SOPA and Politics-
Old 8th December 2011
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Chris, I am not sure what standards we wish to use, but the RIAA at least is posturing themselves as the voice of the Recording Industry in America- which is where the legislation is being crafted, and will have the most significant effect- is that a mistaken notion?
No, not really mistaken.
What is mistaken is to claim the RIAA 'ARE the record industry'. They ARE NOT.
The record industry is extremely broad, and both the independent sector and European labels (eg: UK) have contributed a great deal to the quality of output, and as far as i can tell generally have a different attitude to the RIAA.
So I can't really emphasise this enough. You are saying they 'ARE the record industry' then saying you meant they are the record industry in America where this legislation is being debated.
You are confusing the debate by making incorrect statements.
The standards i think we should all use is to make clear commentary, not cloudy commentary, or dare i say it, UScentric commentary.
Old 8th December 2011
  #32
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Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
do you think I have some kind of magical influence over congress? I'm flattered, but I just don't have that kind of power...

sure, I'm active on several different levels, but none of them have any direct influence on what is happening... I have no choice than to let it be done, the same as you!

on some points you and I simply disagree, on others you are misinformed.

either way, the debating of such things only serves to express more points of view to the many lurkers who visit this forum - most of whom have very little understand of the business and it's history that has lead us here.

in the years I've been posting here I've seen a slow steady turn of the tide, whereby more an more musicians are learning about their rights, what they can do, and the actions to take to empower themselves in one of the most disempowered era's since the beginning of the record business as we understand it today.

we've gone backwards, not forwards, and those reading here should fully understand what is at stake for those who have any desire what so have to have any kind of professional career.

the hobbyist is another issue all together, and nothing wrong with that, but it is a different conversation than one had by professionals and those who aspire to be.

You shouldny feel unduly flattered, If you are in Los Angeles, Adam Schiff, who happens to be my representitve in Congress is a sponsor to the SOPA act- you should write him or call his office, I have.

As far as us disagreeing, I have always thought George Patton's words- "If everyone thinks the same, it means someone isnt thinking-" to be thoughtful- so I consider that a benefit to the intellectial process not a hinderance to it. Whether we choose to be civil about that is an indivdual choice, but it is easier going forward with more numbers in support of the measure than less.

As to your remaining points- I will not comment beyond what I have already articulated, Artist rights are important, and sacrosanct. If we do not embrace them as fellow artists we devalue ourselves it will mean what we do is worthless- I dont think anyone is interested in that at all.

On the other side of that, we also have to realize that we may be facing unintended consequences from the blind application of the law that might NOT be in our best interest- which is why discussion and the clearest articulation of our concerns and desires in the legislative process is of paramount importance. Even if it means it takes longer to get the law we need vs what we think we might want.
Old 8th December 2011
  #33
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Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
No, not really mistaken.
What is mistaken is to claim the RIAA 'ARE the record industry'. They ARE NOT.
The record industry is extremely broad, and both the independent sector and European labels (eg: UK) have contributed a great deal to the quality of output, and as far as i can tell generally have a different attitude to the RIAA.
So I can't really emphasise this enough. You are saying they 'ARE the record industry' then saying you meant they are the record industry in America where this legislation is being debated.
You are confusing the debate by making incorrect statements.
The standards i think we should all use is to make clear commentary, not cloudy commentary, or dare i say it, UScentric commentary.
Chris, I agree with you, but we are talking about US law, not international law, and it does indeed effect the US market more than any other. As to the internation Recording industry having at part in that conversation- since many labels are international in there makeup, The RIAA does at least seem to be the 2000 pound elephant in the room.
Old 8th December 2011
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
I didn't say expert, I said informed.
Correction accepted.
Old 8th December 2011
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
The RIAA does at least seem to be the 2000 pound elephant in the room.
Agreed.
Your statement cam across as too general and US-centric that's all.
Yes, one particularly large organisation has the ability to screw the rest of us, to whit Rack Gear's thread, but your follow up made no sense without absolute qualification or context:

Quote:
last I checked, they pretty much ARE the record industry
They are NOT.
Old 8th December 2011
  #36
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Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Correction accepted.
I never said otherwise...
Old 8th December 2011
  #37
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Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Agreed.
Your statement cam across as too general and US-centric that's all.
Yes, one particularly large organisation has the ability to screw the rest of us, to whit Rack Gear's thread, but your follow up made no sense without absolute qualification or context:



They are NOT.
cool- though I thought my top comments were in regards to your saying the RIAA wasnt representing the record industry. I apologize for my not being able to present that more accurately.
Old 8th December 2011
  #38
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
cool- though I thought my top comments were in regards to your saying the RIAA wasnt representing the record industry. I apologize for my not being able to present that more accurately.
that being said- is the RIAA presenting the case to support artists right to everyones satisfaction? If not, is there a better advocate- as I said, we can directly contact the bills sponsers and endorse those folks (like Levene) who are able to articulate the communities needs effectively.....
Old 8th December 2011
  #39
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Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
I never said otherwise...
I meant, I accepted your correction of my error.
Old 8th December 2011
  #40
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
that being said- is the RIAA presenting the case to support artists right to everyones satisfaction? .
Well they only represent American based labels? Not specifically the artists.
And I don't regard them as representing the aspect of the industry I love, European/UK and independent.
They are in the thick of it with regards to American legislation I imagine.
I prefer FAC, which is also an anti-piracy active organisation, but a bit more independent biased and certainly more for artists than for labels:
Featured Artists Coalition
Old 9th December 2011
  #41
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Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well they only represent American based labels? Not specifically the artists.
And I don't regard them as representing the aspect of the industry I love, European/UK and independent.
They are in the thick of it with regards to American legislation I imagine.
I prefer FAC, which is also an anti-piracy active organisation, but a bit more independent biased and certainly more for artists than for labels:
Featured Artists Coalition
Chris, (or John or Rack Gear) is there a US group such as that? That would be the sort of group that SHOULD be a part of the discussion for sure....
Old 9th December 2011
  #42
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I'd have to ask the American contingent to answer that.
I have read some good articles and blogs from American Songwriter associations/collectives that I thought were very reasonable.
Old 9th December 2011
  #43
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Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'd have to ask the American contingent to answer that.
I have read some good articles and blogs from American Songwriter associations/collectives that I thought were very reasonable.
perhaps John might know- at any rate, making the bill writers aware of them and hopefully getting those parties directly involved in the markup to whatever degree is possible, would be a good thing I would expect.
Old 9th December 2011
  #45
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Old 9th December 2011
  #46
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
I would think many of these are already lobbying the act at present- I am almost certain AFM is due to their afliation with the AFL/CIO....
Yes, they are.

All of the linked above are. (with the HFA being my only uncomfirmed. I would imaging they are though)
Old 9th December 2011
  #47
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The NMPA just annouced a new person on their legislative roster:

NMPA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snippet from the NMPA
NMPA ANNOUNCES NEW VICE PRESIDENT FOR GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS


November 30, 2011, 11 AM EASTERN

WASHINGTON—The National Music Publishers’ Association (NMPA) today announced that Allison Halataei will join the organization as Vice President for Government Affairs.

Halataei comes to the NMPA from the Committee on the Judiciary in the U.S. House of Representatives, where she serves as Deputy Chief of Staff and Parliamentarian. She oversees all Committee legislative activities and provides procedural legal counsel to the Chairman and Committee Members during Committee sessions and bill consideration before the full House. She also serves as Committee liaison to House leadership for legislative matters. She has been with the Committee since 2006, first as Counsel and then her current capacity beginning in 2007.

In her new role, Halataei will serve as the NMPA’s chief liaison to Capitol Hill and federal agencies, overseeing all legislative and regulatory policy development and outreach on behalf of the music publishing and songwriting industry
...
Old 9th December 2011
  #48
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Just because there are many advocates for musicians/songwriters/publishers, doesn't mean they hold much weight in the discussion. It's very important they are there, but i doubt they get much face-time.. at least compared to other groups with more powerful lobbies (ie, more money...)

It is important they are in the room... but i'd rather they had a seat at the table...
Old 9th December 2011
  #49
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Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
Just because there are many advocates for musicians/songwriters/publishers, doesn't mean they hold much weight in the discussion. It's very important they are there, but i doubt they get much face-time.. at least compared to other groups with more powerful lobbies (ie, more money...)

It is important they are in the room... but i'd rather they had a seat at the table...
+ a million.....

What the artist can do though is actively petition their Representitives in Congress though- in person is great, by letter is good too- and volunteering time to work on the issue for them is a huge entrypoint into the conversation.

Most Senators and Congressional Reps are on Facebook as well- make your petition on their walls- their staffs do follow them, and there are a ton of other people with their issues doing the same thing- you can evangelize the matter to those who would most likely give some effort to the matter.

Obama was really big on "Community Organizing" and that is EXACTLY what this is-
Old 9th December 2011
  #50
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
+ a million.....

What the artist can do though is actively petition their Representitives in Congress though- in person is great, by letter is good too- and volunteering time to work on the issue for them is a huge entrypoint into the conversation.

Most Senators and Congressional Reps are on Facebook as well- make your petition on their walls- their staffs do follow them, and there are a ton of other people with their issues doing the same thing- you can evangelize the matter to those who would most likely give some effort to the matter.

