SOPA and Politics-
#91
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Scandal sells.
There just aren't dozens of books about "my happy successful music career".
The bottom line is also, how you reconcile musicians being the main victims of piracy with the excuse musicians were victims of the record labels?
In the end, there are just too many people who have never worked with a label or had a record deal spouting off about the 'evil' labels.
The frustration I have is experiencing the very broad church of the recording industry, while people who supposedly support creative musicians, falling into the lazy narrative of describing the industry based on what they've heard about a few major labels.
maybe you should write a book about "my happy successful music career"! There seems to be a shortage on the subject...

Or if you really want to include scandal into the book, you can throw in the current monster... big tech
#92
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
I think the artist (and here me out here) has to be minimized- The public face needs to focus on the songwriters and all the other hidden people attached to the process who are profoundly impacted by theft
Not that I disagree with you (again ), but in the modern age, and at the less commercial levels, the artist is also the songwriter..... and the engineer..... and the teaboy......
Many of us have been reduced to working alone at home, and it's these artists that have been most damaged by piracy.
The last few posts speak to my point on education though, how somewhat futile it is in a short to medium term.
Don is highly educated, sensible, and a frequent contributor to this forum. Out of his whole experience reading the Lanier book, he chose to quote one passage alone, a passage blaming 'the recording industry' as if it's one block.
(Facepalm moment, although out of deference to your sensitivity I shall restrain myself)
charles maynes
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#93
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Not that I disagree with you (again ), but in the modern age, and at the less commercial levels, the artist is also the songwriter..... and the engineer..... and the teaboy......
Many of us have been reduced to working alone at home, and it's these artists that have been most damaged by piracy.
The last few posts speak to my point on education though, how somewhat futile it is in a short to medium term.
Don is highly educated, sensible, and a frequent contributor to this forum. Out of his whole experience reading the Lanier book, he chose to quote one passage alone, a passage blaming 'the recording industry' as if it's one block.
(Facepalm moment, although out of deference to your sensitivity I shall restrain myself)
I am with you Chris- and those artists who you speak of need to be far more prominent in the conversation- the perception I am seeing- not that it is universal- is that the people who want SOPA to succeed are fat cats who want to screw the little people-

I dont know what it will take to turn that around, but it really needs to happen....

I have started my little crusade- and boy am I paying for it.... but its all that I can do at the moment....
#94
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
... Out of his whole experience reading the Lanier book, he chose to quote one passage alone, a passage blaming 'the recording industry' as if it's one block. ...
Let's be quite clear about my reasons... On several occasions, John berated me about my not having read the book, suggesting that I wasn't qualified to comment until I had. He also said that "record companies ripping off artists" was very rare. I found it ironic that the book author went into print saying otherwise, and I took the opportunity to bring John's words back to him.

For the record, I did enjoy Lanier's book. I have minor doubts about his memories on a couple of mainframe-oriented events, because I was there (at IBM) and he wasn't, but in general he explained things very well - the mark of a good teacher. Regarding the specific quote under discussion, my personal opinion is that he was exaggeratng the situation somewhat. I doubt that "the record companies" are any more corrupt than any other similarly structured businesses.
#95
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #95
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Here's a blog i just recently found (through another blog) that could be of interest.

The Musical Disconnect

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMD's objective (edited)
The objective of The Musical Disconnect is to inform music fans, and musicians, what is happening in the music industry today, the profound changes that are occurring, and how a fan's actions can help, or hurt, the artists whose work they enjoy.

TMD will also explore the disconnect between the music fan's perception of what it means to be a working musician and the reality
#96
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
He also said that "record companies ripping off artists" was very rare. I found it ironic that the book author went into print saying otherwise, and I took the opportunity to bring John's words back to him.
It is unusual, unless you regard the average contract which artists willingly sign as default rip off.
Still a little disturbing that you chose to pick that one paragraph out of a long book.
charles maynes
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#97
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
Here's a blog i just recently found (through another blog) that could be of interest.

