People have no shame

[FoxMulderFBI]

Just check out myspace or facebook, people so openly share illegal download links for music visible to everyone. Some girls write that new album of some of their favorite producer just came out and one wrote on her wall: yeah, downloading it as we speak from that site (illegal ofc), other one: me too, can't wait. This is just one example. Few minutes ago, my friend put a youtube link of some older house track on his wall and one girl liked it and wrote: I liked this so much, I am downloading his whole discography now and shares link we others. Others write: thank you, thanxxx, etc. Wtf?

Look how far this got, no one is afraid anymore. You can find music illegal for free any where, every forum, social network, search engine, etc.

What's the point of selling music than? Selling 100 mp3 legally and getting 15 euro for your several months of hard work doesn't justify it. Being producer today is just like receving smack in the face every few minutes!

[erikdrink]

Vinyl is it!

[erikdrink]

And cassette

[erikdrink]

Oh, and tape!

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by FoxMulderFBI

What's the point of selling music than? Selling 100 mp3 legally and getting 15 euro for your several months of hard work doesn't justify it. Being producer today is just like receving smack in the face every few minutes!

Stay strong man, it will get better again soon. Not back to where it was, that is the past, but good enough to live. Give it another 5 or so years.
Now that books are going digital, just wait for the uprising of that part of the copyright holders when their stuff gets nicked milli nilli.......in 5 or slightly more years it will obviously still be possible to steal files, but hopefully at that point tricky/awkward enough and with at least slight possibility of consequences, and buying the legal stuff will get easier and easier on tablets. So basically most people will not bother stealing it then. Or at least lots less than now. So there you have my hopeful prediction.....

But that's in a while. First, watch Spotify die.

[Matt Allison]

You'd be better off lobbying for a better royalty rate and more transparency from Spotify.
Take away Spotify and those kids will just go right back to stealing. I've seen it with my own eyes.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by FoxMulderFBI

Just check out myspace or facebook, people so openly share illegal download links for music visible to everyone. Some girls write that new album of some of their favorite producer just came out and one wrote on her wall: yeah, downloading it as we speak from that site (illegal ofc), other one: me too, can't wait. This is just one example. Few minutes ago, my friend put a youtube link of some older house track on his wall and one girl liked it and wrote: I liked this so much, I am downloading his whole discography now and shares link we others. Others write: thank you, thanxxx, etc. Wtf?

Look how far this got, no one is afraid anymore. You can find music illegal for free any where, every forum, social network, search engine, etc.

What's the point of selling music than? Selling 100 mp3 legally and getting 15 euro for your several months of hard work doesn't justify it. Being producer today is just like receving smack in the face every few minutes!

I'd love to see a screen shot if you could post one! Amazing...

[Matt Allison]

Originally Posted by rack gear

I'd love to see a screen shot if you could post one! Amazing...

Amazing? I see this on the music boards I visit practically every day.

[Don Hills]

Originally Posted by FoxMulderFBI

People have no shame

That's right. They simply don't realise that what they are doing is wrong.
It illustrates a point I keep making, that enforcement is only half of the answer. Social engineering is the other half. Remember when smoking used to be cool?

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by FoxMulderFBI

Just check out myspace or facebook, people so openly share illegal download links for music visible to everyone. Some girls write that new album of some of their favorite producer just came out and one wrote on her wall: yeah, downloading it as we speak from that site (illegal ofc), other one: me too, can't wait. This is just one example. Few minutes ago, my friend put a youtube link of some older house track on his wall and one girl liked it and wrote: I liked this so much, I am downloading his whole discography now and shares link we others. Others write: thank you, thanxxx, etc. Wtf?

Look how far this got, no one is afraid anymore. You can find music illegal for free any where, every forum, social network, search engine, etc.

What's the point of selling music than? Selling 100 mp3 legally and getting 15 euro for your several months of hard work doesn't justify it. Being producer today is just like receving smack in the face every few minutes!

Take a screenshot and report the person to Facebook. If I'm not mistaken, sharing such illegal information should be against the terms of use and the little airhead could lose her account. At the very least you ought to be able to get the post removed. Facebook pulls pages over IP concerns all the time.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Matt Allison

Amazing? I see this on the music boards I visit practically every day.

And you condone this? Do you report the sites?

[Matt Allison]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

And you condone this? Do you report the sites?

No John, I don't "condone it"; they're often albums I've recorded. jesus h...

The problem is that it isn't technically illegal.

AFAIK, it isn't illegal for a web forum to have one of its posters post links,

and it isn't illegal for these cyberlockers to exist.

The law is f***ed up.

I want it changed. I just want a real law that will be effective.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by Matt Allison

I want it changed. I just want a real law that will be effective.

me too!

