yet another TV levels question...

[Hoogaloo]

Hello. I'm looking for some charitable advice. I compose music mostly for TV and have always relied on the post house for final mix out to broadcast as well as all sound design and post. I like it that way and have kept my knowledge of broadcast standards on a need to know basis. I'm all for team work and I believe that too many productions these days are giving people responsibilities that they really shouldn't have. However, I've been put in a tough spot as my client has just informed me that the theme to the show that I'm doing is going straight to lay back. There's no voice and apparently the swooshes were good enough to call the sound design "done".

So my questions are... If I'm sending a final mix out for lay back at a post house, (with no mix booked - just a re-stripe)...

1. Should I be setting my output level to the broadcasters specs at this point? (ie. if no peaks are to be above -10dbfs, then I'd be setting my master output to peak at -10dbfs??)
2. Is it helpful to provide a 30 sec 1khz tone?
3. If so, what should it be in relation to my peak output? (ie. if I set my peak level to -10dbfs as per the clients tech specs, do I set my tone to -10dbfs too?)

Normally, I just hand over a stereo track @ -0.3 and call it a day. For the record, it's typical theme music where the level is fairly un-dynamic compared to an over all show.


Frankly, I just don't want to hand over the tracks and look like a moron. I just want to be loved.

Anyone that knows about this stuff have a suggestion? If you were re-striping something and some twit composer came in with a disc full of broadcast waves, what would make your life easier?

Thanks in advance.

-hoog

[hociman]

Originally Posted by Hoogaloo

1. Should I be setting my output level to the broadcasters specs at this point? (ie. if no peaks are to be above -10dbfs, then I'd be setting my master output to peak at -10dbfs??)

Yes.

2. Is it helpful to provide a 30 sec 1khz tone?

Maybe. See the answer to your next question.

3. If so, what should it be in relation to my peak output? (ie. if I set my peak level to -10dbfs as per the clients tech specs, do I set my tone to -10dbfs too?)

The 1kHz tone should equate to some dBFS value AND 0 VU. Our tones are at -20dBFS, which corresponds to 0 VU on our VU meters.

If you were re-striping something and some twit composer came in with a disc full of broadcast waves, what would make your life easier?

A 2-pop at 59:58:00 would be nice, especially if the music fades in or if the video fades up. This way there is no guessing where the music starts.

[GooberNumber9]

I'm relatively new to post. What's a "2-pop"? 2 seconds of 1kHz at the ref. level?

Todd Wilcox

[minister]

Originally Posted by GooberNumber9

I'm relatively new to post. What's a "2-pop"? 2 seconds of 1kHz at the ref. level?

Todd Wilcox

not quite. 1 frame (at the frame rate of the program) of 1kHz @ref level 2 seconds before First Frame of Action. Sometimes it is recommended to put a tail pop on as well. 2 seconds after Last Frame of Action.

[GooberNumber9]

Would this be after bars and tone, slate, black, etc?

So like:
Bars and tone
Black
Slate
Black
2-pop
Program
2-pop
?

Todd Wilcox

[minister]

yes, for TV and Video.

for film, it is a little different. no bars, there is a Picture Start and count down.

[Hoogaloo]

Thanks very much guys. Re. the -20dbfs/OVU tone.... I've always just set a maximum peak level, put in a 2 pop and left it at that.
So from what you're saying Jonathan, setting tone level in relation to my peak is a misuse of tone. I was hoping that it wasn't more complicated than that as I've always relied on setting my levels stricty in relation to full scale only.

Is it acceptable to just give them the track with a two beep and a note on the file that the max peak is -10dbfs? Or is that a hack thing to do? (Please keep in mind this is just a theme for a show - no dialogue) I'm probably missing something but it seems to me that I'd be safe if I met the spec for peaks.

I realize that a lot of you are probably rolling your eyes right now so I really appreciate your patience and advice!

-hoog

[minister]

the mixer probably rolled his eyes., sighed,. figured you were a newbie and brought down your level. (also, don't crush your music to death, leave room for the mixer to use dynamic range).

the tone is a reference level for operating : machine alignment. you don't need to provide tone to them, but your studio should be setup to the standard. don't set levels relative to FULL SCALE. there are a lot of reasons why, but one of them is level standards for TV. give them a -20dBFS 2-Pop and music levels that are in line with their delivery specs. which is likely -10dBFS. you'll look more like a person who found out what they needed to know in order to interface with the industry, rather than some guy who did whatever he wanted. in other words, you'll look more like a pro.

[hociman]

Originally Posted by Hoogaloo

So from what you're saying Jonathan, setting tone level in relation to my peak is a misuse of tone.

