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#61
1st November 2009
Old 1st November 2009
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
You can only use "diegetic" if you graduated from film school....

hahaha, good one!

You can break down the FX side into:

BGs: Background ambiences, also called "atmos" in the UK
Hard FX: doors, guns, cars, doors, phones, whooshes, hits, etc
Foley: Footsteps, props (keys, plates, hand pats, gun mvt,etc) basically the "sound of people doing something" can't remember who described it like that, and cloth mvt.

Of course there's more, but that's the basics
Hope that helped, good luck!

best,

Joe
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#62
9th January 2010
Old 9th January 2010
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If you wonder about terms to define different types of sound, I could never recommend this book enough: Audio-vision: Sound on Screen by Michel Chion

I know this is a late reply but whoever might read this information can only thank me :P
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#63
15th January 2010
Old 15th January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyh View Post
If you wonder about terms to define different types of sound, I could never recommend this book enough: Audio-vision: Sound on Screen by Michel Chion

I know this is a late reply but whoever might read this information can only thank me :P
looking for it now. thank you
#64
25th January 2010
Old 25th January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
You can only use "diegetic" if you graduated from film school....
Just wanted to bump up THAT quote again... currently on a project FROM a first-time who just...graduated from film school. Several uses of that word in the spotting session.
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#65
5th April 2010
Old 5th April 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Dubbing mixer is the UK version of Rerecording Mixer.

A "Dubber" in US film terminology would be a playback device.
I wish it was as simple as that....

The large film places over here in London use the term Re-recording mixer for their guys. I think this is because they're likely to have a US crew come over for a dry hire or a colab and it's easier to use the same terminology to avoid any potential confusion.

All other places, especially television audio use the term dubbing mixer - Think this comes from the fact that you 'dub' to tape when you're done (essentially re-record)....

A true case of Tomatoe/Tomato

Just my 2
#66
6th April 2010
Old 6th April 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyh View Post
If you wonder about terms to define different types of sound, I could never recommend this book enough: Audio-vision: Sound on Screen by Michel Chion
Chion isn't a practitioner and can safety be ignored -- I've never been caught in the open not understanding someone because they were using GRM-theory-speak. I think he gets so much attention because he's the only person to ever write a book on film sound theory, but a lot of what he has to say is conjecture and personal preference.

The subjects in LoBrutto have much more to say about film sound and its correspondence (or lack thereof) in language, and is much more descriptive, as opposed to prescriptive.

But everyone makes fun of me for referring to durations in feet, so whaddu I know?
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#67
7th April 2010
Old 7th April 2010
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I call myself a mixer. Usually a F-ixer.
#68
6th August 2010
Old 6th August 2010
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I usually call them Splits and not Stems,I hear it both ways all the time.
#69
6th August 2010
Old 6th August 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry2580 View Post
I usually call them Splits and not Stems,I hear it both ways all the time.
Not always interchangable. Splits could be the constituents of a pre-mix stem that you might need to be split-out. FYI, I'm in London right now mixing score and the English call music pre-mixes "Stems" as well.
#70
13th September 2010
Old 13th September 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimepoch View Post
Wow, can I just give you a *big* thank you as now I feel like I am not going crazy! I felt like I was missing something, but now I understand, a lot of this comes from the older ways to do things, that still do happen in many studios.

I'm not a film school student at all, but I can say, I am very much not impressed with the people in film schools doing audio. I say this because most of the people I do audio for out of film school (because all the practice I can get makes me better) seem to REALLY like working with me and NOT working with students. Anything I get from them typically is absolutely worthless.

I had one conversation where, in the film, a character jiggles a handle 3 times, then knocks on a door like 8 times. They wanted to provide the foley for this. I get the foley, it's someone jiggling a handle twice and knocking 3 times. I wrote them a nice LONG email about, hey, why not record MORE than what you need so you can pick and chose the best stuff to use. These are audio students in school. You'd think they'd have a clue about....audio for film! I am not even touching the audio QUALITY that they sent me. This same person, I requested some ambience from the different locations they shot. I get ONE file and it's ten seconds long. There are people talking in another room. worthless.

All in all, I am glad to be starting in on this *next* wave of post production ITB. Don't worry, I've been involved in enough ITB and OTB discussions, I have no question each has their pluses and minuses. As I say, do what makes you happy!

