Recorder for collecting SFX

[charleslee]

Hi mates,

Coincidentally, I am thinking of recording some ambiences in surround (5.1?) too.

Another coincidence is, the surround mic that I was looking at, is also a "H4" (Holophone G4-SuperMINI)

It has

• Internal Dolby® Pro-Logic II Encoded line-level stereo output for connection to camera ir stereo recorder available on single 3.5mm stereo female Mini-plug Jack
• Dolby® Pro-Logic II Output is compatible with Dolby® Pro-Logic II and all similar 5.1 channel stereo matrix decoding schemes.

Thus, I am wondering, if I am getting the Prologic encoded line signal out of the H4 (Holophone), does it still go thru the H4 (Zoom)'s gain stages (zoom's micpre)?


One main reason why I am choosing the H4 (Zoom) over M-Audio's MicroTrack is that the H4 uses SD cards, and I have a couple of spare SD cards (2Gbs, 1Gbs, 256Mb..) lying around since I changed my mobile phone (my new phone uses MiniSD).

Any comments on the inherent signal noise of the H4 (Zoom) yet?

[JesseJ]

Yeah.. And I am still waiting for the Zoom H2 to start shipping for europe... I was wishing to use it for collecting a shit-ton of ambience in the countryside and archipelago this summer on my vacation, but looks like Zoom is not up for it until september 17th... sad

Anyone have a Zoom H2 yet? I believe it's available now in the US.

I recieved a piano recording made on the Zoom H4 for a film project and the noise level on the file was quite high. Still I am not sure if the noise was all from the H4 because I don't know how my client had digitized the stuff. I wouldn't wonder if they used some woodoo gear inbetween, so I want to know also...

So how is that Zoom stuff?

[trazan]

Just got the Edirol R-09 in the mail yesterday, and the damn thing is much too noisy If I have to bring external pres and mics along I could just as well bring a laptop. The R-09 was perfect in every other respect though; small, easy to operate and sounded pretty good...except for the hiss.

Still searching then. Are there no small portable thingy's with onboard pre's/mics with decent noise floor?

[starcrash13]

The Sound Devices 702 is still the best budget option and well worth the price if you consider the cost of high-end professional mic preamps and add to that the ruggedness and relative compactness that the unit has. In its case, strapped around your shoulder, it's pretty lightweight and manageable.

These cheapo compact recorders are cool and they have their place but the analogy comparing them to a digital point-and-shoot camera is spot on. They're great for "snapshots" and to travel with, but you probably won't be winning many Pulitzers or displaying any fine art prints in a gallery from a $400 Canon SureShot. It's all about the lens and with our recorders, it's all about the pres. The SD pres are quiet, powerful, and transparent and the built-in limiter is great, too.

Doesn't buying a MiniMe and a bulky battery pack so you can get some decent quality field recordings with a pocket recorder seem a bit silly? At that point, it defeats the purpose as far as convenience and portablity and ends up costing nearly the same.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

The Sound Devices 702 is still the best budget option and well worth the price if you consider the cost of high-end professional mic preamps and add to that the ruggedness and relative compactness that the unit has. In its case, strapped around your shoulder, it's pretty lightweight and manageable.

These cheapo compact recorders are cool and they have their place but the analogy comparing them to a digital point-and-shoot camera is spot on. They're great for "snapshots" and to travel with, but you probably won't be winning many Pulitzers or displaying any fine art prints in a gallery from a $400 Canon SureShot. It's all about the lens and with our recorders, it's all about the pres. The SD pres are quiet, powerful, and transparent and the built-in limiter is great, too.

Doesn't buying a MiniMe and a bulky battery pack so you can get some decent quality field recordings with a pocket recorder seem a bit silly? At that point, it defeats the purpose as far as convenience and portablity and ends up costing nearly the same.

I love the SD recorders- I rent them quite a bit actually, but they do not get the sound that my FR-2 does-

Charles Maynes

[uosdwis]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I love the SD recorders- I rent them quite a bit actually, but they do not get the sound that my FR-2 does-

Charles Maynes

Charles,

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Thanks.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by uosdwis

Charles,

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Thanks.

