The last dialogue reference level question

[Dumb-Ask]

I read so much about this and it's still a bit unclear to me. I was wondering if you pro's could finally help me understand this.

When mixing a film at -20dbf

How loud should the RMS dialogue levels be

A:

@ -20DBF

1)Extreme close up loudest,screaming dialogue RMS? PEAK?

2)Medium level (most shots) 1-2meters away from the camera RMS? PEAK?

3)Quiet dialogue 3-5 meters away from the camera RMS? PEAK?

4)Quietest dialogue whispering and extreme long shots RMS? PEAK?

B:

@ -12DBF
1)Extreme close up loudest,screaming dialogue RMS? PEAK?

2)Medium level (most shots) 1-2meters away from the camera RMS? PEAK?

3)Quiet dialouge 3-5 meters away from the camera RMS? PEAK?

4)Quietest dialogue whispering and extreme long shots RMS? PEAK?

I know there are no rules and this is a creative decision but would extremely appreciate some guidelines .

Cheers,

[soundbarnfool]

Camera perspective and don't overmodulate.

[Henchman]

Stop with the meter obsession already.
When playing back in a proeprly calibrated room, calibrated for where the material will be played bakc (TV or FILM)
You should simply mix to what sound sright.
Meters can't tell you that.
Us eyour ears.

The only time I use meters, is when there is a broadcast spec that requires me to stay within certain boundaries. And that depends on the broadcaster.
They determine your maximum RMS and peaks.

As far a sperspective goes, that's up to the director/supervsor.
if they want you to play something far, as if it's close, then thats what you do.

But first and foremost, all important dialogue should be heard and intelligable, regardless of distance.

[Dumb-Ask]

Thank you for your your help, I guess I am a bit obsessed :-P

What do you recommend in a situation when mixing on headphones, how could I get the idea of good guideline levels?

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Dumb-Ask

Thank you for your your help, I guess I am a bit obsessed :-P

What do you recommend in a situation when mixing on headphones, how could I get the idea of good guideline levels?

I recommend not mixing on headphones, unless you have alot of experience.
And even then it would never be used as a final level reference, but a rough premix at best.

[soundbarnfool]

Originally Posted by Henchman

As far as perspective goes, that's up to the director/supervsor.
if they want you to play something far, as if it's close, then thats what you do.

But first and foremost, all important dialogue should be heard and intelligable, regardless of distance.

I was just saying 'camera perspective' as a general rule. Wireless mics (used way too often as far as I am concerned) pretty much obliterate that concept in a wide shot. But often that is what the director wants. So what do I know?

Henchman is absolutely correct: forget the freakin' meters. They are probably way too slow anyway.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by soundbarnfool

Wireless mics (used way too often as far as I am concerned)

I agree. I think this is happening more and more, becaseu half the new guys don't know how to boom a shot.
So, the only useable thing is the wireless mic.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by Dumb-Ask

I read so much about this and it's still a bit unclear to me. I was wondering if you pro's could finally help me understand this.

When mixing a film at -20dbf

How loud should the RMS dialogue levels be

A:

@ -20DBF

1)Extreme close up loudest,screaming dialogue RMS? PEAK?

2)Medium level (most shots) 1-2meters away from the camera RMS? PEAK?

3)Quiet dialogue 3-5 meters away from the camera RMS? PEAK?

4)Quietest dialogue whispering and extreme long shots RMS? PEAK?

B:

@ -12DBF
1)Extreme close up loudest,screaming dialogue RMS? PEAK?

2)Medium level (most shots) 1-2meters away from the camera RMS? PEAK?

3)Quiet dialouge 3-5 meters away from the camera RMS? PEAK?

4)Quietest dialogue whispering and extreme long shots RMS? PEAK?

I know there are no rules and this is a creative decision but would extremely appreciate some guidelines .

Cheers,

Don't you think that if there was a hard fast rule of what every sound should be that there would be a computer mixing it for the producers and you would be out of a job!
THERE IS NO RULE!!!
Experiment and charge your clients as YOU learn!
Stop trying to take the easy way. How do you know that the people who respond to your questions even know how to mix? Have you heard their work?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Don't you think that if there was a hard fast rule of what every sound should be that there would be a computer mixing it for the producers and you would be out of a job!
THERE IS NO RULE!!!
Experiment and charge your clients as YOU learn!
Stop trying to take the easy way. How do you know that the people who respond to your questions even know how to mix? Have you heard their work?

Hey Marti-

you never call me...

anyway,

I think the poster was trying to gather technical specs for dianorm. I am sure he would never assume that if he auto-gain's to those specs, he will end up with a satisfactory result. We all know that each project will have it's own level inside that 3db or so window...


cheers-

charles maynes

[Dumb-Ask]

Thanks for sharing your ideas,

Thank you Charles you saved me there I am not looking for a formula just a general idea of working using a meter, since it is not always possible for me to mix in an ideal room.I also find that it helps getting a similar level between scenes as I sometime mix the dialogue of one scene a lot quieter then the other.

@ Dr. I agree with what you are saying and this is why I wrote in my original post " I know there are no rules and this is a creative decision but would extremely appreciate some guidelines". by guide lines I mean your ideas(might be a language thing).

You said "How do you know that the people who respond to your questions even know how to mix? Have you heard their work?" I know there are many pros such as you here that would disagree if someone was not correct in what they are saying and this is why I ask in this forum and not another place.

Cheers,

[mauriciogsf]

É o seguinte.
Meu nome é Mauricio Fonteles, sou editor de som, e moro em Brasilia.

A experiencia que tive foi a seguinte:
Fiz o sound design de um curta metragem e tava tudo indo muito bem.
Mixei em Stereo...
Quando fui assistir o curta em um festival (Cine-Ceará), o som tava baixo, bem mais baixo que o dos outros filmes.
Na época, não tinha mixado o filme numa sala calibrada e acho que isso foi um dos maiores problemas.

Mas esses dias, estou editando o som de um documentario... resolvi fazer diferente, calibrei as caixas em 85dB e apos a edição, fiz uma pre-mixagem, seguindo mesmo o ouvido, mas percebi que os VUs, mesmo o master, estão muito baixos e isso me deixa um pouco inquieto, pois tb mixo muita musica e nesse caso os VUs ficam la em cima.

No caso do outro filme (do festival), o que fiz depois foi dar uma espécie de masterizada no filme, mas no caso era um filme em VIDEO. Mas nesse caso de agora estou trabalhando o som que vai para PELICULA e fica mais complicado.

Gostaria de poder trocar experiencias contigo para chegarmos a alguma conclusão.

Um abraço.

Mauricio Fonteles