And again, seriously thanks. I am trying to get a head start on so many things before I start working on the next film!!!

Rick
Asylum Studio Productions
There are also just very few sound people. We only have 4 other Sound Design emphasis's besides myself and 52 directors this year, and there is just so little emphasis on sound design, it's basically all how the student teaches himself. The problem with this that I have encountered is that I can do the whole process from pre-prod til surround mix, but it's a process I created myself, which is nothing similar to that of the industry. Also, since I came more from the creative side and not the technical, I don't know where to start learning about all the plugins, the recording equipment, etc. Luckily I started coming to sites like these to get that information, and it's paying off. So, thanks for the thread, it's a big help to people like myself.
#71
1st November 2011
Old 1st November 2011
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Great Post-Term and definition Website!

One of the best reference/definition sites I've found. Very comprehensive.

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#72
2nd November 2011
Old 2nd November 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Lt View Post
Not always interchangable. Splits could be the constituents of a pre-mix stem that you might need to be split-out.
The split/stem issue is quite common for us on a daily basis in the TV world. Either one is used interchangeably to reference DIA, NARR, FX, MUSIC. However, there have been a number of instances where I've had to label 5.1 channels as "stems", where the N, D, M, E become "splits"

For example, just looking at my spec sheets for a few networks here's what comes up:

AETN/History Channel - Splits
Discovery Channel - Stems
National Geographic - Splits

MTV also refers to "stems" as the separate channels of a 5.1 mix.

Charles, how do most of the LA gents (and ladies!) refer to the channels of a 5.1 mix?

In all honesty, I started in film (in NYC, not LA) and everything was "stems", but this whole TV fiasco has really fussed with my cool jargon. LET'S STANDARDIZE THIS S***!

P.S. - It's very common for the term "splits" to be used in the commercial world too. Both my fiancée and I do ad work and it's much more common than "stems".
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#73
2nd November 2011
Old 2nd November 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangroom View Post
The split/stem issue is quite common for us on a daily basis in the TV world. Either one is used interchangeably to reference DIA, NARR, FX, MUSIC. However, there have been a number of instances where I've had to label 5.1 channels as "stems", where the N, D, M, E become "splits"

For example, just looking at my spec sheets for a few networks here's what comes up:

AETN/History Channel - Splits
Discovery Channel - Stems
National Geographic - Splits

MTV also refers to "stems" as the separate channels of a 5.1 mix.

Charles, how do most of the LA gents (and ladies!) refer to the channels of a 5.1 mix?

In all honesty, I started in film (in NYC, not LA) and everything was "stems", but this whole TV fiasco has really fussed with my cool jargon. LET'S STANDARDIZE THIS S***!

P.S. - It's very common for the term "splits" to be used in the commercial world too. Both my fiancée and I do ad work and it's much more common than "stems".
over the last few years the issue has gotten less clear than it once was- but I will layout my current understanding of the terminology.

Stems will be the final broad element groups, assigned to speaker outputs- they would be DIA, MX and FX.

Predubs would be subsets of those stems- IE, Foley, GRP ADR, Atmos, FX, Design, DIA etc.... these would not necessarily be tied to the final output format of the mix- but could be configured to match the needs of the track itself- the foley might L-C-R, L-C-R, C, C for instance.... the way the predub (or premix) is laid out is to allow some flexibility for the mixer to raise or lower elements with some flexibility. A Stem, in contrast, will be expected to run at reference level.
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#74
4th November 2011
Old 4th November 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
the foley might L-C-R, L-C-R, C, C for instance....
Could you elaborate on this? What is represented by each grouping? Props LCR, Footsteps LCR…?
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#75
4th November 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangroom View Post
Could you elaborate on this? What is represented by each grouping? Props LCR, Footsteps LCR…?
well again, things change, and each show goes its way....

sometimes Props might be folded into effects - FS are usually kept separate, but can be folded into effects as well-
#76
7th November 2011
Old 7th November 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
well again, things change, and each show goes its way....

