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#31
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #31
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start ramping up the pressure / critique on them then.. is my advice..
which I guess this thread helps in doing.

surely it might be some form of aiding and abetting or culpability.

I haven't really used this much but I searched some phrases people used in this forum a couple of times, and found them being referenced on this site.

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#32
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #32
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
If the person taking the goods "thinks" they might be offered free without knowing they are stolen they might assume they are some sort of promotion or are otherwise legal- if say a radio station is doing a street promotion where they are giving away CD's- (which may very well be not intended for that) are they responsible for an illegal action which they are unaware of?
First, if a radio station is doing a giveaway it is nearly always sponsored by the record label and the station is provided extra copies for that purpose. The conditions the CDs are to be used for are specified in writing.

Second, people are expected to exercise some discretion in where they source their music. In the case of downloading from a blog that does not have permission to distribute the question of end user liability is nebulous, but I doubt that anyone would be prosecuted for downloading. Distribution is a different matter.

Quote:
If say, one finds a CD in a shop that is identified as a promotional item, not to be resold, and the shop is selling it- are they responsible for buying an illegal item, and perhaps even being charged tax for it? I know that at least here in Los Angeles that happened a lot..... the same with cutout albums and CDs....
If you find a shop selling CDs marked "PROMOTIONAL" they are breaking the law. Report them to the appropriate authorities and the label that released the records. This usually comes about from reviewers (and sometimes radio station employees) selling off promo copies and is a really scummy practice because not only does the artist lose a legitimate sale, they are actually CHARGED for each promo copy given out, so it actually COSTS THE ARTIST MONEY. You might also complain to the store's management but in my experience that rarely if ever does any good.

Quote:
the oddest thing I think I have seen is pirate sites that will offer an illegal download of a song, and then have a link to "legally" purchase it. I am assuming- and please correct me if I am wrong- that the "legal" version is equally illegal, and the site is simply directly charging for stolen property- but someone who may have innocently ended up there might actually pay the price for it- and essentially defrauding the user who is under the assumption they are doing the right thing.... in these instances, it appears to me SOPA is even more important....
I've never seen this, but I'd assume that the site is running a scam. I can't see how it could be otherwise, unless the link is to a totally unaffiliated site and they're just offering the links to bolster a "try before you buy" excuse.
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#33
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
When people had 'records' that they had bought, they cherished them. People don't cherish mp3's. They DO value them in a different way, almost in a 'it's my right to have these sounds as part of my culture soundtrack' type of delusion, but its not the same is all I'm saying.
That's only because they're not currently paying for them. Cut off the easy and safe flow of pirated content and watch how fast that attitude changes.
#34
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
First, if a radio station is doing a giveaway it is nearly always sponsored by the record label and the station is provided extra copies for that purpose. The conditions the CDs are to be used for are specified in writing.

Second, people are expected to exercise some discretion in where they source their music. In the case of downloading from a blog that does not have permission to distribute the question of end user liability is nebulous, but I doubt that anyone would be prosecuted for downloading. Distribution is a different matter.



If you find a shop selling CDs marked "PROMOTIONAL" they are breaking the law. Report them to the appropriate authorities and the label that released the records. This usually comes about from reviewers (and sometimes radio station employees) selling off promo copies and is a really scummy practice because not only does the artist lose a legitimate sale, they are actually CHARGED for each promo copy given out, so it actually COSTS THE ARTIST MONEY. You might also complain to the store's management but in my experience that rarely if ever does any good.



