Money questions for you experienced post people

[imgoinmad]

Hey Fellow Slutz,

I'm fairly new to doing post. I've worked on several independant projects with another engineer to build our demo reel but now want to start getting compensated, as people are seeing/hearing our work and approaching us to do their projects. With many independent films, budgets are small. We've done a few for free (to build the reel) and we've done a few on contract (we get paid if they get a distribution deal).

We've now been approached on a couple of projects which have budgets and this is where I'm a bit stumped. In one instance we're being approached to do post for a comedy...lots of dialog, some foley, possible ADR (we don't know how much) and probably not a ton of sfx. In the 2nd case it's a SCI-FI action film (think similar to transformers)...will have a good amount of dialog but will be heavy SFX and again possible ADR (but of course we don't know how much)

So I don't know how people typically bid jobs like this. I had someone once tell me that a 90 minute indie film is a $10k job. There are so many variables that I find it hard to just throw that figure out there. It sure would be great to get some advice from the experienced working in the field! Have any suggestions when it comes to bidding jobs? Our experience is limited but I think our work says a lot.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[Chris G]

good question... someone show us the way. I'm in the same boat.

[Henchman]

First you need to find out about the deliverables.
But I think the person who said 10k for a 90 minute indie film was full of it.
Unless you're talking bottom of the brrel type stuff.
The lowest that I've seen cheap low-budget MOW's and indie films done for here, with full SFX Foley etc, is $25-30k.

Anything less, and you might as well go work at Starbucks.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Henchman

First you need to find out about the deliverables.
But I think the person who said 10k for a 90 minute indie film was full of it.
Unless you're talking bottom of the brrel type stuff.
The lowest that I've seen cheap low-budget MOW's and indie films done for here, with full SFX Foley etc, is $25-30k.

Anything less, and you might as well go work at Starbucks.

I've done plenty of low budg indies, mostly good movies, for that figure and less. it isn't at all unusual, anymore. None of these films had fully-filled M+Es, however, and only some of them even had LtRts--mostly just stereo and stereo stems.

Philip Perkins CAS

[gsilbers]

my friend just did a comedy with the same specs as yours for 8k. except he didnt do the foley nor ADR. just mixing, sfx (not to many as its a light low budget comedy) and dia editing and dialog spotting.

10k in your position looks fair. if u can get away with doing "finger foley" for most scenes then why not.
and if your building up a reel and not have other projects then do it.

[Henchman]

This is why you need to get their specs and deliverables first. As well as teir expectations.
If they are expecting a full 5.1 mix and edit, full SFX that rival Star wars, and filled M+E, then you are looking at very different numbers.

[soundguydave]

When you take a flat rate job, be very clear on the terms. You don't want some director making change after change. On low budget stuff, I always make it very clear that if there are picture changes during or after the mix, they better be prepared to pay for them.

[introvert]

On game projects that are flat rate I've generally allocated one or two "revision cycles" as I call them, and that's it. After that, it becomes paid. That's to prevent endless revisions.

[imgoinmad]

Thanks everyone for your responses I'd love to see more opinions. Obviously the comedy can be done quite easily and if we are involved up front and can get good recordings done during filming we can help them get more for their money because we won't have to do as much.

I watch lots of independant films and the sound in most kills me. I understand most are under a budget but the sound can make or break a film. There are plenty of bad films I loved because of the soundtrack and likewise plenty of great films, I'd consider only 'good' because the sound was so bad. As a result, I think I'd be tempted to do more work that I should based on the pay.

The Sci-Fi thing scares me cause the time involved is more of an unknown. Are there things people out there are doing such as we will do this and this for $X with a percentage of the profits or an additional sum if they get a distribution deal?

How do you handle unplanned overages...lets say we agree to do the sci-fi film for a specified amount and we later find out there's tons of ADR that is required or the director doesn't like the sounds we made for his robots (or some other thing that would increase the amount of work).

Are you guys bidding projects by the full job or are you bidding by hourly work. Have you gotten so good at this stuff that this process is easy for you?

Really appreciate the input and look forward to others comments as well.

[imgoinmad]

In addition to my points above, One thing I forgot to mention was that I'm struggling between cheating ourselves by being too cheap (and end up overworking or providing an inferior product)...losing the job because we're too cheap or too high (double edged sword)...and while I feel we should charge less due to our lesser degree of experience, I don't want to be the guy that everyone in town hates because we've disparaged the value of a project like this.

