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#31
2nd December 2011
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metered usage would be disastrous for the future of the internet. the fact that australia doesn't have netflix or spotify kind of says it all doesn't it? It's just a last-gasp power grab by the obsolete cable companies and doesn't have anything to do with piracy.
#32
2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
This has been my view for a long time, although Don will tell you differently.
Certainly, Australia has charged for data usage for at least 6 years, and although the price is coming down, the data based contracts are getting bigger and bigger - 50/60 gig per month in a country with a generally slow download net speed and no netflix, Spotify etc....
THe tech companies are attempting to constrict content to their own services, like iCloud, but until they can achieve that, the way they attract people to huge data contracts (and more income) is by looking the other way on illegal streaming and piracy.
The telco regulators reported a huge spike in complaints about mobile devices this year. One of the biggest spikes was complaints about 'surprise' enormous telephone bills. This is because they promote the smart phone and tablet market, but fail to warn people how costly they are to actually use.
So Chris- what are your feelings about going after the ISP's? in the current SOPA act, they are being allowed, in my mind an extra-ordinary amount of grace as far as their due-diligence responsiblity regarding copyright law. It is indeed one thing to require court ordered blocks to pirate sites, but if the ISP gets a forever pass and slap on the wrist, while still benefitting from the volume revenue, I would say they should be culpable for that illicit traffic to a far greater degree than the current iteration of the bill.....
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#33
2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
metered usage would be disastrous for the future of the internet. the fact that australia doesn't have netflix or spotify kind of says it all doesn't it? It's just a last-gasp power grab by the obsolete cable companies and doesn't have anything to do with piracy.
most ISP's are moving towards a usage based service model- If you move lots of data, thats the cost of doing so- and it has nothing to do with piracy, and everything to do with infrastructure capitalization and company profit.

I use Digidelivery and Aspyra daily to move projects from point to point- I am fully aware of the costs I will be asked to pay in order to so, and have to roll it into my fee structure-
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2nd December 2011
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Great.. more laws that under the guise of "for the public" that will ultimately strip americans of further freedoms... arent there laws and means of dealing with piracy already?

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2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust Creep View Post
Great.. more laws that under the guise of "for the public" that will ultimately strip americans of further freedoms... arent there laws and means of dealing with piracy already?

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yes there are, and in application far exceed the reach of this bill- the issue is the reluctance of enforcement.
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2nd December 2011
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thankfully I have fios and verizon doesn't appear to be planning any data caps. if they did it would basically make it impossible for me to work at home anymore. I hope there will be a big consumer backlash against data caps in the US, if not legislation against it.
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2nd December 2011
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I will not put a value judgement on this, but the responses are indicating a certain tension in the service model-

not- I have not suggested that ISP use data volume as a metric, but there is a certain value to seeing where the bandwidth is used.
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2nd December 2011
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#39
2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
bandwidth is being used primarily for Netflix at the moment Netflix Eats Up 32 Percent of U.S. Bandwidth During Peak Times | News & Opinion | PCMag.com

which is why the cable companies want to implement data caps and protect their monopolies.
BitTorrent is second at 16.5 percent, according to stats collected in September.

so we know who and where the pirate downloaders might be..... interesting.....

funny that Bit Torrent isnt mentioned in SOPA......
#40
2nd December 2011
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well you can't use bittorrent without the tracker sites right? so presumably sopa could help block the domain names of bittorrent trackers.
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2nd December 2011
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Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
well you can't use bittorrent without the tracker sites right? so presumably sopa could help block the domain names of bittorrent trackers.
thats all well and good- but the people downloading are as much the criminals as the Torrent Sites. If the culture of theft is going to be changed, you make theft have a serious- and I mean REALLY serious penalty.

We either play hardball or go home- if we cant shut down the provider, we throw the person we do have access to into jail. They are guilty of theft, period.

Perhaps a grace period could be granted, but once the hurt starts being applied, it needs be a harsh enough punishment so that people are more afraid of the penalty than the cost of honesty.
#42
2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Yes, Matt, that's true. And I can assure you pretty conclusively that it will be effective for the greater percentage of the American market because most people can't even be bothered to learn how to set up a simple Bittorrent client properly, let alone configure and use a foreign proxy system.
There is no need to "configure" a foreign proxy. You go to google, type in "proxy", and a bunch of sites to help surf anonymously with proxies appear. Click on a foreign one, and boom. You just bypassed the new law.

This is the first legislation on this issue in 14 years. You're not going to get a new law to fight piracy every year.

Either give this one teeth, or don't bother passing it.
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2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Allison View Post
There is no need to "configure" a foreign proxy. You go to google, type in "proxy", and a bunch of sites to help surf anonymously with proxies appear. Click on a foreign one, and boom. You just bypassed the new law.