It comes down to the analog limiters on the FR2- they are very sweet with loud effects such as guns and crashes.

Charles Maynes

[uosdwis]

I can see how that would be a plus for the kind of work you do! But would you say that the preamps on the FR2 are on par with the Sound Devices preamps?

I'm looking into all kinds of recorders, but the lack of M/S monitoring on most of the semi-pro machines are steering me in the direction of a SD unit. Unless someone can offer a practical/economical workaround?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by uosdwis

I can see how that would be a plus for the kind of work you do! But would you say that the preamps on the FR2 are on par with the Sound Devices preamps?

I'm looking into all kinds of recorders, but the lack of M/S monitoring on most of the semi-pro machines are steering me in the direction of a SD unit. Unless someone can offer a practical/economical workaround?

I do not use M/S much myself, I do have a Shure FP33 (the SD Mixpre) which I use with the FR2 for stuff I need a little lower noise floor with. I would say though that the FR2 and SD pre's are different beasts which are not really comparable. They both have qualities that make them good, though If I had to chose between my FR2/Mixpre rig and a 2 channel Sound Devices recorder, I would keep my present gear.

Charles Maynes

[soundboy]

Anyone tried the Korg MR 1 yet?

[charleslee]

so, if I have my own preamps and send out a stereo line signal, will the noise level in those cheapo 2-trk recorders' built-in mic preamp still gets recorded?

cheap/affordable = ZoomH4 / M-Audio MicroTrack

expensive = Sound Devices..

Thanks!

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by charleslee

so, if I have my own preamps and send out a stereo line signal, will the noise level in those cheapo 2-trk recorders' built-in mic preamp still gets recorded?

cheap/affordable = ZoomH4 / M-Audio MicroTrack

expensive = Sound Devices..

Thanks!

I believe the analog line in, like most consumer/ prosumer devices, still goes through the preamps but is attenuated to keep the signal at line level. If you have a way to go in the S/PDIF input, you'll likely get a much cleaner recording.

That said, I still think that these alternative "budget" workarounds are no better or that much cheaper than a 702. Remember, you'll need pro-quality quiet pres, phantom power, a portable battery pack, and ideally a digital S/PDIF output. You could get the MiniMe ($715 USD) which has good pres, phantom power, and S/PDIF out, but you'll still need to buy a battery pack. Add all that up, plus the $300-600 for the "budget" recorder and you start to get pretty darn close to the $1850 USD for the SD702. Plus, you'll have a pretty ridiculous "portable" rig with a bunch of crap dangling off it. The 702 has everything built-in to one sturdy unit. Believe me, I'm not not a guy who is looking to spend thousands of dollars if I don't have to, so I've looked into this pretty thoroughly and decided that the best VALUE and QUALITY is still the Sound Devices.

On the other hand, I'd also be curious if anyone is using the Fostex FR2 LE. For the price, I wonder how it measures up. Are the preamps acceptably quiet? Might be a good replacement for my MicroTrack for travel and icognito stuff. Is it small enough?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

I believe the analog line in, like most consumer/ prosumer devices, still goes through the preamps but is attenuated to keep the signal at line level. If you have a way to go in the S/PDIF input, you'll likely get a much cleaner recording.

That said, I still think that these alternative "budget" workarounds are no better or that much cheaper than a 702. Remember, you'll need pro-quality quiet pres, phantom power, a portable battery pack, and ideally a digital S/PDIF output. You could get the MiniMe ($715 USD) which has good pres, phantom power, and S/PDIF out, but you'll still need to buy a battery pack. Add all that up, plus the $300-600 for the "budget" recorder and you start to get pretty darn close to the $1850 USD for the SD702. Plus, you'll have a pretty ridiculous "portable" rig with a bunch of crap dangling off it. The 702 has everything built-in to one sturdy unit. Believe me, I'm not not a guy who is looking to spend thousands of dollars if I don't have to, so I've looked into this pretty thoroughly and decided that the best VALUE and QUALITY is still the Sound Devices.

