

The picture will need to be at 23.97, so you can edit and mix at 29.97.
Make sure it's 23.97, or there will be hell to pay synch wise down the road.

Ok, so I need to make sure he ran off a 23.97 Quicktime video, in which I will bring into my Pro tools session, which should be at 29.97? I am taking it our timecode numbers won't line up then, session timecode to quicktime burn in timecode? Which isn't that big of a deal as long as there is sync come layback time, which I think will be done at another studio, where we may mix back to the film. Any pull up or pulldown sample rates needed???? Thanks again for your info.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Energie

Ok, so I need to make sure he ran off a 23.97 Quicktime video, in which I will bring into my Pro tools session, which should be at 29.97? I am taking it our timecode numbers won't line up then, session timecode to quicktime burn in timecode? Which isn't that big of a deal as long as there is sync come layback time, which I think will be done at another studio, where we may mix back to the film. Any pull up or pulldown sample rates needed???? Thanks again for your info.

Make sure there is a 2 pop onscreen and on the OMf. And if it's done at the proper frmserate, you shoudl eb able to synch the omf.
I doubt they'll ix to film. But if it's goign to end up on film, they will certainly do a playback to film, to make sure synch is ok.
Also, if it's going to be 5.1, the dolby person will usually insist on doing the printmaster to film.
If the picture and omf are properly done at 23.97, you won't have to do any pull-ups or pull-downs.

[Energie]

At first it wasn't going to mixed back to film, and not surround, but i think they are trying to do both, its for Sundance maybe. We shall see, don't you love how specs change once you agree to take on a project, at first it was just some sweetnening and sfx work, 2 track bounce. Now its audio needs to save our project, longer, and more complicated, dang.


Ok, so Quicktime at 23.97

My Pro tools session at 29.97

2 pop

work to pic inside PT, and hopefully all will be right with the world. I really appreciate your help with this!!!

[seanmccoy]

Is there any advantage/disadvantage to running the DAW at 29.97 if it is capable of working at 23.97?

[Energie]

Originally Posted by seanmccoy

Is there any advantage/disadvantage to running the DAW at 29.97 if it is capable of working at 23.97?

+1 I was wondering that too....??...

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by seanmccoy

Is there any advantage/disadvantage to running the DAW at 29.97 if it is capable of working at 23.97?

I don't know. I've never tried it.
And I'm not really interested in being a guinea pig. So, when it coems to technical
things like this, I'll work with what i know will work for sure.

[gsilbers]

pro tools has 23.97 so u can work at that and not 29.97 in PT.

but 1st, im a little confused by your initial post.

is the QT and the OMF out of sync in anyway? if u open the omf and your session is at 24 will the 2pop be at 59:58 and all through out wont drift?

cuase u could do everything at the fps the editor gave you (24) . they can figure out later what they wanna do with it. just be sure to add 2pops at the begginging and a pop at the end of the QT they gave you.
if they later wanna turn it to 29/97 then its thier dilema when they or the studio does laybacks to digibeta or whatever.



24 and 23.97 is being used a lot of for indie films and indie video so dont worry if u think is wierd. u can check other threads by searching "60hz" or "23.97" there is mre info.

[Energie]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

pro tools has 23.97 so u can work at that and not 29.97 in PT.

but 1st, im a little confused by your initial post.

is the QT and the OMF out of sync in anyway? if u open the omf and your session is at 24 will the 2pop be at 59:58 and all through out wont drift?

cuase u could do everything at the fps the editor gave you (24) . they can figure out later what they wanna do with it. just be sure to add 2pops at the begginging and a pop at the end of the QT they gave you.
if they later wanna turn it to 29/97 then its thier dilema when they or the studio does laybacks to digibeta or whatever.



24 and 23.97 is being used a lot of for indie films and indie video so dont worry if u think is wierd. u can check other threads by searching "60hz" or "23.97" there is mre info.

I havn't gotten the OMF yet, will probally tommorow. I am just used to getting different formats from commercial post studios on Betas and what not, haven't done any post for a bit, lots of music writing. So I just want to be sure I am set up correctly. The video editor mentioned 24, hopefully he is at 23.97. If he is at 24 on the dot, how is that all gonna work out? He didn't sound like he was super keen on everything, then again, I am really rusty too.

[gsilbers]

betas?!! wow! where are you? PAL or NTSC is used where u are?

i wouldnt sweat it, if they pay u to work on something at 24 then thats it. ask them delivery standards etc.

here some stuff on 24P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p

[Energie]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

betas?!! wow! where are you? PAL or NTSC is used where u are?

i wouldnt sweat it, if they pay u to work on something at 24 then thats it. ask them delivery standards etc.

here some stuff on 24P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p

Yeah, beta, digibeta. I am in the US using NTSC. Though we never worked to the beta, just a tape dup that we digitized and then worked off that. Its been a few years since I worked at a commercial post studio though, I know Beta tapes aren't even made anymore.

[hociman]

Originally Posted by Energie

I know Beta tapes aren't even made anymore.

Really? Then the blank BetaSP's we have in our machine room must be the last ones on Earth.

[Energie]

Originally Posted by hociman

Really? Then the blank BetaSP's we have in our machine room must be the last ones on Earth.

I read not too long ago that most tape based media is being discountinued. This includes DATS, and Beta tapes I though I read, But now that I look I can't really find that, My bad..... However some tape based mediums are being discontinued, namely by quantegy.

http://www.quantegy.com/

[gsilbers]

well betaSP is still used widely in south america. a betaSP PAL was a hard thing to find in good conditions. but they are still at it and for a while. there are a series of standards on how to transfer to beta SP from HD 16:9 with pan and scans etc etc. so studios here are always thinkin backwards compatibality so they can still sell the shows and movies to other countries.

actually. south america only uses betaSP. but as for editors here giving u betas, well not too many.