[gsilbers]

dont worry so much dude. is not rocket science. we can help u also with a few tips. u will do a spotting session with the director to see where u need ADR so u know how much ADR is needed.

for SFX u need to have a lirbrary and do los of layering to make it souund complete.

and for mixing dialog is king so make that clear and the rest its just going for what u have seen in other movies. so id be a little more worry on making the dialog sound good than other stuff.

a good point someone made is too tell the director to give u the final film to work on or locked picture and that youll do a sepcific amount of time for changes and not more. thats in case u get a wishy washy director who wants tons of stoopid details changed when the actual movie is the one that sucks.

[BluKoolAid]

Originally Posted by imgoinmad

Are there things people out there are doing such as we will do this and this for $X with a percentage of the profits or an additional sum if they get a distribution deal?

I'm curious about this too, anyone have success with this type of arrangement?

[Eric L]

We are doing a SCI FI channel original movie that is sfx heavy and needs almost 85% of the production ADR'd.

budget- $30,000 US

This includes, 40 hours of ADR, 40 hours of Foley, 80 hours of sfx and dx editorial and 40-50 hours of mixing. Deliverables include:

5.1 PM
5.1 M&E Fully filled.
5.1 DX MX SFX stems
LT/RT PM
LT/RT M&E Fully Filled
LT/RT DX MX and SFX stems

This is a pre-negotiated budget for all this production companies movies. Their expectations are realistic as they know what they are making.


In August we are working on a 90 minute dark comedy with "Names".

All talkie, no real special effects.

Budget- $40,000 US

Same hours as above and same deliverables. Mix time might get extended depending on the clients and any conforms they make. This will be a theatrical release. It will be in theatres and most films fests.

Later in the fall, we have a 2 hour sfx heavy thriller lined up with names. Tentatively budgeted at $75,000 US. No breakdown as of yet for hours.

None of this is the rule, just three random examples. Do us all a favor and keep the numbers up. $10k for an indie is for an indie that never gets seen on a movie screen. I did a feature 2 years ago that went to Sundance for $20k. Lots of names, production was well recorded, clients were cool and we got done on time.

Most network series shows like 24 or Lost etc are about $25k -$30k per episode for 42 minutes of program and a two day mix with a playback day. Sometimes a day and a half with a half day playback. It varies.

[Henchman]

Don't ever, EVER, think you should give more time than you are getting paid for.
Remember that they'll happily spend more money on a single music cue then on the entire audio-post b udget.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Eric L

We are doing a SCI FI channel original movie that is sfx heavy and needs almost 85% of the production ADR'd.

budget- $30,000 US

This includes, 40 hours of ADR, 40 hours of Foley, 80 hours of sfx and dx editorial and 40-50 hours of mixing. Deliverables include:

5.1 PM
5.1 M&E Fully filled.
5.1 DX MX SFX stems
LT/RT PM
LT/RT M&E Fully Filled
LT/RT DX MX and SFX stems

This is a pre-negotiated budget for all this production companies movies. Their expectations are realistic as they know what they are making.


In August we are working on a 90 minute dark comedy with "Names".

All talkie, no real special effects.

Budget- $40,000 US

Same hours as above and same deliverables. Mix time might get extended depending on the clients and any conforms they make. This will be a theatrical release. It will be in theatres and most films fests.

Later in the fall, we have a 2 hour sfx heavy thriller lined up with names. Tentatively budgeted at $75,000 US. No breakdown as of yet for hours.

None of this is the rule, just three random examples. Do us all a favor and keep the numbers up. $10k for an indie is for an indie that never gets seen on a movie screen. I did a feature 2 years ago that went to Sundance for $20k. Lots of names, production was well recorded, clients were cool and we got done on time.

Most network series shows like 24 or Lost etc are about $25k -$30k per episode for 42 minutes of program and a two day mix with a playback day. Sometimes a day and a half with a half day playback. It varies.

I'm doing my very best to "keep the numbers up" (or get them up in the first place). All of my $10K-ish movies have seen lots of movie screens (and TV screens). I'm glad to hear you are very busy--I like being busy myself--and I do what it takes to stay busy! Outside of LA there are lots of films being posted for $10k or less, as well as a WHOLE lot of TV shows with a deliverables list longer than what you describe. I assume you charge what the market will bear, so do we.