On the other hand, I'd also be curious if anyone is using the Fostex FR2 LE. For the price, I wonder how it measures up. Are the preamps acceptably quiet? Might be a good replacement for my MicroTrack for travel and icognito stuff. Is it small enough?

Also- buying an SD recorder is really an investment- It will last for a LONG time, and you will not need to replace it- That cannot be said for the cheaper recorders...


Charles Maynes

[pollyserial]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

Also- buying an SD recorder is really an investment- It will last for a LONG time, and you will not need to replace it- That cannot be said for the cheaper recorders...


Charles Maynes

+1 on that! IMHO the SD recorders are miles above the other CF recorders that I have experience with (the marantz units), in build quality and also, importantly, ease of use. They are thoughtfully and carefully engineered for production use, in terms of both hardware and software. Also, SD seems committed to improving the firmware, etc., and making improvements available to owners of older units, in contrast to other manufacturers who seem to want people to buy new units to get new features.

[audiothings]

Originally Posted by uosdwis

I'm looking into all kinds of recorders, but the lack of M/S monitoring on most of the semi-pro machines are steering me in the direction of a SD unit. Unless someone can offer a practical/economical workaround?

Here is your solution.



Its a Sowter transformer based m/s decoder. Goes between your headphones and the headphone output on your recorder.

of course, this means that you have to do your decoding in post. And you're going to have to find a way to insert a potentiometer somewhere in the path if you want to vary the m and s ratios. And you will lose a little headphone level because its passively splitting the 's' signal.

If i could afford it, i'd buy SD702. The multiple headphone output routing options alone make it worth it. But even the 702 does not allow you to vary the m and s rations for the headphone output stage. Its the machine's one single shortcoming, IMHO. Maybe a firmware update or something has fixed this?

[charleslee]

the mic setup that I am looking at (Holophone H4) already have micpres built-in .. not sure if its the best, but this is the only model that would encode all the 6 mic signals into a stereo signal so that I only need a stereo /2trk recorder & not a multitrack recorder.

[NLP]

Mayah Flashman is also very, very good!

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by NLP

Mayah Flashman is also very, very good!

£1,000 for a 16bit recorder? Sheesh! That's more expensive than the Sound Devices 702. What's good about it?

[soundboy]

Anyone used the Fostex FR2 LE yet?

[uosdwis]

Originally Posted by audiothings

Here is your solution. [...]

Thanks! That's probably a decent solution, if perhaps a little on the guerilla side of things. I'm not sure how critical M/S monitoring really is, but I do know I want to decode the actual files in post.

Part of my interest in various solutions other than a SD unit is that I already have a Metric Halo ULN-2 for my Mac. I am very, very impressed with the quality of both the preamps and the conversion in this box, so I guess I'm somehow trying to fit it into the new field recording scheme. As most of you probably know, it can be battery powered through various solutions (and bus powered, but I reckon I rarely want to record on my laptop while in the field...).

So two questions keep bothering me:
1) Do the preamps/conversion on the Sound Devices recorders hold up to the ULN-2?
2) Do I really want to lug around the ULN-2, plus battery, plus a "bit-bucket" recorder (that won't let me monitor a decoded M/S signal and lacks the occasionally life-saving limiter)?

If 1) = YES than 2) = NO. But I won't be keeping the ULN-2 if I get a 702, since that money needs to go into my mic collection. And then I have to use the 702 as a front end for my Mac (via Mbox S/PDIF), which I guess is feasible but not ideal (I do music, too).

The Korg MR-1000 interests me, as I could buy that and still afford to keep the ULN-2. If the DSD thing lives up to the promises, that recorder could work well both on its own and hooked up to the ULN-2 preamps when I do the critical stuff (nature recording, ambiences). Converting the DSD files wouldn't be a problem for me. But, I have my doubts about the durability and ergonomics of the recorder itself.

Decisions, decisions... Anyone care to comment?

Thanks!

[NLP]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

£1,000 for a 16bit recorder? Sheesh! That's more expensive than the Sound Devices 702. What's good about it?