The Musical Disconnect
thanks- it looks pretty useful....



after these last few days, I beginning to think this is one of those Red vs Blue pill things in the film "The Matrix".......
#98
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I've read Lanier's book. It was in the local library.
"... the record companies have not helped themselves. They have made a public fuss about suing the most sympathetic people, snooped obnoxiously, and so on. Furthermore, there's a long history of sleaze, corruption, creative accounting, and price fixing in the music business." - Jaron Lanier

... but not Levine's. I don't think it's going to change my life so fundamentally that I need to get it from Amazon. I'll wait for it to be available locally. And I have no plans to acquire an e-reader, or the means to read e-books, in the near future. I'm waiting for a flexible one that won't break when dropped.
So what? The music business is elitist by design. Disputes that would be trivial in other industries are public fodder due to the attachment of celebrity.

Many musical art forms are acts of rebellion against social norms from jazz to rap to punk to rock and even the partying excesses of the drug fueled rave movement.

So called "sleaze" is built into the fabric in the very DNA of the artists themselves who as recently as the 90s took to the streets and waged armed warfare against each other resulting in the murders of tupac shakur and biggie smalls.

The industry itself is a unique community that attracts a certain type of person to be drawn to it and function within its culture.

Many can through stones but it's a fine line between Sexy and Sleazy... A business built on Sex and Drugs and Rock & Roll is as old as Wine, Women and Song as a taboo...

As Taboo Culture, the blade cuts both ways, and I like it that way...
charles maynes
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#99
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearOnTheGo View Post
So what? The music business is elitist by design. Disputes that would be trivial in other industries are public fodder due to the attachment of celebrity.

Many musical art forms are acts of rebellion against social norms from jazz to rap to punk to rock and even the partying excesses of the drug fueled rave movement.

So called "sleaze" is built into the fabric in the very DNA of the artists themselves who as recently as the 90s took to the streets and waged armed warfare against each other resulting in the murders of tupac shakur and biggie smalls.

The industry itself is a unique community that attracts a certain type of person to be drawn to it and function within its culture.

Many can through stones but it's a fine line between Sexy and Sleazy... A business built on Sex and Drugs and Rock & Roll is as old as Wine, Women and Song as a taboo...

As Taboo Culture, the blade cuts both ways, and I like it that way...
in the long view of what Rock and Roll might be, this is not a problem-

in the view of how it impacts the piracy issue- comes down to "who is the bigger outlaw"

if we want popular support for artists rights- flashing a fist full of benjamin's while your sitting in your Mercedes is not going to gather much sympathy for fighting a criminal cause.
#100
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearOnTheGo View Post

So called "sleaze" is built into the fabric in the very DNA of the artists themselves
... A business built on Sex and Drugs and Rock & Roll is as old as Wine, Women and Song as a taboo...
The above in many ways is the fantasy world people think the music industry is. For most musicians it's hard work and if you are drink or drug liability you wont work.
Many rock tours I've done have been fairly sober affairs. There are long hours, many hours a day traveling. Several thousand people waiting to see you in each city. You literally can't afford to crap out.
A couple of club dj's I know are tea-total'ers. Again, hard work, lots of travel.
For most the music industry from the early 90's onwards became extremely competitive and all about keeping your head above water financially.
It's time to start debunking this myth that it's one long debauched party of 'wine, women and song', it really is a professional business these days.
#101
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
after these last few days, I beginning to think this is one of those Red vs Blue pill things in the film "The Matrix".......
"why oh why... didn't i take the Blue pill..."


Yes, this is a rabbit hole. Welcome to Wonderland!
charles maynes
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#102
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
"why oh why... didn't i take the Blue pill..."


Yes, this is a rabbit hole. Welcome to Wonderland!
thanks...... I guess.....

I just sent off a letter to the City Manager of Burbank for the Resolution against Piracy and Copyright Infringement..... I also posted to my Union reps to support the action and to try to mobilize our rank and file to support it....
#103
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
thanks...... I guess.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
I just sent off a letter to the City Manager of Burbank for the Resolution against Piracy and Copyright Infringement..... I also posted to my Union reps to support the action and to try to mobilize our rank and file to support it....
Excellent.
I'm glad you've come around on the issue.


I'm just worried it will get rendered useless next markup. If the "alternate proposal" gets pushed, then the compromise will get pushed that direction...
charles maynes
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#104
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post



Excellent.
I'm glad you've come around on the issue.


I'm just worried it will get rendered useless next markup. If the "alternate proposal" gets pushed, then the compromise will get pushed that direction...
well, we can only do what we can do- If the issues is elevated in the publics mind, hopefully they will see the importance of it- I am hoping to hear back from Adam Schiffs office too- I will followup on that this week...

