Wavs, EDLs, mp3s and TC in devious plot - HELP!...

reid · 26th May 2007, 10:50 AM

Long winded background....

I''ve just finished a programme in which all the music cues were laid in to the edit as mp3s. A nasty problem cropped up when it came time to exchange the mp3s for their respective wavs prior to going to the dub.

According to the editor (who was using Avid Express Pro), his EDL saw all the mp3s as having a TC start time of 10.00.00.00, but the corresponding wavs (created at the same time in Logic, via a bounce) had varyingly different start times, making it impossible for his EDL to automatically place the files in the correct places. The wavs are exactly the same length as the mp3s, just their nominal start time was different. It took the poor bugger 3 hours to lay them in manually....

The question...

I can't find anything in Logic (or any other program) that allows the notional TC start time of an audio file to be set - is this possible to do? I'm half thinking this was probably an Avid issue, but it would be good to find a way to avoid this in the future.

Any ideas? Thanks!

reid · 26th May 2007, 04:12 PM

Now that I've got off my arse and RTFM, I've found that Logic created wavs are Broadcast Wavs, and as such include a time code stamp. But nothing in the manual to explain what timing Logic derives this stamp from when making the wav file. The SMPTE start point of the arrangement? The offset SMPTE display reading? Another fine example of Apple's belief that too much information is a BAD thing in their manuals....

Anyone throw any light on this?

Henchman · 26th May 2007, 05:26 PM

I could be wrong, but AFAIK, when you import mp3's into sessions, they are automatically converted into wav files.
If he woudl have replaced the files in the folder with the new wav files, using the same name, it should have put them in the right place.

But most important, why did he waste his time using mp3's in the first place, and why did it take him 3 hours to replace the mp3's with new wavs.T hat seems pretty slow to me.

Let this be a lesson for him. Always work with full bit depth wavs.

reid · 26th May 2007, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

I could be wrong, but AFAIK, when you import mp3's into sessions, they are automatically converted into wav files.

yup - you're wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

.... why did it take him 3 hours to replace the mp3's with new wavs.T hat seems pretty slow to me.

Given your lack of knowledge of the length of the project, the amount of music used and the number of edits made within each cue, I'm struggling to see how you're qualified to make that statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

Let this be a lesson for him. Always work with full bit depth wavs.

Um.......no. I think the lesson here is that we should all resist the temptation to reply to a forum post unless we've got something that's actually constructive to bring to the table.

So - back to the original point of the questions: can anyone shed any light on time stamping and Logic?

audiogeek1 · 26th May 2007, 08:39 PM

From my knowledge of mp3 I did not think that the metadata allowed for a timecode stamp. With restamping timecodes in Pro Tools when you load it in you have an option of creating a user time stamp. With logic I would assume has the same feature.

As for the mp3 time stamp in the avid. Was 10hours the start time of his session? This would be my only guess as to why they would all have the same time stamp even though an mp3 does not time stamp option. this in my belief would be avid putting a time stamp on it.

Now if you are going reply in an asshole way like you did with hench then do not bother and just ignore anything I said although I think it fits for the most part.

Mike

Henchman · 26th May 2007, 08:43 PM

AFAIK, when you import media into an Avid session or similar, anything that doesn't have a timestamp attached to it, the timestap defaultt will be the beginning of the session.

I'm assuming this is what happened , as European shows tend to start at the 10 hour point.

You also said that the wave files were created in Logic by bouncing them.
At this point, wherever the file is in THAT session, THAT will become the timestamped time for those files.
It works this way in PT's as well.
Now, the problem of course at the end is that when it came time to create the full bit depth session, the edl wanted to see a specific file type, an MP3. And I'm assuming that relinking to a different file type isn't possible, in spite of giving it the same name.

Again, I would strongly suggest not using different filetypes that will change at the end, but conver the mp3's to wav files when importing.

minister · 26th May 2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reid

yup - you're wrong.

So, an AVID works with MP3's natively? no conversion?

i think Mark is right, on all counts.

the AVID would have converted the files. the editor SHOULD be working with BWAV's. the MP3's would be converted. if she/he simply replaced then in the folder with identically name BWAV's the AVID would reconnect to them and save then the editing.

i think Mark is also right in that one ought not mix file formats, or, if you do, and don't have way to automatically update them, then expect to put in TIME to fix your problem.

3 hours may be right for all the edits.... depending on how many edits or how experienced the person was at making Music edits. but that time should have been expected because there was no planning.

reid · 27th May 2007, 09:43 PM

Thanks guys for all your replies - the digging I've been doing elsewhere confirms pretty much everything that you've all suggested. The flaw in the work coming from my end was via Logic - it does indeed take its timestamp from the start TC of each tracks arrangement. Of course, the manual doesn't state this and there's no feature within the program to edit or even view the timestamp once it's been created. And they call it Logic Pro....