Correct. The tone should be related to both 0 VU and some dBFS value. Our tone is related to 0 VU = -20dBFS. This allows for machine alignment as well as providing whoever transfers the audio a means of correlating your program material to meter activity (i.e. that's really low, or that's extremely hot).

[Hoogaloo]

Thanks very much Tom and Jonathan. You guys have been very generous with your time. There is not much going on in the way of program material per se. No dialogue - It's just a tune so I'm thinking that I'm best off just confirming the broadcaster's specs, making sure my peaks don't go above and providing a two pop. From what I'm understanding, the tone applies if the material is varied and dynamic but an average level is required/established with a given amount of headroom (as well as a max peak level). In my case, we're just talking about a 15 second tune with a very limited dynamic range.

Tom, thanks for your advice re. squashing levels. I've almost always hated limiting and what it does to sound but there is pressure to keep levels as hot as they can get compared to neighboring program material (especially with ads!). Just curious, if you guys are putting together sound for a show intro, do you stay completely hands off with limiting? My natural inclination is to use a very gentle brick wall with no more than 3db of squash (I'm coming from a music-only perspective where it's getting more and more ridiculous.)

Would 3db be too aggressive for TV?
Is limiting something I should just leave up to the broadcaster?

Thanks again,

-Hoog

[minister]

instead of telling you what to do, i will try to spur some thought by asking you to think about 'apparent loudness'. spectral balance. where is the energy on your mix? how much of that is going to play back on TV? (please don't push 3k (or otherwise overly bright) making it harsh....think about cutting first).

loudness is also achieved by dynamics and surprise. and by refreshing the arrangement.

you can also achieve loudness by cascading a compressor cocktail and only kissing the limiter 1 or 2 dB.

remember, the broadcast chain is also going to 'manhandle' or 'accost' your mix too.

and remember, mixing music contantly at high SPL's will cause your ears to compress and they'll hunger for more presence. give your ear s a rest, check the mix the next day, and then check it at calibrated TV levels.

[GooberNumber9]

Here's another newbie question:
You guys are calibrating -20 dBFS to match 0VU on a VU meter, right?

So... What kind of VU meter are you using? Is this a VU meter on a tape machine you're using for layback, or do you have outboard VU meters that you use during the mixing process, or other?

Thanks for helping with the basics!

Todd Wilcox

[hociman]

Originally Posted by GooberNumber9

So... What kind of VU meter are you using?

Coleman Audio MB2.

[Henchman]

For future reference, you'll be alotmore popular with the mixers if you stop delivering your music at -.3.

[Hoogaloo]

Thanks guys. Yeah I shouldn't have said -.3 ... That's my setting for cd or posting demos to clients listening off the web. I have been doing -6... Probably too much too but it was requested once and I've not asked since. If it's been an issue, I'm guessing the mix guys waited for me to leave the room before complaining. Re. the gig I just did, I put my peaks at -10dBFS and all is well. I'll post if any complaints are registered. Thanks again everyone for your time knowledge and patience. You've been generous!

-H

[soundboy]

Here is the real technical side of this. 0VU or =20dbfs relates to a specific output voltage. Send a 1k sinewave out your output. Put a volt meter on that output. It should read 1.23 Vrms. If there is an adjustment at the output(the digi 192 has little screws to adjust on the analog outputs) adjust accordingly. Now your analog outs are calibrated to 0vu. If you are working strictly in the digital realm, then -20 is -20. That is your refrence.
I dont mind getting "hot" music, I can always take it down. What I do mind as a mixer, are bad arrangements. Arrangements that fight dialog because there is a woodwind solo during dialog heavy scenes, or somthing really busy during a quiet moment. That's a bigger problem then somthing mixed at -3.

[Hoogaloo]

Charles, I think I love you and I want all my clients to work with you. See now that's what I would have thought re. files for mixing! The reality is that with todays deadlines and expectations, everything remains in the box on my end. Yesterday, I had the client sign off 14 minutes before it was due at the other side of town for post! There's not even enough time for real-time lay back on my end. I find that this isn't that unusual for Broadcast design work. So, you would think that I would just have to take into consideration that I'm making good sounding/appropriate music that is easy to work with, not clipping or squashed with the right range of dynamics. However, you do occasionally get contrasting opinions from others that it is a really big deal for a mix engineer to reduce the overall music level (as they might have to do with source music from a CD). When I get sound design swoosh tracks, they're maxed out at -.3. I just usually turn the level down... Sometimes by 20db, sometimes a lot more. It's still easy to incorporate into my production. I would have thought that this would be the same level of complexity when I'm sending something off music to a mix but ultimately I'm trying to remain as Mark puts it very well "popular". Directors and producers are more likely to be spending more time around post people than music people and durring the ear breaks, a little complaining goes a long way.

-h