Professional studio for final mix? levels?

[semantick]

I am talking to a potential client about the post audio for their film. I worked on a feature-length a couple of years ago but would like more information, as that was my first film and I want to improve. The previous film I mixed at home rather than recommend a professional production house.

For this current film, I am considering adding into my quote the cost of a professional studio final mix, rather than a quote that relies completely on my home studio (read: not acoustically-tuned) monitoring space. BUT, unlike my previous film, this one should not contain separate stems for dialog, fx and ambiance, as the production track is probably useable. Therefore, the only real adjustments that would need to made in the final mixdown would be level adjustments - we wouldn't be adding reverb for effects, EQ for dialog, etc. etc. I am wondering how necessary you think it is to bring this film into a professional studio for the final mix considering its needs. (And, it's an indie film.)

Another question I have is about output levels. I read Georgia's very detailed response (thank you! although it was to another user's question) re different levels depending on the destination of the film. But this is an indie film with the only current destination being submissions for festivals. I need to create some kind of stereo mix for layback to DVD now and would like some idea of the best overall level.

Thanks in advance!

Semantick

[semantick]

I can't seem to edit my original post, so I'll repeat the gist of that attempted edit post here and hope that this doesn't duplicate my first edit attempt!

I want to add to my original post that one possibility would be to mix on headphones (rather than my monitors) at home. I'm guessing that this would be better esp. in the case of adding reverb/EQ - no sound bouncing off the walls of my not-acoustically-tuned audio set-up. But in terms of this film in which I only need to be concerned with setting levels......? (make sure you read my original post before replying to this one).

Semantick

[soundboy]

The question you want to ask is about dynamic range not level. Mixing for a theatrical release has a broader dynamic range than somthing going straigt to DVD. If you are mixing for DVD, level is relative. You have no control over the consumers playback level, thus you need a narrower dynamic range so they don't have to watch your film with the remote in hand.
I mix low budget features at my home studio (that is calibrated to 85db) and still budget for a larger stage at the end of the mix. My room translates pretty well, but I still find myself making EQ and reverb adjustments, as well as levels. There is no substitute for a theater. Oh, and only mix on headphones if you put a disclaimer on the DVD packaging that says "this film should only be watched with headphones on".

[Jazzpunk]

While listening to movies on headphones is a fun way to analyze the details from a film you like, it definitely does not represent the end viewers actual listening experience.

[soundguydave]

i don't know about you, but I'd be exhausted if I had to mix with headphones on for an extended period of time.

[semantick]

Alright, well that last comment was not necessary, but.....

This film is currently intended for indie film festivals....it seems like you are recommending a studio with a theater mix environment in this case (which may be more than the director can afford). One studio I spoke with (they don't have a theater environment) seemed to be implying that they did one general mix, whether intended for DVD or theater. I am guessing that indie filmmakers generally pay for one mix, at least while they are still on the festival circuit (i.e. before any later decision re DVD's). Any more feedback would be welcome.

Semantick

Originally Posted by soundboy

The question you want to ask is about dynamic range not level. Mixing for a theatrical release has a broader dynamic range than somthing going straigt to DVD. If you are mixing for DVD, level is relative. You have no control over the consumers playback level, thus you need a narrower dynamic range so they don't have to watch your film with the remote in hand.
I mix low budget features at my home studio (that is calibrated to 85db) and still budget for a larger stage at the end of the mix. My room translates pretty well, but I still find myself making EQ and reverb adjustments, as well as levels. There is no substitute for a theater. Oh, and only mix on headphones if you put a disclaimer on the DVD packaging that says "this film should only be watched with headphones on".

[soundboy]

Just a little humor, don't sweat it. For the really low budget projects, I mix for DVD release. If it gets a theatrical release, It will probably get a remix.

[semantick]

Originally Posted by soundboy

Just a little humor, don't sweat it. For the really low budget projects, I mix for DVD release. If it gets a theatrical release, It will probably get a remix.