Well I have first model (16bit), now they have new model (flashman 2). So used model "1" is much cheaper. Flashman also have an mpeg & mp3 encoder and decoder, its more sturdy, more portable (smaller-you can hold it in one hand), very good preamp (havent compared with 702), you can edit on location,...
...and yes I agree that for that amount of money 702 is much better if you are in film production.

[Mazaga]

Originally Posted by Jan Karamell

I guess the built-in microphones is the most important part of the sound quality question.
How are they in the H4?

I have one H4 I don't think it is bad.
Good equipment and the streo it makes is quite good
I use it for inteview and long distance ambiences (no TC required)

That said, in some recordings using the H4 I noticed a little noise in the backgroud...
I don't know where it cames from but seems like the engine working inside ,,,I'm not sure. The shot was made in 16/44.1

I also used the mic inputs with two shotguns. Both of them (internal mics and shot- guns) are fine.

Anyway..i like it

My 2c
M.

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by Mazaga

That said, in some recordings using the H4 I noticed a little noise in the backgroud...
I don't know where it cames from but seems like the engine working inside ,,,I'm not sure.

Uhh...ok. Well, that's the problem with the budget recorders isn't it? Self noise. Noisy pres. Handling noise. If these things aren't a concern, then don't spend more than $400 USD on a recorder.

I love my little MicroTrack, but I know that when I get home to upload my recordings, I have to do a lot of mastering including an EQ to notch out a high-pitch electronic whine that's on every recording.

[smsjr]

It's like anything else in this field, quality comes with a price. Doesn't mean it can't be done with a less expensive unit, but as Pascal has just pointed out, you may have more work to do in post. I always thought the pres on the Tascam DAP1 were mediocre at best, but didn't stop me from using it. And I'm sure others achieved brilliant recordings with it once they found out the nuances.

Think about how clear cut this would all be if we were all given unlimited budgets. You would rely more on what sounds good, what gets the job done the best and fastest. Unfortunately, most of us don't have that luxury (otherwise I'd be sitting in front of a pretty amazing set of monitors in the mix room right now). The key is to set your budget for what you truly can afford, narrow down the search to the items that fit within that budget (including accessories), and then compare all devices in question (actually trying them out) before purchasing.

I love my 744, but many people could probably make an argument for an even better recorder, but it does everything I need. I think the 702 would be a perfect recorder for someone needing top notch pres, relatively compact, and built really, really well. But can you get by with something less expensive - yes, if it does what you need it to do. If it doesn't, consider renting. There's nothing wrong with renting.

Steve

[E Baxter Put]

Originally Posted by soundboy

Anyone used the Fostex FR2 LE yet?

I haven't heard it in person yet, but I have read lots of positive reviews about it's sound quality and good sounding pres in the taperssection.com forums.

Supposedly the headphone amplifier is noisy, but the actual recordings are good.

The Oade brothers sell a modded version as well that replaces a lot of the cheap components in the input path.

Fostex FR2LE Memory Recorder Oade Upgrades !

I think this is my next machine.

[LK7]

I was thinking of getting the Oade Brothers Ambient Edirol R4. Anyone have any experience with this company?

[philper]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I do not use M/S much myself, I do have a Shure FP33 (the SD Mixpre) which I use with the FR2 for stuff I need a little lower noise floor with. I would say though that the FR2 and SD pre's are different beasts which are not really comparable. They both have qualities that make them good, though If I had to chose between my FR2/Mixpre rig and a 2 channel Sound Devices recorder, I would keep my present gear.

Charles Maynes

The FP33 is a 3 input mixer, out for awhile now. The Shure MixPre clone is called something else (FP24?). I have a 702 and would describe the sound of its limiters as being like those in the SD 302, which are different from those in the MixPre. I've ended up liking the MixPre pres and dynamics for boom mics and the 302 for wireless etc.

Philip Perkins

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by philper

The FP33 is a 3 input mixer, out for awhile now. The Shure MixPre clone is called something else (FP24?). I have a 702 and would describe the sound of its limiters as being like those in the SD 302, which are different from those in the MixPre. I've ended up liking the MixPre pres and dynamics for boom mics and the 302 for wireless etc.

Philip Perkins

It is the FP24... Great box for the money....


Charles Maynes