FILM & Broadcast - Levels

[dsteinwedel]

Here's a question for the gallery--

I'm mixing a short independent film of about 25 minutes in length. I'm mixing in a medium size (about 20x20) room with near to mid field monitors (about 6-7 feet away). This will go out to festivals but I'd guess that over the life of the film, it will be seen many more times on DVD/Home Theater/etc.

I've gotten one sweep done at 79 and it sounds good. Dialog is clear and comfy, music and effects fit around it well and punch when need to.

However, I flipped the switch to set the calibration level to 85 and did a playthrough just to test. And wow. It's LOUD. Even the dialog is killing my ears at times.

So now I'm starting to second guess myself. Is the extra loudness a function of me being too close to the speakers in a small-ish room? Is 79 really the right reference level to be mixing at? What do you think?

Thanks,
Dave

[minister]

Your 79 dBC is correct. 6 or 7 feet is not very far in theatrical terms. 85 wil seem WAY too loud. If your room is 20x20, can you stand farther back for a check?

The best way to check, obviously, is to get to a Dub Stage. Here the console is back at least 16 feet, which is still not all that far considering even the size of a small theater. Here 79 will be too quiet and 85 will feel better. Even though you calibrate to the mix position wherever that is in the room, the same SPL reading in a smaller room will feel at least 6dB louder than in a large room.

Get the film makers to pay for a couple of hours on a stage, then you are not guessing. Guarantee things will sound different. Panning is different, low end is different, reverb is different, details feel different.........

[Gohanto]

Just as an FYI, a 20'x20' room is going to have significant bass issues that I wouldn't trust to do a final mix in.

For reference levels, Dolby specs a 20' room length as the minimum, sitting 2/3 of the room's length away from the front wall / screen, with the speakers behind the screen at the front of the room.

That's ~13' from you to the monitors for Dolby specs using 85dBC. And I think one of the other factors that plays in 85dB for larger rooms is that acoustically transparent screens are not perfect, and diffuse the sound a bit to take the edge off louder sounds.

I'm sure others will chime in though that have more experience in this area.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by dsteinwedel

So now I'm starting to second guess myself. Is the extra loudness a function of me being too close to the speakers in a small-ish room?

If you really want to know, read this whole thread:
Loudness and room-size was: TV-Mix for Theatre - Digi User Conference


Especially what Branko wrote on the second page.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by minister

...the console is back at least 16 feet, which is still not all that far considering even the size of a small theater. Here 79 will be too quiet and 85 will feel better... Guarantee things will sound different. Panning is different, low end is different, reverb is different, details feel different.........

Marti, I once had a 'discussion' with someone who said "just because you're mixing closer to the speakers doesn't make that much difference. dB is still dB."

"once" had a discussion...

-Jeff

[dsteinwedel]

Thanks for the info everyone--I read through the digi post and found it very informative. I'm definitely feeling better about my mix. I also brought in some DVDs to the room for comparison and found my levels to be pretty close (and the DVDs were also pretty darn loud with the room was cranked to 85).

-Dave

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by Pascal Sijen

-20dBfs = 85dBc or 0dBFS = 105dBc. This is PER CHANNEL, at the reference listening position. Not to mention that the LFE channel has an extra 10dB of headroom above the 5 main channels...

... it all adds up!


Cheers!

Or from digital to the analog world -20dBFS = 0VU = +4 dBu = 85 dB SPL (79 small room) + the rest of what you said <g>. Since we have stereo subs and a sub/sat system, we send L and LS to the left sub, R and RS to the right one, C to both and LFE to both, and we cal with a spectrum analyzer as well as the venerable RS analog SPL meter. Our first experiments in calibrating the room in 1997/1998 involved consultation with Jim Hilson of Dolby and he was a great help in coming up with a reliable methodology for calibrating (it should be noted I designed the system before small studio bass management systems were commercially available, so we were really dealing with systems integration combining products from various manufacturers...life is much easier now!).

Oh yeah, we use bandwidth limited pink (and no, I won't go round and round with those who would disagree with me! For sub/sat, it simply is the most appropriate). There's a footnote in Bob Katz's first mastering book citing my measurements of various versions of pink noise and it's been so long ago, that frankly I've forgotten the results, although I do remember I used Spectrafoo to measure Dolby's, Holman's, and as I recall Digidesign's version (yuck ptoooey).