[chrisso]

I don't report it either.
I spent an exhausting 3 months reporting the same Ebay seller to Ebay security on a weekly basis, the seller openly auctioning multiple copies on DVDR of Toontrack software. I actually think Ebay ignored me, as it was co-incidentally only after the US distributor joined the fray that the Ebay seller was closed down.
Incidentally they re-appeared a few weeks later, with all their positive feedback still intact - often from buyers saying "love the software". Although as far as I know they haven't returned to selling illegally copied drum software.

Nothing is going to happen with a few isolated producers taking on the popular pirates. It has to be a more official, multi directional attack.

[AwwDeOhh]

All the more reason to contact your representitive and tell them to take IP enforcement seriously.
In the US there's a couple of Bills circulating that have the potential to make an impact. (Protect IP, and SOPA)

Ignorant polititians only know it's a problem IF YOU TELL THEM!

Get on it!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Matt Allison

No John, I don't "condone it"; they're often albums I've recorded. jesus h...

The problem is that it isn't technically illegal.

AFAIK, it isn't illegal for a web forum to have one of its posters post links,

and it isn't illegal for these cyberlockers to exist.

The law is f***ed up.

I want it changed. I just want a real law that will be effective.

It's generally a violation of the terms of use agreement that the operators of the forum have with their provider and it's often a violation of the terms of use for the forum itself as they pretty much have to include it to protect themselves. Whether they abide by their own terms of use is another question entirely. However, even ones that routinely post illicit material will often do a takedown if requested (you can PM me about why I might say that.)

Some of these forums and blogs simply don't understand that when they receive a review copy they're not allowed to share it with their fans. That's why you get blog owners crying about getting RIAA takedowns when the were "given" the material by the record company. Yes, they're dummies. That's no excuse (although it's a reason......)

And no, I didn't actually think you condoned it.

And yes, it actually IS illegal.

[XHipHop]

To the OP, an MP3 has very little value and that probably won't change. Almost zero.

You need to think about alternate methods to package your music. Check out the campaigns that Topspin have run for ideas.

Also, you mentioned being a producer, i think...get the artists you will be producing to raise money in advance via kickstarter directly from their fans and this is another way you can ensure being paid.

There are so many HUGE OPPORTUNITIES out there for everyone and whining and hoping we could go back to the 90's is the worst way for you to spend your time.

Be proactive, people!

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

It's generally a violation of the terms of use agreement that the operators of the forum have with their provider and it's often a violation of the terms of use for the forum itself as they pretty much have to include it to protect themselves. Whether they abide by their own terms of use is another question entirely. However, even ones that routinely post illicit material will often do a takedown if requested (you can PM me about why I might say that.)

Some of these forums and blogs simply don't understand that when they receive a review copy they're not allowed to share it with their fans. That's why you get blog owners crying about getting RIAA takedowns when the were "given" the material by the record company. Yes, they're dummies. That's no excuse (although it's a reason......)

And no, I didn't actually think you condoned it.

And yes, it actually IS illegal.

Kind of irrelevant. Getting individuals booted off of forums isn't really the answer to anything.

Start to think differently about how to sell music and come up with new business models and solutions.

[AwwDeOhh]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

To the OP, an MP3 has very little value and that probably won't change. Almost zero.

You are confusing the container with the product...
But that's neither here nor there.
How is your anti-copyright campaign going?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh

You are confusing the container with the product...
But that's neither here nor there.
How is your anti-copyright campaign going?

Unfortunately I think at the moment he is right, regardless of what magic is in the container. Inherently anything you get for free has no value. The exact reason why things need to change.

And good luck to you Xhiphop, because you'll need it regardless of your amazing 'new ways of selling/packaging/whatever', if what you're selling actually has no value, it won't matter how you package it.

[AwwDeOhh]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Unfortunately I think at the moment he is right, regardless of what magic is in the container. Inherently anything you get for free has no value. The exact reason why things need to change.

And good luck to you Xhiphop, because you'll need it regardless of your amazing 'new ways of selling/packaging/whatever', if what you're selling actually has no value, it won't matter how you package it.

People don't steal what they don't value...

...if it truely didn't have value... they wouldn't bother!

[Gary Ladd]

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

To the OP, an MP3 has very little value and that probably won't change. Almost zero.

I don't see where you get that at all. I think you're projecting your own bhias.

You need to think about alternate methods to package your music. Check out the campaigns that Topspin have run for ideas.

Also, you mentioned being a producer, i think...get the artists you will be producing to raise money in advance via kickstarter directly from their fans and this is another way you can ensure being paid.

There are so many HUGE OPPORTUNITIES out there for everyone and whining and hoping we could go back to the 90's is the worst way for you to spend your time.

Be proactive, people!

Packaging format means little or nothing. I love hard copy, but releasing only is hard copy simply deprives you of any income you might have had from downloads and drives all your potential MP3 customers to pirate sites - who WILL have your material anyway. Ever heard of a "vinyl rip"?

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Unfortunately I think at the moment he is right, regardless of what magic is in the container. Inherently anything you get for free has no value. The exact reason why things need to change.