I will be a lot happier if I can post Council Chambers video of a Resolution being enacted.....
#105
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
in the long view of what Rock and Roll might be, this is not a problem-

in the view of how it impacts the piracy issue- comes down to "who is the bigger outlaw"

if we want popular support for artists rights- flashing a fist full of benjamin's while your sitting in your Mercedes is not going to gather much sympathy for fighting a criminal cause.
it really shouldn't matter what people do with their money or their lifestyle, they have a right to the "pursuit of happiness" as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process.

who's freedoms are we talking about here? why don't musicians get to have the same freedoms that other people aspire too? sounds like a bit of sour grapes and a double standard (not by you specifically charles) but by the general population.
charles maynes
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#106
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
it really shouldn't matter what people do with their money or their lifestyle, they have a right to the "pursuit of happiness" as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process.

who's freedoms are we talking about here? why don't musicians get to have the same freedoms that other people aspire too? sounds like a bit of sour grapes and a double standard (not by you specifically charles) but by the general population.
it is sour grapes, and people are entitled to feel the way they do- I wont mention it by name, but there is a certain social movement happening right now that exhibits that (today is shut down the ports day). We cant be portrayed as Marie Antionette here.....

The problem is this in my opinion- rock and pop musicians are but a small fraction of the totality of those who SOPA protects. There are many who do not choose to express themselves in the same manner- That same "radical", or "outlaw" or "rebellious" expression is being used in a number of different ways to invalidate these protections- and it is purely by association.... the point is- the opposition is waging a propaganda war against US- those here trying to change things- we are required to wage war against that, or the publics opinion on it will be the same as the publics opinion on bankers or anyone else who has made fortunes in questionable manners.... It is all PR and propaganda.

I refuse to condemn any marginally legal personal behavior choices an artist might make- but in the interest of gathering the greatest numbers of support for the protections that the artist community in general need so much, I would say it is something that will not serve that end goal.

If the consensus here is that the protection of the rebellious image of pop and rock is more important that protecting the IP- then we should realize that we are in a small boat in a very big ocean.
#107
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #107
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Well I agree with you about the portrayal.
The media have built up the myth about bad boy millionaire musicians, and unfortunately many musicians have played along with it.
Don't forget though, that most rebellious and anti-establishment musicians are on the outer, by the very nature of their attitudes. The Nick Cave's, the Captain Beefhart's, the Iggy Pop's. To be a rebellious musician often means to be rather poorer and less popular than most other musicians.
By the way, I've been in rock n' roll my entire adult life and I've never seen so much debauchery as when I shared a house with three city financiers.

------

I recently wrote an article about music piracy mentioning the 'Occupy Movement' (hasn't been published yet). I mentioned that musicians are by and large the 99%. A few rock stars are in the 1%, and the forces we are fighting against, the tech barons, are most definitely in the 1%.
I think many in the 'Occupy' movement are a little confused. Most are in deep love with Apple, Google, Facebook and Twitter and yet railing against corporate greed and the love of money.
charles maynes
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#108
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #108
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well I agree with you about the portrayal.
The media have built up the myth about bad boy millionaire musicians, and unfortunately many musicians have played along with it.
Don't forget though, that most rebellious and anti-establishment musicians are on the outer, by the very nature of their attitudes. The Nick Cave's, the Captain Beefhart's, the Iggy Pop's. To be a rebellious musician often means to be rather poorer and less popular than most other musicians.
By the way, I've been in rock n' roll my entire adult life and I've never seen so much debauchery as when I shared a house with three city financiers.

------

I recently wrote an article about music piracy mentioning the 'Occupy Movement' (hasn't been published yet). I mentioned that musicians are by and large the 99%. A few rock stars are in the 1%, and the forces we are fighting against, the tech barons, are most definitely in the 1%.
I think many in the 'Occupy' movement are a little confused. Most are in deep love with Apple, Google, Facebook and Twitter and yet railing against corporate greed and the love of money.
Chris, I think that we agree on the matter entirely.... as far as the fringe guys you mentioned- you know I have never heard them really bitch too much about how things have worked out for them.... maybe they are just sage- but I really appreciate their honesty in the matter- they still are entitled to be rewarded for their work though.
#109
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Let's be quite clear about my reasons... On several occasions, John berated me about my not having read the book, suggesting that I wasn't qualified to comment until I had. He also said that "record companies ripping off artists" was very rare. I found it ironic that the book author went into print saying otherwise, and I took the opportunity to bring John's words back to him.