Back to my lair...I hope I don't regret breaking out of lurk mode!

[JeremyPaulCarrol]

I'm currently doing my first mix for a pilot for a kids series for the BBC... I haven't had any guidelines as it's an independent production and I appear to be the sound guy in charge (!)

I'm assuming that a good starting point for dialogue should be around the -18 dBFS (0VU) mark with sustained peaks at no more than +3 or 4 VU?? Would that would be about 85db in the room??

I hope so, because it's nearly 3 am and that's what I'm doing :-)(

Seriously though, it would be nice to get some clarification whether I'm doing right or wrong, if anyone could advise...

Thanks.....

Jem XX

[dr.sound]

Jem,
Mix at 79 spl for a kids show in a smaller room.
85 is too loud.

[philper]

Originally Posted by JeremyPaulCarrol

I'm currently doing my first mix for a pilot for a kids series for the BBC... I haven't had any guidelines as it's an independent production and I appear to be the sound guy in charge (!)

I'm assuming that a good starting point for dialogue should be around the -18 dBFS (0VU) mark with sustained peaks at no more than +3 or 4 VU?? Would that would be about 85db in the room??

I hope so, because it's nearly 3 am and that's what I'm doing :-)(

Seriously though, it would be nice to get some clarification whether I'm doing right or wrong, if anyone could advise...

Thanks.....

Jem XX

Get the spec your producers contracted to deliver under, or get ready to do the mix over again....

Philip Perkins

[Whitecat]

yes, the BBC is especially finicky about specs, although simple PPM measurement is the way to do it. if you don't have a hardware PPM meter then get the PPMulator+ software from zplane, that works just fine.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

All the level meters and careful attention to levels is not going to mean much when an 18 year old "projectionist" (read switch flipper and knob turner) decides to over ride the "normal" level for a film and blast the audience just because he or she has the ultimate power over the volume control and wants to flaunt that power.

I usually go to Cinemark theaters because the audio use to be well done, the projection is GREAT, the seats are comfortable and the popcorn taste GREAT!

Lately the one Cinemark Cineplex I go to has been having problems with getting the audio levels right. I talked to the manager and he assured me that everything is calibrated and working correctly. The problem is that the trailers are super bright and super loud and sometimes the feature is so loud I have to stick napkins in my ears to get through the movie. I haven't taken my Sound Level Meter with me but I would suspect that the levels are well over 100 dBSPL for most of the movie and sometimes reached over 110 dBSPL for short periods. That is simply too loud for extended listening. The last movie I saw there was so over done in levels that I had a hearing shift that lasted almost a whole day even with the napkins in my ears.

I am not sure whether this is a problem with the theater management or that some 18 year old who thinks it is cool to blast the patrons with very LOUD audio. What ever the problem I think it is up to the management to correct it or people are going to stop going (or maybe not). I know the next time I go to that theater I will take along some ear plugs. There were about 25 patrons in a theater that can seat 300 so there was really no need to blast everyone with super loud sound.

I have not contacted Cinemark directly but that maybe my next course of action.

I just wanted to add that with all the careful attention to everything that is done in post there is still the wild card, the projectionist, and they can make or break a movie going experience for a lot of people by how they "adjust" the volume knob.

FWIW and YMMV

[cut]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

Most FILM re-recording mixers I've worked with mix in a calibrated room and don't look at the meters for dialogue. They use their ears. I'd even venture that if you brought my mom onto the stage and asked her to bring a dialogue fader up to comfortable speaking volume, she would end up within a 3dB range of standard level.

No offense Mom!

If one takes an intuitive approach and uses creativity and logic, the metering tools are only there as a fallback. Putting the dialog at a logical level should drive all other decisions, and allow for complete creativity within that footprint. Any mixer that looks at a meter at the outset of a mix, should not be a mixer!!!!

[Fhl]

Superb read. Thank you

[eoats]

I mix at 85db SPL for theatrical. Dialog touches up to -18dbFS mostly in low 20s.
This is where I start.
Then adjust in print mastering for TV delivery spec; usually -27 dialognorm though sometimes it's been -24 (I use the RTAS Dolby Media Meter). I listen to TV mixes at 78db SPL.