sometimes Props might be folded into effects - FS are usually kept separate, but can be folded into effects as well-
Aadahl and Greg Russell were telling me that "Transformers III" had no props predubs, it was all folded into FX. On Ottosson's shows we don't get that extreme, but the props predubs are usually pretty boring. It just makes sense for the mixer to dub most props together with FX, the stuff we cut as effects is often foley-ish, and a lot of the foley elements they record don't work without FX layers.
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#77
7th November 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvcapra View Post
Aadahl and Greg Russell were telling me that "Transformers III" had no props predubs, it was all folded into FX. On Ottosson's shows we don't get that extreme, but the props predubs are usually pretty boring. It just makes sense for the mixer to dub most props together with FX, the stuff we cut as effects is often foley-ish, and a lot of the foley elements they record don't work without FX layers.
I totally agree Jamey- especially with the way shows have been going in the last few years- before, it was always a matter of trying to avoid using the props in lieu of servicable pfx, but it is what it is nowadays....
#78
12th November 2011
Old 12th November 2011
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A stem is a generic term that refers to any sub-mix of a complete mix, which when played at unity with all of the other stems (or sub-mixes) form the complete mix. Examples of this are film stems (dialogue, music, effects) which together form the complete final mix of a film, or the stems which together form the complete mix of the musical score as delivered to the re-recording stage by the composer.

A bit of history. Prior to the early 1970's virtually all films were mixed in mono. Theaters were standardized with an Academy roll-off (if I remember correctly it was 12db per octave beginning at 8khz). The Academy roll-off was also applied to the mixing stage monitors so that the mixer would naturally equalize to provide the necessary pre-emphasis during the course of mixing. The timeline was measured in feet and frames. There was a 12 foot Academy Leader with countdown and a "2" frame at 9 feet from Picture Start. The first frame of picture would occur at 12 feet.

The genesis of the term "stem", at least in my experience, goes back to the widespread introduction of stereo into the world of film mixing. When films were mixed onto analog magnetic film, in mono, the master was recorded on a 3 track 35mm film recorder. The three tracks were dedicated to dialogue, music, and sound effects. This allowed for the production of foreign language versions and accurate music timings. When Dolby Stereo was introduced in the early 70's we had to be able to continue to provide for this flexibility while also using the (then) state of the art 4-track film recorder as the master recorder. The 4 tracks were dedicated to left, center, right, and surround and the master had to be recorded on three 4-track film recorders. These were referred to as Stem Masters and would have to be mixed together at unity into a matrixed Dolby Stereo Printmaster before the optical track negative could be shot.

Now that we are using digital workstations and are not limited to three stems I routinely record at least five stems (Dx. Mx, Fx, BG,and Foley) for my final mix masters. On a number of films I've recorded two music stems which were later combined for M&E and delivery. This allowed for easier conformations when I knew the picture would be changing a lot.
#79
25th November 2011
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I tend to create a separate group track on the Dialog side, sonyeh M+E guys can use it when possible.
Especially for reacts etc.
#80
30th November 2011
Old 30th November 2011
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MOST
USEFUL
THREAD
EVER
(and im not being sarcastic, nothing makes me feel stupider then not using a term right in a technical convo or just not having clue one what someone is talking about and getting that "deer caught in the headlights look" because of it)
#81
27th December 2011
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@ Tom: thank you for the historic background - very interesting!
#82
7th May 2012
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#83
22nd May 2012
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Re: Buster Flaws I had never heard of Vanilla Stems and love the term and idea. Any good rere mixer will not do subtle push and pull moves during a print master. It renders the final stems moot! If one were anticipating such, then i would record a new set of final stems at the same time as the PM. Consequently, the M&E and later archived materials would reflect the proper balances. It is very dangerous to think of the PM as another pass at mixing!
#84
25th May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postprosound View Post
Why isn't this taught in film school? (or maybe i should ask, 'why isn't this learned in film school?') If you are going to come out of school, you will no doubt be someone's intern or assistant. This is the type of thing that you really need to know, and is the fault of teachers and students alike that this is not stressed more.
this is just a guess, since I went to school for audio and not video, but the reason I'd guess based on my own experience (or inability to find anyone even looking for interns) is that it's simply impossible to find internships in some areas, and some people don't really want to move across the country for a *chance* at getting a good job in their field. It's simply a better gamble to stay where you're at and learn on the fly.
#85
30th July 2012
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#86
18th October 2012
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Coming from a student who has so much to learn this is an awesome and informative thread! Thanks!
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