Philip Perkins CAS

[dr.sound]

Guys,
Take your calculator out, divide the rate by the hours. Do you know what it equals?
A loss! A loss for all professionals! You can't keep the doors open for those rates. You also lower the bar, very low!! Sorry, but you won't be in business for long and you won't be able to upgrade your systems. I have respect for the knowledge that many of you bring to both here and other Forums, but I lose respect when I hear people stating these types of numbers. Sorry guys, but zero respect!! Remember, some will do it for even less than you will so they can get a credit. One shouldn't pay clients to do their work, they should pay you!

[Berolzheimer]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Guys,
Take your calculator out, divide the rate by the hours. Do you know what it equals?
A loss! A loss for all professionals! You can't keep the doors open for those rates. You also lower the bar, very low!! Sorry, but you won't be in business for long and you won't be able to upgrade your systems. I have respect for the knowledge that many of you bring to both here and other Forums, but I lose respect when I hear people stating these types of numbers. Sorry guys, but zero respect!! Remember, some will do it for even less than you will so they can get a credit. One shouldn't pay clients to do their work, they should pay you!

Thanks for saying it, Marti, as I was thinking it. Don't cheap out, guys, it's bad for all of us, the more we underbid each other the harder it is for any of us to make a living. Our industry has suffered enough of this already. Charge more, convince your clients that you'll be worth it, and work hard to make sure you are. As Hench said, they'll
blow more than the whole sound budget to get a song they want, or to reshoot a 3 second reaction shot, without a second thought; they need to recognise the value of the folks that do the sound editing & mix.

[subbasshead]

"Don't ever, EVER, think you should give more time than you are getting paid for."

I'm sorry but from point of view this is the worst advice anyone could ever give you!
especially early in your career

I am not trolling for an argument,
I will just say what my experience has been
& join the debate....

why are you working in film sound?

I cant speak for anyone except myself
but I do it because I love it, passionately
I love film & I love the role sound has to play
& creatively I push myself harder than any director ever asks of me ..

& I DO more work than I am paid for, on most projects...
& you know what? people notice
the director notices & you bet the producer notices!

it isnt expected of me, but i do it for three reasons
I am investing in my own career
I am investing in the directors (& producers) future..
I want the project to be successful, because success breeds success

Now if I was a beginner I would expect a few people to try & shoot this theory down
but I am not a beginner - I have over 20 feature film credits to my name
& you know what? probably a quarter of those gigs I got because I became
a directors sonic collaborator early in their career when they were making
their first or second short film... & irrespective of the budget I did everything
humanly possible to make sure their film sounded as good as it could be...

I think you need to ask yourself a question (& be truthful with the answer)

why are you doing this?

if reason #1 is to make money then I cant help you & ignore my advice
but if reason #1 is because this is your passion & your creative expression
then recognise it & feed it... & burn the candle at both ends to make it
better than they expected..

I am sickened when I approach a sound editor re a role on a project
& their first question is about money....
(& I have heard many post supervisors say the same thing)

The first question should ALWAYS be about the art

I know this getting off topic but do find out what the expectation is
& as a rule of thumb ALWAYS DO MORE

of course give them what they want...
but put in a few saturdays or evenings for free,
doing things you believe will help the film & the story...

& people will notice...

think long term

OR

do ONLY what you are paid to
& good luck with it

but I certainly know who I would re-hire when a big budget film comes along



i know this doesnt help re the budgeting question

& relative to that I tend to avoid situations where a producer
is shopping around for quotes... I believe their primary concern
should be 'who do I want to work with?'
& once thats ascertained then its a matter of seeing how you
can best make their budget work...


its also very improtant to be aware of what you can & cannot control
eg you know how long it will take to prepare FX etc based on content/style etc
but eg the amount of ADR is a variable
& if a producer ties that into a package deal
then the potential exists to get burned by it
eg you thought it was 40% ADR but turns out its 75%...
thats close to twice the work recording & ditto editing/mixing&matching

[philper]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Guys,
Take your calculator out, divide the rate by the hours. Do you know what it equals?
A loss! A loss for all professionals! You can't keep the doors open for those rates. You also lower the bar, very low!! Sorry, but you won't be in business for long and you won't be able to upgrade your systems. I have respect for the knowledge that many of you bring to both here and other Forums, but I lose respect when I hear people stating these types of numbers. Sorry guys, but zero respect!! Remember, some will do it for even less than you will so they can get a credit. One shouldn't pay clients to do their work, they should pay you!