For the record, I did enjoy Lanier's book. I have minor doubts about his memories on a couple of mainframe-oriented events, because I was there (at IBM) and he wasn't, but in general he explained things very well - the mark of a good teacher. Regarding the specific quote under discussion, my personal opinion is that he was exaggeratng the situation somewhat. I doubt that "the record companies" are any more corrupt than any other similarly structured businesses.
Since you don't provide a link I'm not certain exactly what it was that I said, but I have a strong suspicion that you're either misquoting me (nobody's memory is perfect) or taking my words out of context - as you are with Lanier's.
#110
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well I agree with you about the portrayal.
The media have built up the myth about bad boy millionaire musicians, and unfortunately many musicians have played along with it.
Don't forget though, that most rebellious and anti-establishment musicians are on the outer, by the very nature of their attitudes. The Nick Cave's, the Captain Beefhart's, the Iggy Pop's. To be a rebellious musician often means to be rather poorer and less popular than most other musicians.
By the way, I've been in rock n' roll my entire adult life and I've never seen so much debauchery as when I shared a house with three city financiers.
emphasis mine, much agreed and to my point... other people try to live the life they THINK rock stars and celebs are, and then judge the rock stars and celebrities... so much for logic or self awareness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I recently wrote an article about music piracy mentioning the 'Occupy Movement' (hasn't been published yet). I mentioned that musicians are by and large the 99%. A few rock stars are in the 1%, and the forces we are fighting against, the tech barons, are most definitely in the 1%.
I think many in the 'Occupy' movement are a little confused. Most are in deep love with Apple, Google, Facebook and Twitter and yet railing against corporate greed and the love of money.
ain't that the truth...
charles maynes
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#111
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #111
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#112
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #112
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I see this as further proof that no matter how much control the RIAA/MPAA gets over our internet they still will find ways to rip off artists via "creative accounting".
The more things change, the more they stay the same eh?

It also should be a warning to those who think that passing SOPA/Protect IP will lead to musicians/studios/artists making more money than they are now.
It won't.

I'm not for piracy, but I am against the entertainment industry controlling any aspect of the internet and dictating the terms by which it operates.
It's like putting the wolves in charge of the henhouse.
#113
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #113
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammybastard View Post
I see this as further proof that no matter how much control the RIAA/MPAA gets over our internet they still will find ways to rip off artists via "creative accounting".
The more things change, the more they stay the same eh?

It also should be a warning to those who think that passing SOPA/Protect IP will lead to musicians/studios/artists making more money than they are now.
It won't.

I'm not for piracy, but I am against the entertainment industry controlling any aspect of the internet and dictating the terms by which it operates.
It's like putting the wolves in charge of the henhouse.
oh stop it, you have no idea what you are talking about. this is a highly contentious contract dispute over the way digital royalties are calculated, I expect there to be as many appeals and battles as legally possible - the fact is, Itunes set up business NOT as a license like other services but rather as a digital reseller by modeling the business on retail margins. It is fair, and it works. The Amazon Digital store is also set up the same way. Licenses exist in a very different paradigm and everyone involved in this knows the difference.

Someone is getting creative on the artist side attempting a land grab, and well, if their contracts are old, open and vague enough, and they can do it - power to them... but I wouldn't expect it to happen without a fight, a really, really, big expensive fight.

to wit:

Quote:
In reaction, UMG has given us this statement: "The court has simply stated that the motion, which addressed a small part of the case, is more appropriately decided at the summary judgment stage rather than at the motion to dismiss stage. We believe that once the court addresses the merits of this case, we will prevail.”
#114
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jammybastard View Post
I see this as further proof that no matter how much control the RIAA/MPAA gets over our internet they still will find ways to rip off artists via "creative accounting".
The more things change, the more they stay the same eh?

It also should be a warning to those who think that passing SOPA/Protect IP will lead to musicians/studios/artists making more money than they are now.
It won't.