[Smallbudgetguru]

Firstly I would like to thank Geo for this and her other wonderful threads. After a couple of years working for local commercials and indie features, Geo you have been a guiding light of knowledge!!

I just came home from watching a film in a large theater. I would also like to add to the discussion that I recorded peaks around 107 dbSPL. I always wear plugs when I goto the theater since I refuse to ruin my best tools unless I am getting paid at the least! Lately I have been checking playback in theaters and I agree a maximum standard needs to be set in place. 107 as shocking as it was, is not the highest peak I have seen! I cant understand how people would subject their ears to this without protection. Especially mix engineers. Nuts!

Cheers everyone and Geo. I will continue to re-read all of your wonderful knowledge thank you for sharing with us!

[eoats]

You really should think about an SPL meter;

Parts-Express.com:*Galaxy Audio Check Mate CM-130 SPL Meter | sound pressure level loudness testing osha

or

Digital-Display Sound-Level Meter - RadioShack.com

$50 isn't that much for something so basic I feel.

[Smallbudgetguru]

This should be a stickythumbsup

[BLT]

Thanks Georgia and everyone else here for sharing your wealth of knowledge! What a great read.

I noticed a little while back that my mixes (dialogue mixed to -27dB LKFS with Dolby Media Meter) are usually louder than most big budget movies that I listen to on the same system, at the same reference level. Curious as to why this was, I ran the Dolby Digital file from a few big budget DVD mixes through the Dolby Media Meter, and found that the vast majority of them had their dialogue levels between -29dB and even as low as -37dB (and just about everywhere in between), but the Dialnorm setting was indeed set at the standard -27dB. Does this mean that most of the time when theatrical mixes are put on DVD that no one really pays attention to the Dialogue and thus Dialnorm level? I would think that since the Dynamic Compression settings assume a correct Dialnorm setting, that would lead whoever is doing the DVD remix to try to get the dialogue closer to -27dB, if that's where they are leaving the Dialnorm setting. Since there is no QC department like there is for a TV/Network release, do DVD mixes just try to squeeze a few extra dB of headroom by fudging the dialogue levels? And if so, does that mean that most DVDs have the Dynamic Compression metadata setting set to "No Compression" to avoid incorrect compression/expansion thresholds if the user turns on "Midnight Mode"?

In short, should I really not care about correct dialnorm levels for DVD mixes, since apparently no one else does?

Hopefully this all makes sense. Thanks in advance for any insight!

-Brett

[ggegan]

I find that one of the main causes of excessive level in feature films is the music, especially when it is poorly written so that it lacks interactive dynamics and leaves no spaces for other elements to play. This happens a lot with action sequences where the composer accents every action with a huge orchestral spike that hogs every frequency, obliterating all other sounds. When the orchestral hits are held back they tend to feel unnatural so the director will often ask for the fx or dialog to be pushed through.

[Jfriah]

Oh gosh, Gary. That's a great post!

Jeff
(had a thriller a couple years back with a very suspenseful/scary dark hallway chase and the music just went pttttthhhhhhhhhhh through the whole thing, yet 'what happened to the fx and whispers? bring them back!')

[boinkpl]

wow, great thread, answered a lot of questions for me.

[soundsur]

we have a DMU and a DTS T2 Tower, as well as LEQ(m) and various metering via our DK600M.. When necessary we use a DOLBY LM100 as well. Between our Neve Capricorm, the DK600M, the T2, DMU and other tools we can meter ourselves to death.


cheers
geo[/QUOTE]


Madam can u give little bit explanation about DTS T2 tower.


soundsur

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

All the level meters and careful attention to levels is not going to mean much when an 18 year old "projectionist" (read switch flipper and knob turner) decides to over ride the "normal" level for a film and blast the audience just because he or she has the ultimate power over the volume control and wants to flaunt that power.

I usually go to Cinemark theaters because the audio use to be well done, the projection is GREAT, the seats are comfortable and the popcorn taste GREAT!