I've never seen this, but I'd assume that the site is running a scam. I can't see how it could be otherwise, unless the link is to a totally unaffiliated site and they're just offering the links to bolster a "try before you buy" excuse.
thanks John, you confirmed my gut feelings on a number of those scenarios....
#35
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
That's only because they're not currently paying for them. Cut off the easy and safe flow of pirated content and watch how fast that attitude changes.
Totally!! You just echoed my point. And I'm looking forward to it. Not liking a world where so many think of music in such a disposable way. Soul less.
#36
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #36
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Back in the olden days - when a new song came out by a popular band, the kids would talk about it and then wait for it play on the radio, and probably record with their cassette recorder. Of course, if they found they really liked this band, they would ask Santa to bring them the LP or cassette. And if that band came to town, they would beg or steal to go to the concert and buy the t-shirt. This worked out well for the bands, who got rich enough to buy drugs and hookers and farms. But for every successful band, there were millions of losers making music the kids didn't value so much.

The technology has changed, but the "problem"' hasn't really changed. I personally do not object to the fact that kids discuss bands on forums, or that they download files just to hear the songs. In my opinion, kids HAVE to hear songs for free - many times - before it translates into purchases of product.

There are still successful bands making good money, and people still buy music. But yes - there are still millions of unsucessful bands who don't grab the public attention the way the stars do. It's mainly these sore losers who seem to think the world owes them something for their art. That's sad for them, because moaning about it won't help them become a star. And the idiot stars who moan about it don't do their career any good either.

It's tough. It's always been tough. It's always going to be tough.

Even IF we had the perfect police state that you guys seem to want - all you would suceed in doing is ensuring that the kids won't listen to your art, and certainly won't purchase it.

I would welcome this - because with all the competition gone I would post my own music for free, and find some other way to extract money from my fans.

No point moaning about it. Do something creative.
2
#37
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
Back in the olden days - when a new song came out by a popular band, the kids would talk about it and then wait for it play on the radio, and probably record with their cassette recorder. Of course, if they found they really liked this band, they would ask Santa to bring them the LP or cassette. And if that band came to town, they would beg or steal to go to the concert and buy the t-shirt. This worked out well for the bands, who got rich enough to buy drugs and hookers and farms. But for every successful band, there were millions of losers making music the kids didn't value so much.

The technology has changed, but the "problem"' hasn't really changed. I personally do not object to the fact that kids discuss bands on forums, or that they download files just to hear the songs. In my opinion, kids HAVE to hear songs for free - many times - before it translates into purchases of product.

There are still successful bands making good money, and people still buy music. But yes - there are still millions of unsucessful bands who don't grab the public attention the way the stars do. It's mainly these sore losers who seem to think the world owes them something for their art. That's sad for them, because moaning about it won't help them become a star. And the idiot stars who moan about it don't do their career any good either.

It's tough. It's always been tough. It's always going to be tough.

Even IF we had the perfect police state that you guys seem to want - all you would suceed in doing is ensuring that the kids won't listen to your art, and certainly won't purchase it.

I would welcome this - because with all the competition gone I would post my own music for free, and find some other way to extract money from my fans.

No point moaning about it. Do something creative.
it has nothing to do with a police state-

as I have posted before- if you downloaded an album (not paying for it) and someone broke into your house to steal it, would you call the police?
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#38
12th December 2011
Old 12th December 2011
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
Back in the olden days - when a new song came out by a popular band, the kids would talk about it and then wait for it play on the radio, and probably record with their cassette recorder. Of course, if they found they really liked this band, they would ask Santa to bring them the LP or cassette. And if that band came to town, they would beg or steal to go to the concert and buy the t-shirt. This worked out well for the bands, who got rich enough to buy drugs and hookers and farms. But for every successful band, there were millions of losers making music the kids didn't value so much.

The technology has changed, but the "problem"' hasn't really changed. I personally do not object to the fact that kids discuss bands on forums, or that they download files just to hear the songs. In my opinion, kids HAVE to hear songs for free - many times - before it translates into purchases of product.

There are still successful bands making good money, and people still buy music. But yes - there are still millions of unsucessful bands who don't grab the public attention the way the stars do. It's mainly these sore losers who seem to think the world owes them something for their art. That's sad for them, because moaning about it won't help them become a star. And the idiot stars who moan about it don't do their career any good either.

It's tough. It's always been tough. It's always going to be tough.