I'm not for piracy, but I am against the entertainment industry controlling any aspect of the internet and dictating the terms by which it operates.
It's like putting the wolves in charge of the henhouse.
there is too many factually incorrect statements in your reply that i could write a book...

But i'll just state this: THIS IS NOT about the "Entertainment Industry" controlling the internet... (in fact, 'we' are a very small consideration of the bill)
Have you read the Bill? I highly doubt it.

Here, i suggest you read this:
http://www.itif.org/files/2011-pipa-...nd-critics.pdf
charles maynes
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#115
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jammybastard View Post
I see this as further proof that no matter how much control the RIAA/MPAA gets over our internet they still will find ways to rip off artists via "creative accounting".
The more things change, the more they stay the same eh?

It also should be a warning to those who think that passing SOPA/Protect IP will lead to musicians/studios/artists making more money than they are now.
It won't.

I'm not for piracy, but I am against the entertainment industry controlling any aspect of the internet and dictating the terms by which it operates.
It's like putting the wolves in charge of the henhouse.
I was going to try to point at the fallacies involved in your comments, but actually they are far more valuable to illustrate the perception of the situation- for that, I thank you....
#116
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jammybastard View Post
It's like putting the wolves in charge of the henhouse.
Putting music consumers in charge of the music industry (by that I mean illegal downloaders dictating to artists and record companies) has been a disaster though.

And the music industry (let alone the 'entertainment industry') goes way beyond the RIAA/MPAA.
#117
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #117
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Well, corporations will be corporations and will act accordingly. I'm sure the courts will sort it out equitably.

While labels and artists are on the same side in the matter of piracy obviously that's not the case when it comes to contract disputes.

That's the biz, and that's why even I have a good music lawyer.
#118
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #118
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammybastard View Post
I see this as further proof that no matter how much control the RIAA/MPAA gets over our internet they still will find ways to rip off artists via "creative accounting".
The more things change, the more they stay the same eh?
No,Jammy.... It's not a matter of "ripping off". That's inflammatory and not really true. The corporation is simply acting like a corporation. That's why we have contracts, courts, and music lawyers.

You'd as well blame a bear for "ripping off" when it raids a camp site. It's the bear's nature and a wise person takes precautions.

Quote:
It also should be a warning to those who think that passing SOPA/Protect IP will lead to musicians/studios/artists making more money than they are now.
It won't.
That's a totally illogical non sequitur. And patently untrue.

Quote:
I'm not for piracy, but I am against the entertainment industry controlling any aspect of the internet and dictating the terms by which it operates.
It's like putting the wolves in charge of the henhouse.
As usual you're both wrong and have failed to do your homework. Please read the various other threads in this forum dealing with SOPA.
charles maynes
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#119
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Well, corporations will be corporations and will act accordingly. I'm sure the courts will sort it out equitably.

While labels and artists are on the same side in the matter of piracy obviously that's not the case when it comes to contract disputes.

That's the biz, and that's why even I have a good music lawyer.
thanks John, great insight and voice of reason in the issue.
#120
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #120
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I was just watching a favourite political discussion programme on my national broadcaster. It consists of a panel, mostly non politicians, but people in the public eye with an opinion from various persuasions, conservative, liberal, something in-between.
Rather surprisingly the subject of SOPA came up.
The three panelists who had been disagreeing somewhat on the previous Aussie political subjects all suddenly rounded on SOPA. The most liberal panelist claimed if Flickr or Vimeo hosted a single questionable upload, those sites could be completely blocked. My stress levels peaked when the third panelist (I didn't catch her name) entered the fray after the host mentioned she worked in the music industry - I think she is an executive at a Sydney music radio station. She claimed (annoyingly with the nodding agreement of all other panelists) that the biggest impact of piracy was on the upper echelon, the Metallica/Madonna artists she said. On the other hand, the internet had created an explosion of new artists who were locked out before. These new artists had found new ways to connect with fans, and laws like SOPA threatened the freedom of new artists and the lower level artists to use the internet as they have been doing. She added, the music industry is really structured around playing live now, in the internet age.
Not one positive thing was said by anyone in the debate about measures to control piracy, although all three panelists agreed artists should be paid.
Anyone not deep into the debate, or not au-fait with the music business would once again have all their misinformation and mythology reinforced by these supposed 'deep thinkers' and opinion makers'.
I'm sick as an Aussie parrot.
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