You are making me laugh! My studio is tiny compared to yours, but I've been in business here longer than The Dub Stage has been open. Why is it so hard for folks who are able to work on larger projects to get their minds around the fact that there is a market and a business in doing small projects? This is not a new phenomena, not tied to Final Cut and mini-DV-to-theatrical indie movies either. I'm not an amateur and not a newbie--I've been doing this for a very long time. I'm VERY frank w/ clients about what I can do for them and what they have to gain by spending more money and going up to Skywalker--you'll be glad to know that I have even referred people to The Dub Stage because what they needed was beyond what I can do for them here AND they had some money. Meanwhile, back at the one-off-PBS-content-doc, the NatGeo/Discovery/etc cable series, the Ed-market project, the audio-only radio series, the local/first-time/indie feature, the labor-of-love dramatic short, the dance/theatre/performance company DVD for sale, the indie CD-label project, the corporate-web-promo and all the other projects that come through here that defy categorization BUT are honestly good and worthwhile AND have very serious budget restraints.....there's me.

Proud to serve.

Philip Perkins CAS

[Henchman]

Fisrt, yes, there are those that have budgets of $10k, and know what they can and should expect.
There is alot of work in the low end market and you CAN make money at it.
Obviously, Philper is syccessfull in workign that market.

But, Basshead, asking why I am in this business, well, I'm in it to make a living, and I love my work. But refuse to be taken advantage of, just because they spent all the money on shooting, then went overtime in editing. Then decided to do more reshoots, and all of that picked away at the Sound budget and Sound schedule. And then they ask you to do 6 weeks of work in 3 weeks, but pay no overtime.

Well, that doesn't fly. Do you think for one second that the actors put in extra time for free. Or when the picture editor is asked to work overtime and weekends, they don't get paid extra. Do you think the SFX team will redo an effect for free?

No.

I'll put 150% in the project and do what can be done in the time given.
But I am not there to fund the project by putting in free time.
I don't think it's askign to much to get paid for time worked.
And quite frankly, I haven't suffered from expecting that either.

For some reason sound people think they need to do all this extra, unpaid work to get in the favours of clients. When all you HAVE to do is do a good job.

[Eric L]

I did not mean to offend you, Phillip. Please accept my apologies. FWIW all I was trying to do was list three budget examples that I see on shows I'm working on. For the record, I do not negotiate these rates nor do I have a say in the budget vs time. As for my comment about $10k shows not being seen, that was dismissive and not very clear. I should have said none of the films that I HAVE SEEN with $10k budgets actually get seen by anyone. In LA, this is very true.

With all due respect to some others here that have posted, I don't think we can truly comment on rates in other markets when we do not know their business model first hand. The rates needed in LA to keep the doors open are way different than the rates needed in Minneapolis, Vancouver, Dallas, Chicago or Boston. If you can make a living and make a GOOD QUALITY PRODUCT at those rates, rock on. I do understand the knee jerk reaction by those of us here in LA however. Producers will always want the lowest bottom line and will do anything to get it. Even quote budgets from another market. I've seen it happen. Things are tight already (in all markets) and the fear of a smaller or non-existent margin is very very scary indeed.

I have recently been freelancing at another facility in LA (which will remain nameless) that just bid a one hour movie/tv special (depending on distro) for $6000 soup to nuts.

That is nuts. I had 10 hours to mix and 4 for playback review, fixes and deliverables. The sfx job was minimal as they agreed to use the video editors temps from OMF. There was 8 hours of dx editorial done and no ADR. In my opinion, it sounds bad! And I will not be doing anymore of those. But the clients left happy. But why? They didn't get everything they wanted due to time constraints and it could have sounded a lot better.