And good luck to you Xhiphop, because you'll need it regardless of your amazing 'new ways of selling/packaging/whatever', if what you're selling actually has no value, it won't matter how you package it.

If I give a girl a diamond ring does that mean that the ring has no value? After all, she got it for free, didn't she?

If I steal a bunch of diamonds and hand them out to strangers on the street, do the diamonds have no value?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

If I give a girl a diamond ring does that mean that the ring has no value? After all, she got it for free, didn't she?

If I steal a bunch of diamonds and hand them out to strangers on the street, do the diamonds have no value?

If you give a girl a ring it will have a lot of value. Particularly if she values you. Bad example, different type of value.

If you give out free diamonds to strangers I'd say they'll value them less than someone who bought the same ones with their hard earned is all.

All I'm pointing out is that there is a connection between someone having to pay for something and the value they then attribute to whatever it is. Which works in reverse too, when it didn't cost a penny.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh

People don't steal what they don't value...

...if it truely didn't have value... they wouldn't bother!

That would be nice, but I don't believe that. Some people steal what they can steal. Just because they can.

I understand what you're getting at though, of course they desire the free music to listen to, so it does have a 'value' as such, only it has turned abstract only, as the monetary measure has been removed.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Inherently anything you get for free has no value.

I disagree.
The value comes from the usage, not how you came upon the item.
The lack of value argument comes because people blanket download. Most of what they download has little value to them, so they think mp3's have no value. However, try to take away the music they've downloaded and enjoyed.
I was once given a San Francisco players jacket. I was given it as a gift, no payment. That was 1989 and I still highly value that jacket today, especially as it's something you couldn't/can't buy.
I have a friend advising me on my music production.
I could pay a consultant. My friend gives me help and advice for free, but it's very good advice because he's very skilled. Does free advice have no value? Of course it has value!

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

That would be nice, but I don't believe that. Some people steal what they can steal. Just because they can.

No. Stealing - even as easy stealing as downloading music - requires a certain amount of effort. People do not expend effort (even minimal effort) in pursuit of things they're not interested it. Considering the sheer volume of music downloaded illegally I'd say that a fair amount of effort is expended in searching it out and downloading it. Ergo, people do place value on it, and not an inconsiderable amount.

However, since it's being given them for free they see no reason to pay for it, despite its value to them.

If I was handing out free hot dogs on the street, how many people do you think would pay me anyway?

If I was handing out hot dogs on the street that were clearly identifiable as coming from the commercial hot dog stand down the block how many people do you think would take a free hot dog and then go give the hot dog stand money?

It doesn't mean they don't place value on free food. They simply see no need to pay for it, since they have it already.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

No. Stealing - even as easy stealing as downloading music - requires a certain amount of effort. People do not expend effort (even minimal effort) in pursuit of things they're not interested it. Considering the sheer volume of music downloaded illegally I'd say that a fair amount of effort is expended in searching it out and downloading it. Ergo, people do place value on it, and not an inconsiderable amount.

However, since it's being given them for free they see no reason to pay for it, despite its value to them.

If I was handing out free hot dogs on the street, how many people do you think would pay me anyway?

If I was handing out hot dogs on the street that were clearly identifiable as coming from the commercial hot dog stand down the block how many people do you think would take a free hot dog and then go give the hot dog stand money?

It doesn't mean they don't place value on free food. They simply see no need to pay for it, since they have it already.

I agree entirely with Johns comments, though I would like to add one other thought to it, with no intention of diminishing what has been said-

If the person taking the goods "thinks" they might be offered free without knowing they are stolen they might assume they are some sort of promotion or are otherwise legal- if say a radio station is doing a street promotion where they are giving away CD's- (which may very well be not intended for that) are they responsible for an illegal action which they are unaware of?

If say, one finds a CD in a shop that is identified as a promotional item, not to be resold, and the shop is selling it- are they responsible for buying an illegal item, and perhaps even being charged tax for it? I know that at least here in Los Angeles that happened a lot..... the same with cutout albums and CDs....

the oddest thing I think I have seen is pirate sites that will offer an illegal download of a song, and then have a link to "legally" purchase it. I am assuming- and please correct me if I am wrong- that the "legal" version is equally illegal, and the site is simply directly charging for stolen property- but someone who may have innocently ended up there might actually pay the price for it- and essentially defrauding the user who is under the assumption they are doing the right thing.... in these instances, it appears to me SOPA is even more important....

[Karloff70]

All I am saying is that people who have stolen the music mp3's are going to be less precious about them and how they view them, simply BECAUSE they got them for free, and also because they could simply steal them again should their drive full of music go down or such.

I am not putting any moral evaluation into it whatsoever, just observing. No need to go nuts, chaps, I am most certainly not a piracy apologist. Chill.

When people had 'records' that they had bought, they cherished them. People don't cherish mp3's. They DO value them in a different way, almost in a 'it's my right to have these sounds as part of my culture soundtrack' type of delusion, but its not the same is all I'm saying.