I think I'll just mix it at home with $10 headphones, mono, panned hard left, with cathedral reverb and an additional traffic track.

[minister]

i read from a BIG H-Wood designer who says you make traffic with tire rolls and running water. everything else is trained lion sounds......

[philper]

I'd say that since you will know the film much better than a mixer you might hire at a dubstage you should go ahead and mix the thing on your own system the best you can, and then make a session with as many stems as you feel are needed (2 or 3 dx, fills, 2 or 3 sfx, as many music as is needed for how your composer broke out the instruments etc), as well as the original OMF export tracks from the editor, all in sync to picture. That way they can proceed to tweak relative levels and eq and imaging without redoing all the work you've done, probably for most of the movie. If there is a serious concern about something you did then the original edit tracks are right there in sync for them to work on. This approach is especially useful re: noise reduction, where you might not want to push more affordable tools too far, and the dubstage guy can start with your work and apply his or her experience and higher-end tools to the job.

Philip Perkins CAS

[Eric L]

Originally Posted by semantick

BUT, unlike my previous film, this one should not contain separate stems for dialog, fx and ambiance, as the production track is probably useable.

Your confusion is confusing me. Don't take this as a personal attack, because it is not meant to be one, but what exactly does this statement mean? What does the usability of the production track have to do with generating stems to mix with? Usually you would want to end up with at least DX, MX and SFX stems for the final mix. Additional breakdowns are helpful, but not always realistic. If you mix in the box, you do not need to print these stems out ahead of time, but you should have your routing set up so that you can print the client stems and an M&E at the end of the project. If the DX edit is done correctly, you can get a very close to fully filled M&E without doing any additional mixing. Your client may not think they need this at the moment, but if they ever hope to sell the film (and that is the point isn't it) then all distributors require this as a deliver spec.

Originally Posted by semantick

Therefore, the only real adjustments that would need to made in the final mixdown would be level adjustments - we wouldn't be adding reverb for effects, EQ for dialog, etc. etc. I am wondering how necessary you think it is to bring this film into a professional studio for the final mix considering its needs. (And, it's an indie film.)

Well, then your not really mixing. Level adjustments is something done by the video editor in FCP or Avid. Mixing requires and demands reverb, eq and panning. These mix choices can not be made with headphones! And if the film is destined for theatrical playback, even if it is just festivals, then you need to mix in as similar an environment as possible.

I can't comment on how necessary it is to bring this film into a pro studio as I have never seen it nor heard it. I will tell you that the things you listed as not needed for this film are what separates pro mixers from amateur sound editors. Do yourself and the client a favor and temp it out as best you can and bring it to a pro mixer for two days and have him or her give you the best temp dx mix they can. If you premix mx and sfx then you should be able to get a decent festival mix in two days. It's not so much the facility as it is the person sitting behind the console.

[semantick]

[QUOTE=philper;1216902]I'd say that since you will know the film much better than a mixer you might hire at a dubstage you should go ahead and mix the thing on your own system the best you can, and then make a session with as many stems as you feel are needed (2 or 3 dx, fills, 2 or 3 sfx, as many music as is needed for how your composer broke out the instruments etc), as well as the original OMF export tracks from the editor, all in sync to picture. That way they can proceed to tweak relative levels and eq and imaging without redoing all the work you've done, probably for most of the movie. If there is a serious concern about something you did then the original edit tracks are right there in sync for them to work on. This approach is especially useful re: noise reduction, where you might not want to push more affordable tools too far, and the dubstage guy can start with your work and apply his or her experience and higher-end tools to the job.

Thank you. This is very helpful information and a decent solution in general, and your response is one of the more decently-stated responses. But actually, I did not explain my situation clearly and this is making people's responses largely not-what-I-was-looking for, so I need to explain in more detail, which I'll do in a separate post at a reasonable hour of the day. (I started explaining but am exhausted, at 2:00a.m.)