Lately the one Cinemark Cineplex I go to has been having problems with getting the audio levels right. I talked to the manager and he assured me that everything is calibrated and working correctly. The problem is that the trailers are super bright and super loud and sometimes the feature is so loud I have to stick napkins in my ears to get through the movie. I haven't taken my Sound Level Meter with me but I would suspect that the levels are well over 100 dBSPL for most of the movie and sometimes reached over 110 dBSPL for short periods. That is simply too loud for extended listening. The last movie I saw there was so over done in levels that I had a hearing shift that lasted almost a whole day even with the napkins in my ears.

I am not sure whether this is a problem with the theater management or that some 18 year old who thinks it is cool to blast the patrons with very LOUD audio. What ever the problem I think it is up to the management to correct it or people are going to stop going (or maybe not). I know the next time I go to that theater I will take along some ear plugs. There were about 25 patrons in a theater that can seat 300 so there was really no need to blast everyone with super loud sound.

I have not contacted Cinemark directly but that maybe my next course of action.

I just wanted to add that with all the careful attention to everything that is done in post there is still the wild card, the projectionist, and they can make or break a movie going experience for a lot of people by how they "adjust" the volume knob.

FWIW and YMMV

i never go to a movie without my 30dB plugs

and never go to something I know will be loud without ALSO taking my 25dB ear muffs to use TOO

[rc99]

I'm an editor and post-supervisor...I used to do a lot more sound-design than I do now, but mostly supervise it for films. It's still a bit of a shock to go into a design or mixing session that's playing back near 'reference' level....because it's pretty darn loud for me. It makes it a bit hard to gauge sometimes because I'm recoiling from the volume.

But I've generally found it harder to deal with when it comes to sound guys/studios that mix 'heavy-handedly' and aren't as in-tune with the smoother, more subtle and natural aspects of the film's soundscape. Things don't 'feel' as loud when the former is done better, IMP. Kinda' like a band...if you're really tight, you can play loud and still sound pretty good. When you're not, you'll always feel too loud because it just doesn't sound as good...and it hurts the ear more.

[maria]

Originally Posted by eoats

I mix at 85db SPL for theatrical. Dialog touches up to -18dbFS mostly in low 20s.
This is where I start.
Then adjust in print mastering for TV delivery spec; usually -27 dialognorm though sometimes it's been -24 (I use the RTAS Dolby Media Meter). I listen to TV mixes at 78db SPL.

What meter are you using to view your film dialogue levels?"18dbFS mostly in low 20s" is this RMS?

[BIGBANGBUZZ]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I find that one of the main causes of excessive level in feature films is the music, especially when it is poorly written so that it lacks interactive dynamics and leaves no spaces for other elements to play. This happens a lot with action sequences where the composer accents every action with a huge orchestral spike that hogs every frequency, obliterating all other sounds. When the orchestral hits are held back they tend to feel unnatural so the director will often ask for the fx or dialog to be pushed through.

I hate those type scores, they do my head in.
Some directors, producers and composers should watch old school Bond films.. Action films with a minimalist approach to music..not in your face, not loud and not overly dramatic.

Warning rant... Current box office action films are becoming comedy cause everything is tooo loud and over the top.

Overbearing loud score makes me want to exit the cinema.

[Murasamee]

I had a FANTASTIC long chat with Gary Rizzo about this subject yesterday. Like most of us re-recording mixers, he mixes with his ears and rarely looks at his meters. He actually said that 99% of the time, he forgets its even there. However, he did mention that he likes his dialogue to not go over -18dbFS and to live in the -20s. But, he did mention something interesting when I asked him about movies getting louder and louder. He said, "Sometimes a movie just needs to be loud, and if that means going close to full scale, then so be it...its not my preferred method, but when the movie calls for it, I go for it."

It was a very interesting thing to hear since a good chunk of his mixes are fairly in your face HOT. I respect the man greatly, and he is a super humble and nice guy, but he definitely is contributing to the "loudness wars".

We did get into an interesting chat about how Chris Nolan likes to work on mixes with him. No predubs AT ALL. They go in and spend 7-10 days on a rough first pass (usually around 800-1000 tracks) and if they are satisfied, they use the first pass as the basis for the final mix. That is just intense since you have to keep track of so much stuff at once! I have mixed movies both ways, but never anything with that type of track count!