Obama was really big on "Community Organizing" and that is EXACTLY what this is-
I do petition my Rep
I've probably gone through an entire oak trees' worth of paper by now...
Old 9th December 2011
  #51
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Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
I do petition my Rep
I've probably gone through an entire oak trees' worth of paper by now...
have you met with him/her. or his staff? as well, have others you know done it? the point being is that numbers matter
Old 9th December 2011
  #52
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I think now would be a great time to generate the flow chart of a pirated song-
something nice, and flashy- like a government powerpoint slide.

something that could be put up on facebook walls and distributed to any, and everyone.

will it stop any of this? not directly- but it will certainly elevate the issue to a broader audience-

I love the idea of showing someone like Colin Moulding, driving a cab saying he was a victim of piracy.... I know I could probably get at least a few hundred people to see it-

perhaps it will be a holiday project....
Old 9th December 2011
  #54
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Old 10th December 2011
  #55
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
My point being, I dont think legislation which would replay the DMCA's shortcomings is going to do anyone any favors. And if a year of refinement- which is all they have, makes for a more robust law, it will be worth the wait.
First, I seriously doubt this will "replay the DMCA's shortcomings". It may incorporate shortcomings of its own (who's got the crystal ball?), but replay the old ones? No, probably not.

Unless.......

(Second) That "year of refinement" is much more likely to be a year of watering down and teeth pulling. In which case we could see a replay. That's why we need to make our representatives aware of the need to ADOPT THE BILL AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN, no compromises, no fixes, no "making it more fair" to the people it's aimed against.
Old 10th December 2011
  #56
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
and I intend on getting to them- I have a growing stack of screeners I need to get through as well for the awards season. That being said, SOPA goes FAR beyond the record industry- and the needs of the record industry are not its singular concern. As a media professional I am taking that into account.
Concerns about "not going too far" are what ruined the DMCA.

Quote:
I am pretty successful actually, and I won Emmys for my work the last two years, as well as being party to a couple of Academy Awards too. I have been in the industry for around 20 years, and it has been my sole source of income for the last 18. So again- I think I might be qualified to speak on the issue since it directly affects me.

And I actually stand behind my words with my real identity too.
With all due respect, Charles, as a highly successful person working on award winning projects )I submit that the issue actually affects you very little. Certainly not nearly as much as those of us for whom piracy can mean the difference between moderate profitability and bankruptcy.

And as a sound effects editor do you receive royalties (points on the film) or do you receive a flat fee? The latter, I would guess.....

It seems to me that piracy probably doesn't touch you DIRECTLY at all.
Old 10th December 2011
  #57
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Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Having read Lanier's and Levine's books doesn't automatically qualify you as an expert on the topics, either. For what it's worth, I believe Charles' insights and perspective have considerably raised the standard of discussion here.
Have you read either one yet or are you still waiting for the price to come down on shipping to NZ?

A suggestion someone mentioned that made me think of you - have you considered the Kindle versions? (I hate ebooks, but then I don't face humongous shipping charges, either) - you don't even need to buy the hardware, there's a free downloadable app for your computer.
Old 10th December 2011
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
we both want IP protection.
Do we?

They why do you go to such great effort to shoot down every attempt to actually accomplish it and only come up with silly,unrealistic, unworkable ideas that have been discredited a long time (relatively speaking) ago?

It seems to me that WE want IP protection but you're more concerned about protecting the free speech of whales on the internet to include illegal copies of sea chanties on their blogs. Or something.
Old 10th December 2011
  #59
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
First, I seriously doubt this will "replay the DMCA's shortcomings". It may incorporate shortcomings of its own (who's got the crystal ball?), but replay the old ones? No, probably not.

Unless.......

(Second) That "year of refinement" is much more likely to be a year of watering down and teeth pulling. In which case we could see a replay. That's why we need to make our representatives aware of the need to ADOPT THE BILL AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN, no compromises, no fixes, no "making it more fair" to the people it's aimed against.
thats going to be a tough sell though, in fact, I would say that that is an impossible vision- as NO legislation goes through without various crap being attached to it- It seems Levene knows the language which needs to be worked on as far as the Civil Liberties issues are concerned, at least so he says- And he acknowledged that there were shortcomings in it- he thought they could be fixed during Markup.

But I dont think the corporations who are being targeted need any concessions.
Old 10th December 2011
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
thats going to be a tough sell though, in fact, I would say that that is an impossible vision- as NO legislation goes through without various crap being attached to it- It seems Levene knows the language which needs to be worked on as far as the Civil Liberties issues are concerned, at least so he says- And he acknowledged that there were shortcomings in it- he thought they could be fixed during Markup.

But I dont think the corporations who are being targeted need any concessions.
I heard the piece on NPR with Levine and all that he conceded was that "parts of the bill were perhaps to vague and should be more specific"... I'll concede he was replying to comments about free speech, but he also responded to the notion of possible abuse when his opponent could quote only two known instances of abuse of current copyright law in the context feared from SOPA... as Levine says, that's a pretty damn good law with only TWO abuses in 13 years... so again I think perspective is important in this conversation to maintain some sense of reality.

Although I could be mistaken, everyone get more info and/or listen here:

Internet Piracy: Will SOPA Change the Web as We Know It? - To the Point on KCRW

Listen:
KCRW | 89.9FM - Media Player

Download:
http://download.kcrw.com/audio/81401...-07-154815.mp3
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