[Energie]

Beta is a great format. It looks like quantegy, a large tape manufactuer is discontinuing making them here, but I am sure there are others. Too many beta machines out there to stop it I think.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

pro tools has 23.97 so u can work at that and not 29.97 in PT.

but 1st, im a little confused by your initial post.

is the QT and the OMF out of sync in anyway? if u open the omf and your session is at 24 will the 2pop be at 59:58 and all through out wont drift?

cuase u could do everything at the fps the editor gave you (24) . they can figure out later what they wanna do with it. just be sure to add 2pops at the begginging and a pop at the end of the QT they gave you.
if they later wanna turn it to 29/97 then its thier dilema when they or the studio does laybacks to digibeta or whatever.



24 and 23.97 is being used a lot of for indie films and indie video so dont worry if u think is wierd. u can check other threads by searching "60hz" or "23.97" there is mre info.

And how do you expect to synch to blackburst when you go to mix, or layback?

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by Henchman

And how do you expect to synch to blackburst when you go to mix, or layback?

ah, I said they will figur it out. they send u a QT at 24 and they want it back like that then its their dilema. mix and work ITB.

if they tell him to do the layback then yes, those issues wil be a pain.

but yes, the best option is for the editors to give him a 23.97 or 29.97.

[Energie]

Well

I am insisting on getting a 23.97 QT rather then a straight 24. Or on my last converstaion the video editor said he could transfer to tape and make a 29.97 qt off of that, just that his Workstation makes the QT what his session is at. I will ask more specific questions now that I have a little more insight. I really appreciate all of your info. Talk about taking the fun out of creative work.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

ah, I said they will figur it out. they send u a QT at 24 and they want it back like that then its their dilema. mix and work ITB.

if they tell him to do the layback then yes, those issues wil be a pain.

but yes, the best option is for the editors to give him a 23.97 or 29.97.

Sorry, but I disagree.
By acepting sometign you knwo will caue problems later on, you will only make yourslef look incompetent.
A the very least it's your job to warn them of the problems if they insist on continuing woring in 24. Then, when the $hit hits the fan, you can say "told you so".

[starcrash13]

We're getting more and more 23.976 shows these days. Recently, both Zodiac (shot digital and cut in FCP) and Winston (shot 35mm and cut in HD on an Avid Adreneline) were 23.976. I think this will become more common than 29.97 in the near future now that a lot of picture departments are cutting in HD.

[Energie]

Ok

SO Just to clarify, I CAN work in Pro tools at 23.97 if I get a quicktime vid at 23.97 and it will be good right!!! ?? !

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by Energie

Ok

SO Just to clarify, I CAN work in Pro tools at 23.97 if I get a quicktime vid at 23.97 and it will be good right!!! ?? !

Absolutely.

[Energie]

Thanks everyone

A round of hi-five's.

[Bryan Talbot]

Post afterward and let us know how it goes.

[joenovice]

Not to hijack but....

Could someone explain how and why 23.97 can/should be mixed at 29.97? From a novice viewpoint it would seem that the 6 frame difference would cause sync issues.

[starcrash13]

23.976 and 29.97 share a special relationship to each other and run at the same speed. If you have your framerate in the Session Setup of PT set to 29.97 and are running a 23.976 Quicktime, the minutes and seconds will line up, but the frame boundaries will be off. Also, note that changing the framerate in the Session Setup window has no affect on playback speed or pitch and therefore everything stays in sync assuming you are running on internal sync. Only the grid and counter are affected. When it comes time to sync with other devices such as a mixing console, then it usually becomes necessary to change the timecode rate to 29.97 even if it's a 23.976 Quicktime movie. Usually in film, we use footage rather than timecode and so we don't notice any difference in the counter because the Feet+Frames is still set to 23.976.

[audiogeek1]

Like it has been said. You can run at 23.976 with no problems until you need to go to the outside world. Although if he is giving you a digibeta tape this does not run at 23.976 only at 29.97. If you are digitizing that tape then you would want to run at 29.97. Like starcrash said they run at the same speed so should stay in sync. For laybacks to things like DA98s etc if you are running at 23.976 you would need to switch to 29.97. Hope this adds and not take away.

Mike

[Frank S.]

This is very interesting to me. When I have a project that is 23.98 I set my project frame rate to the same. All sync (tri-level) is also 23.98. In the past I've never had to lay back to any media that wasn't capable of running in 23.98. Typically the deliverables are HD-CAM or SR.

A project I'm working on now is 23.98 and I do need to create DA88s (which will not run in 23.98). If my project is 23.98 and I need to create DA88s how can I do this in 29.97 while retaining sync without changing my project frame rate?

Frank S.

[joenovice]

Originally Posted by Frank S.

This is very interesting to me. When I have a project that is 23.98 I set my project frame rate to the same. All sync (tri-level) is also 23.98. In the past I've never had to lay back to any media that wasn't capable of running in 23.98. Typically the deliverables are HD-CAM or SR.

A project I'm working on now is 23.98 and I do need to create DA88s (which will not run in 23.98). If my project is 23.98 and I need to create DA88s how can I do this in 29.97 while retaining sync without changing my project frame rate?

Frank S.

I too am trying to figure this one out. To clearify my understanding I will attempt the answer.

According to others, 23.98 and 29.97 operate at the same speed. This means that the audio will achieve audio/video sync despite differences in timecode display.

That's my understanding based on previous posts within this thread. Users with more expereince would be helpful to correct any misunderstanding or confirm the above statement.