Even IF we had the perfect police state that you guys seem to want - all you would suceed in doing is ensuring that the kids won't listen to your art, and certainly won't purchase it.

I would welcome this - because with all the competition gone I would post my own music for free, and find some other way to extract money from my fans.

No point moaning about it. Do something creative.
"Back in the olden days...."

Were you around in "The olden days"?

I was.

Back then a young band could actually pool their money, cut a record and schlep it around to radio stations and shops in their area. If there was interest (and there often was) they'd get picked up by regional, then national radio and they'd have their records distributed by an independent distribution company. They'd have sales and actually make money.

Nowadays as soon as a young act gets any recognition at all, even regionally, their record is up on pirate sites and there's no chance of any income.

#39
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
--
the oddest thing I think I have seen is pirate sites that will offer an illegal download of a song, and then have a link to "legally" purchase it. I am assuming- and please correct me if I am wrong- that the "legal" version is equally illegal, and the site is simply directly charging for stolen property- but someone who may have innocently ended up there might actually pay the price for it- and essentially defrauding the user who is under the assumption they are doing the right thing.... in these instances, it appears to me SOPA is even more important....
If it isn't a scam site, like John mentioned;
another possibility is the pirate site trying to add an aire of authenticity to themselves. Kinda like "oh look, this couldn't possibly be illegal... see they link to the actual store" from the consumers' perspective. Of course, when given the option.. guess which the consumer will pick...
#40
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
Back in the olden days - when a new song came out by a popular band, the kids would talk about it and then wait for it play on the radio, and probably record with their cassette recorder. Of course, if they found they really liked this band, they would ask Santa to bring them the LP or cassette. And if that band came to town, they would beg or steal to go to the concert and buy the t-shirt. This worked out well for the bands, who got rich enough to buy drugs and hookers and farms. But for every successful band, there were millions of losers making music the kids didn't value so much.

The technology has changed, but the "problem"' hasn't really changed. I personally do not object to the fact that kids discuss bands on forums, or that they download files just to hear the songs. In my opinion, kids HAVE to hear songs for free - many times - before it translates into purchases of product.

There are still successful bands making good money, and people still buy music. But yes - there are still millions of unsucessful bands who don't grab the public attention the way the stars do. It's mainly these sore losers who seem to think the world owes them something for their art. That's sad for them, because moaning about it won't help them become a star. And the idiot stars who moan about it don't do their career any good either.

It's tough. It's always been tough. It's always going to be tough.

Even IF we had the perfect police state that you guys seem to want - all you would suceed in doing is ensuring that the kids won't listen to your art, and certainly won't purchase it.

I would welcome this - because with all the competition gone I would post my own music for free, and find some other way to extract money from my fans.

No point moaning about it. Do something creative.
#41
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
If it isn't a scam site, like John mentioned;
another possibility is the pirate site trying to add an aire of authenticity to themselves. Kinda like "oh look, this couldn't possibly be illegal... see they link to the actual store" from the consumers' perspective. Of course, when given the option.. guess which the consumer will pick...
as I mentioned originally, I really cant imagine it ISNT a scam..... but perhaps a few fools will actually give them their credit cards to boot....
#42
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
as I mentioned originally, I really cant imagine it ISNT a scam..... but perhaps a few fools will actually give them their credit cards to boot....
Which could be a BIG mistake.....
#43
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Which could be a BIG mistake.....

indeed.....
#44
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
Do something creative.
Yes, because not liking your stuff nicked makes you an uncreative m***erf***er.

Good luck with the money extraction. Maybe you can sell them school writing blocks with your band logo on.....
#45
13th December 2011
Old 13th December 2011
  #45
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Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Yes, because not liking your stuff nicked makes you an uncreative m***erf***er.
Exactly.
I don't know why people keep making this point - that somehow because you are against piracy, and fighting piracy, you must not be getting on with making music.
Another fallacy is that piracy is all about 'the kids'.
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