Henchman - I owe you an apology for jumping down your throat in my reply to you; clearly you were trying to offer help, but I chose to interpret anything that wasn't a direct solution to my woes as an attempt to be antagonising. In my defence I can only offer some of the usual culprits - a too short post-pro schedule, weird political shit going on in the edit suite and no sleep for the previous 36 hours. I think next time I'll try getting some rest before deciding to come out swinging. Sorry fella.

Henchman · 27th May 2007, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reid

Henchman - I owe you an apology for jumping down your throat in my reply to you; clearly you were trying to offer help, but I chose to interpret anything that wasn't a direct solution to my woes as an attempt to be antagonising. In my defence I can only offer some of the usual culprits - a too short post-pro schedule, weird political shit going on in the edit suite and no sleep for the previous 36 hours. I think next time I'll try getting some rest before deciding to come out swinging. Sorry fella.

No problem. Been there.

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26th May 2007, 10:50 AM	#1
reid Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Berlin-London Posts: 613	Wavs, EDLs, mp3s and TC in devious plot - HELP!... Long winded background.... I''ve just finished a programme in which all the music cues were laid in to the edit as mp3s. A nasty problem cropped up when it came time to exchange the mp3s for their respective wavs prior to going to the dub. According to the editor (who was using Avid Express Pro), his EDL saw all the mp3s as having a TC start time of 10.00.00.00, but the corresponding wavs (created at the same time in Logic, via a bounce) had varyingly different start times, making it impossible for his EDL to automatically place the files in the correct places. The wavs are exactly the same length as the mp3s, just their nominal start time was different. It took the poor bugger 3 hours to lay them in manually.... The question... I can't find anything in Logic (or any other program) that allows the notional TC start time of an audio file to be set - is this possible to do? I'm half thinking this was probably an Avid issue, but it would be good to find a way to avoid this in the future. Any ideas? Thanks!

26th May 2007, 05:26 PM	#3
Henchman Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: LA, USA Posts: 4,031	I could be wrong, but AFAIK, when you import mp3's into sessions, they are automatically converted into wav files. If he woudl have replaced the files in the folder with the new wav files, using the same name, it should have put them in the right place. But most important, why did he waste his time using mp3's in the first place, and why did it take him 3 hours to replace the mp3's with new wavs.T hat seems pretty slow to me. Let this be a lesson for him. Always work with full bit depth wavs. __________________ www.markhensley.tv IMDB Credits

26th May 2007, 08:43 PM	#6
Henchman Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: LA, USA Posts: 4,031	AFAIK, when you import media into an Avid session or similar, anything that doesn't have a timestamp attached to it, the timestap defaultt will be the beginning of the session. I'm assuming this is what happened , as European shows tend to start at the 10 hour point. You also said that the wave files were created in Logic by bouncing them. At this point, wherever the file is in THAT session, THAT will become the timestamped time for those files. It works this way in PT's as well. Now, the problem of course at the end is that when it came time to create the full bit depth session, the edl wanted to see a specific file type, an MP3. And I'm assuming that relinking to a different file type isn't possible, in spite of giving it the same name. Again, I would strongly suggest not using different filetypes that will change at the end, but conver the mp3's to wav files when importing. __________________ www.markhensley.tv IMDB Credits

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26th May 2007, 04:12 PM	#2
reid Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Berlin-London Posts: 613	Now that I've got off my arse and RTFM, I've found that Logic created wavs are Broadcast Wavs, and as such include a time code stamp. But nothing in the manual to explain what timing Logic derives this stamp from when making the wav file. The SMPTE start point of the arrangement? The offset SMPTE display reading? Another fine example of Apple's belief that too much information is a BAD thing in their manuals.... Anyone throw any light on this?

26th May 2007, 08:39 PM	#5
audiogeek1 Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Near the Salty Water Posts: 106	From my knowledge of mp3 I did not think that the metadata allowed for a timecode stamp. With restamping timecodes in Pro Tools when you load it in you have an option of creating a user time stamp. With logic I would assume has the same feature. As for the mp3 time stamp in the avid. Was 10hours the start time of his session? This would be my only guess as to why they would all have the same time stamp even though an mp3 does not time stamp option. this in my belief would be avid putting a time stamp on it. Now if you are going reply in an asshole way like you did with hench then do not bother and just ignore anything I said although I think it fits for the most part. Mike

27th May 2007, 09:43 PM	#8
reid Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Berlin-London Posts: 613	Thanks guys for all your replies - the digging I've been doing elsewhere confirms pretty much everything that you've all suggested. The flaw in the work coming from my end was via Logic - it does indeed take its timestamp from the start TC of each tracks arrangement. Of course, the manual doesn't state this and there's no feature within the program to edit or even view the timestamp once it's been created. And they call it Logic Pro.... Henchman - I owe you an apology for jumping down your throat in my reply to you; clearly you were trying to offer help, but I chose to interpret anything that wasn't a direct solution to my woes as an attempt to be antagonising. In my defence I can only offer some of the usual culprits - a too short post-pro schedule, weird political shit going on in the edit suite and no sleep for the previous 36 hours. I think next time I'll try getting some rest before deciding to come out swinging. Sorry fella.