But they got what the paid for, and that is the key to all this. Doing more than you are paid to do may increase your Karma and make you feel all rosy and warm, but it will not increase your rates or your business profile. What does happen is that your clients will now expect that new level of service for the price, and guess what....

on the next show they will ask for more service for less money. There are production companies in town who have a standing policy to reduce budgets by 10% for each successive movie and move around to different sound houses to get it. Then when the budgets hit rock bottom, they increase the budget back up and start the cycle all over again. It is a calculated, planned workflow pitting different bids against each other until they can not go lower. This is why underbidding shows and doing more than is paid for is dangerous for everyone. I know an old British Sound guy who has a saying that he uses quite often...

"More is more, not less. Less is less. Got it?"

It sounds more polite with the accent

This has all been my opinion for what it's worth.

[Henchman]

I still don't understand why anyone would think badly of someone for asking how much money the budget is for a job.

At the end of the day, it IS about money.
Money pays your bills.
Money funds your lifestyle.
And when you see the ridiculous amount of money spent on Limo's to get actors to and from sets or ADR stages. Or the money spent buying all the expensive crew jackets, and the wrap party. Or the price for a single 10 sec music cue.

And then for some reason it's unreasonable to expect to get paid extra for working on weekends and evenings.
I seriously just have to shake my head.

How about this one. You do a favour for FREE, because there's "No Money".
Yeah, untill they start flying all over the world to take their film to every film festival you can think of.
The there's MORE than enough money.
I've played that game.

Now it's the other way around.
When I have clients I've done alot of work with, needing a avour. No problem.
But the first time client walking in, wanting the world for practically nothing or free.
Ain't gonna happen anymore.

[imgoinmad]

First I'd like to say thanks to everyone who's posted thus far, reading this discussion has been quite enlightening. I'm really glad I asked the questions to begin with.

As I mentioned to begin with, we're still starting out and we've done some shorts and indi projects for free or on contract (which we may never get paid for). This has been ok since we're building a reel. We actually have re-done the sound from a full length feature (big name film from the 70's which we love), however it's not our film and we don't have the rights to use it. Sometimes getting your feet in the door can be extremely difficult and this was the best way we could think of. As long as we could kick some @ss on these projects our work should speak for itself, and it has started to, since we're now finding people looking for us rather than us looking for them. That's a great sign! The reel is starting to look good and keeps getting better. The next step is getting beyond the reel.

The next step is what brought me here and I can't believe the wealth of info I've gained from all of you. (THANK YOU!) Gearslutz is by far my favorite online forum. I read it daily and respect the opinions I read here.

Each post has helped answer questions. Philper, you're correct...there's lots of smaller projects out there and I'm sure I'll probably work on a good number of them before I find the 'big time'. I hadn't even thought of some of those...I love your list ==> "one-off-PBS-content-doc, the NatGeo/Discovery/etc cable series, the Ed-market project, the audio-only radio series, the local/first-time/indie feature, the labor-of-love dramatic short, the dance/theatre/performance company DVD for sale, the indie CD-label project, the corporate-web-promo and all the other projects that come through here that defy categorization BUT are honestly good"

Subbasshead: Great post! We're audio guys and perfectionists and we love what we do! You were right on when you asked that question, Why do we do it? That's why we do it...we're into the art and we're really into taking the art to the next level! We put everything we have into our work and hope it pays off and people take notice. Thanks for suggesting that the *first* discussion should be about the art, for me that makes an easy lead into why we should be paid well...because they want their art to be as good as it possibly can, and all of us here know how important the sound is, it can make or break a project!

Henchman did hit home when he said "Don't ever, EVER, think you should give more time than you are getting paid for." I take that as don't ever feel you shouldn't be paid what you're worth. At the end of the day, it's the money that pays your bills...you're absolutely right.

Eric, thanks a million for providing those real examples of projects, it helps put things into perspective and really helps clarify expectations + deliverables, what's included to get there and how one scenario differs from another. Thanks for taking the time to post...immensely helpful!

As I said before I don't want to be the guy who desparages the value of this work. I want to be the guy who makes this work worth it's value! One thing's certain, I hope to work with you all some day.

[philper]

I do do a lot of low budg jobs, but I have developed a pretty sensitive bullshit detector and am usually pretty aware of when I'm being taken advantage of. I have the good fortune to work on a lot of issue-docs and indie art projects where everyone is sacrificing something for the common good, so to speak. People working deeper into the "entertainment" side of the biz are really up against it in terms of their clients trying to maximize their profits, and I don't see at all why you shouldn't stand your ground for a good sized piece of that, since the profit potential for those movies is much higher. I should also say that my indie clients don't always like the numbers I come up with for them either, but just like you guys, I have developed a certain ability to guess about "ability to pay". I have to constantly think of how many low budg projects I've "invested" in, and keep a balance between those and more lucrative jobs in order to keep going. I'm sure you are all doing this too, really.

Philip Perkins CAS

[philper]

Originally Posted by Eric L

I did not mean to offend you, Phillip. Please accept my apologies. FWIW all I was trying to do was list three budget examples that I see on shows I'm working on. For the record, I do not negotiate these rates nor do I have a say in the budget vs time. As for my comment about $10k shows not being seen, that was dismissive and not very clear. I should have said none of the films that I HAVE SEEN with $10k budgets actually get seen by anyone. In LA, this is very true.

With all due respect to some others here that have posted, I don't think we can truly comment on rates in other markets when we do not know their business model first hand. The rates needed in LA to keep the doors open are way different than the rates needed in Minneapolis, Vancouver, Dallas, Chicago or Boston. If you can make a living and make a GOOD QUALITY PRODUCT at those rates, rock on. I do understand the knee jerk reaction by those of us here in LA however. Producers will always want the lowest bottom line and will do anything to get it. Even quote budgets from another market. I've seen it happen. Things are tight already (in all markets) and the fear of a smaller or non-existent margin is very very scary indeed.

I have recently been freelancing at another facility in LA (which will remain nameless) that just bid a one hour movie/tv special (depending on distro) for $6000 soup to nuts.

That is nuts. I had 10 hours to mix and 4 for playback review, fixes and deliverables. The sfx job was minimal as they agreed to use the video editors temps from OMF. There was 8 hours of dx editorial done and no ADR. In my opinion, it sounds bad! And I will not be doing anymore of those. But the clients left happy. But why? They didn't get everything they wanted due to time constraints and it could have sounded a lot better.

But they got what the paid for, and that is the key to all this. Doing more than you are paid to do may increase your Karma and make you feel all rosy and warm, but it will not increase your rates or your business profile. What does happen is that your clients will now expect that new level of service for the price, and guess what....

on the next show they will ask for more service for less money. There are production companies in town who have a standing policy to reduce budgets by 10% for each successive movie and move around to different sound houses to get it. Then when the budgets hit rock bottom, they increase the budget back up and start the cycle all over again. It is a calculated, planned workflow pitting different bids against each other until they can not go lower. This is why underbidding shows and doing more than is paid for is dangerous for everyone. I know an old British Sound guy who has a saying that he uses quite often...

"More is more, not less. Less is less. Got it?"

It sounds more polite with the accent

This has all been my opinion for what it's worth.

Your budgets were very helpful and illuminating and I thank you for posting them. They really serve to clear the air on this topic a bit, and don't seem out of line for the market at all. I count myself lucky to be able to pick and choose what jobs I do to some extent, so I have avoided games with people like your "minus 10%" folks.

I think that quote might become my new motto.

Philip Perkins CAS

[Henchman]

As a mixer, the number one thing is to know how to budget your time.
The first thign I do when sitting down for a mix, especially the one off short's,
I check to see how much time they've budgeted for.
I have also made it a habit of making sure welll in advance that all the materials are in order. So, if we're not doing any of the cutting, I insist on getting the stuff at least 2 days before the mix. If it's not cut properly, it goes back. We don't have time to fix crappy editing on the stage.

If I go in for a 10 minute short, and the client has booked half a day (5 hours.)
then I make sure that we have an hour left for playback and fixes.
So, I'll spend 4 hours mixing, and watching the clock. I do not allow myself to get hung up on one specific detail. And I know I have to get through about 2 minutes per hour.
Then we go for lunch. After lunch we do the playback.
If I notice the client writing down pages and pages of notes, then the first thing I tell them is to pick the mos timportant ones, and if we have time, we'll do the rest.
Unless they want to pay for overages.
Usually, they don't. Sometimes, they do.

I have mixed TV series, where after the spot of the first episode, I asked the studio to try and get an extra half day to add to the one day mix. The client refused.
Remember this is a show with a $1.5 million per episode budget.
So, I could stay longer everyday, and not get paid for those extra hours. Or, we let things go.
We let things go.
The clients happy.

See, if I get in the habit of "going the extra mile" on every project I work on, because the client under budgets, then I'd always be working evenings and weekends.
And THAT is unacceptable to me.
I see no reason to care more for a project, than the client.


I also refuse to miss family birthdays, weddings etc. anymore. because ulimately it's your family that REALLY cares about you.
Keep that in mind.

[1150post]

Originally Posted by Henchman

See, if I get in the habit of "going the extra mile" on every project I work on, because the client under budgets, then I'd always be working evenings and weekends.
And THAT is unacceptable to me.
I see no reason to care more for a project, than the client.


I also refuse to miss family birthdays, weddings etc. anymore. because ulimately it's your family that REALLY cares about you.
Keep that in mind.

Cheers! Family first..

[dr.sound]

I would like to clarify a few things in regards to my post above.
Most of you don't know me, so I will spell it out.
Re-Recording is my passion. I put my heart into the projects I am fortunate enough to be given the opportunity to work on. I always give more than what is required, but I do it after the deal is done. That is why I don't give away my services for free and why I am very vocal about all others here not to give there services for free. No spec deals (when the movie sell you will get paid....) ever! I wish my clients all the best with their Movie or project but I personally won't finance it. I spend countless hours mixing and my clients leave very happy. It is a thin line we must walk. Be passionate about the Art, but also be in business for another project. PLEASE don't ever suggest that my motivation is for the money. I can't work for free and won't! I mix to my expectation, which always exceeds my clients!
Thanks for listening.

[philper]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

I would like to clarify a few things in regards to my post above.
Most of you don't know me, so I will spell it out.
Re-Recording is my passion. I put my heart into the projects I am fortunate enough to be given the opportunity to work on. I always give more than what is required, but I do it after the deal is done. That is why I don't give away my services for free and why I am very vocal about all others here not to give there services for free. No spec deals (when the movie sell you will get paid....) ever! I wish my clients all the best with their Movie or project but I personally won't finance it. I spend countless hours mixing and my clients leave very happy. It is a thin line we must walk. Be passionate about the Art, but also be in business for another project. PLEASE don't ever suggest that my motivation is for the money. I can't work for free and won't! I mix to my expectation, which always exceeds my clients!
Thanks for listening.

It's true that I don't know you personally, but I've read enough of your writing to credit you knowing that audio post is not a good way to get rich. ("How do you make a million dollars in audio post...."). I do do some freebie and almost-no-budg projects if they interest me, but those projects are almost always of the sort that no-one expects to make any money ever. They are made for other reasons. But we are in agreement about getting what one can for our work--for me it is more than just about my livelihood, it is a sign of respect from the person asking to have the work done. Do they value what I do, who I am? If so, they will either pay what I ask or acknowledge that I'm doing them a favor. If I, like you I bet, suspect that they are holding back on me for whatever reason, then I'll probably pass. I'm a small operation with limited time available, so I have to choose projects very carefully.

Philip Perkins CAS

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

I would like to clarify a few things in regards to my post above.
Most of you don't know me, so I will spell it out.
Re-Recording is my passion. I put my heart into the projects I am fortunate enough to be given the opportunity to work on. I always give more than what is required, but I do it after the deal is done. That is why I don't give away my services for free and why I am very vocal about all others here not to give there services for free. No spec deals (when the movie sell you will get paid....) ever! I wish my clients all the best with their Movie or project but I personally won't finance it. I spend countless hours mixing and my clients leave very happy. It is a thin line we must walk. Be passionate about the Art, but also be in business for another project. PLEASE don't ever suggest that my motivation is for the money. I can't work for free and won't! I mix to my expectation, which always exceeds my clients!
Thanks for listening.

Very well put.
Personally, I was pretty offended by the question as to why I'm in this business.
Especially as a mixer. Where you are tied to a chair all day long, with clients in the back breathing down your neck, scrutinizing every single thing you do.
It's the point where everyhting comes together, and is judged under a microscope. And you play the game of timekeeper, quality control and studio representative, keeping everyone happy, and ALWAYS keep a smile on your face.
Oh, and then to top it off, you have to do your main job, which is mix.

It's not like cutting SFX, Dialogue or editing music, where mostly you have the freedom to basically, set your own schedule.

Yeah, I'm in it only for the money.
Which is why I spent the first 10 years making NO money at all. Right.
fuuck