This is the first legislation on this issue in 14 years. You're not going to get a new law to fight piracy every year.

Either give this one teeth, or don't bother passing it.
you mean like this?

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2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
thats all well and good- but the people downloading are as much the criminals as the Torrent Sites. If the culture of theft is going to be changed, you make theft have a serious- and I mean REALLY serious penalty.

We either play hardball or go home- if we cant shut down the provider, we throw the person we do have access to into jail. They are guilty of theft, period.

Perhaps a grace period could be granted, but once the hurt starts being applied, it needs be a harsh enough punishment so that people are more afraid of the penalty than the cost of honesty.

This has been proven to be false which is why some victims of rape fight to keep the punishment for rape outside of death penalty or any territory that would be perceived as overly strict... if the punishment doesn't fit the crime.. the consequences aren't considered and the crime takes place because the punishment appears improbable.

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2nd December 2011
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Originally Posted by Rust Creep View Post
This has been proven to be false which is why some victims of rape fight to keep the punishment for rape outside of death penalty or any territory that would be perceived as overly strict... if the punishment doesn't fit the crime.. the consequences aren't considered and the crime takes place because the punishment appears improbable.

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ok-

I will allow others the chance to weigh on such- but if one can go to prison for stealing a car, they can certainly go to prison for stealing digital assets.
#46
2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
you mean like this?

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That's one, sure.

If Congress is smart, they'll tackle this problem. Perhaps the angle they can approach it from is that we are under a constant hacking bombardment from China, and anonymous proxies are one of the methods China employs in the verifiable cyber-war they're currently waging against us.

Just a suggestion.
#47
2nd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Allison View Post
That's one, sure.

If Congress is smart, they'll tackle this problem. Perhaps the angle they can approach it from is that we are under a constant hacking bombardment from China, and anonymous proxies are one of the methods China employs in the verifiable cyber-war they're currently waging against us.

Just a suggestion.
a suggestion that brings us to the door of the 4th Amendment Matt....

those proxies are used for quite a bit more than pirating music video or other copywrighted materials. de bar their use would be nearly on par with demanding all internet users be both identified and traceable.

which is why you roll up the criminals from the ends, and go from there. The problem is we cant seem to get to the supply end of the problem, but we can certainly get to the demand end of it-

And legal court orders especially under the Patriot Act could be used to trace the destination IP addresses of the torrent downloaders. at least those not using proxies.
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2nd December 2011
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
thats all well and good- but the people downloading are as much the criminals as the Torrent Sites.
but they're very casual criminals engaging in a crime of opportunity. if you make that crime even marginally more difficult to accomplish you would stop the vast majority of offenders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
those proxies are used for quite a bit more than pirating music video or other copywrighted materials. de bar their use would be nearly on par with demanding all internet users be both identified and traceable.
...

And legal court orders especially under the Patriot Act could be used to trace the destination IP addresses of the torrent downloaders. at least those not using proxies.
so you have a problem with blocking foreign sites that enable piracy but you want to use the patriot act to identify US citizens (probably largely minors) who download music and throw them in jail?
#49
2nd December 2011
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Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
but they're very casual criminals engaging in a crime of opportunity. if you make that crime even marginally more difficult to accomplish you would stop the vast majority of offenders.
so casual criminals, the ones who are really the problem in the matter and who are not paying for their music or software are innocent victims? please..... that is an insulting leap of logic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
so you have a problem with blocking foreign sites that enable piracy but you want to use the patriot act to identify US citizens (probably largely minors) who download music and throw them in jail?
If you wish to change the behavior you attack the problem at its core- the dishonesty of the end user. period.

As I tell my kids, what "they" do is irrelevant- what "You" do defines you.

there will always be a temptation. You dont overcome it by hiding from it.
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2nd December 2011
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Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
if they did it would basically make it impossible for me to work at home anymore. I hope there will be a big consumer backlash against data caps in the US, if not legislation against it.
It just becomes another business expense.
It's almost impossible for me to work at home because the speed of my net connection is way too slow.
The cost of upgrading to fibre to the home, or fibre to the node is billions.
The same thing is happening in the US and Europe. That infrastructure upgrade cost has to be funded somehow.
Regardless of netflix, no one was using cell phones, let alone tablets to access large amounts of data five years ago.
All these apps, face to face phone calls, movie and music cloud services being used now are eating up data like there's no tomorrow.
Viewed from my situation in Australia, this debate seems to have an unreal aspect to it. One solution to piracy being touted is a ubiquitous streaming service, where you don't own your music or tv/film, but stream it whenever and wherever you want, but at the same time the numerous wi-fi black spots, and super slow rural and suburban net speeds are supposed to cope without billions being spent on creating the worldwide, high speed coverage.
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#52
2nd December 2011
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
a suggestion that brings us to the door of the 4th Amendment Matt....

those proxies are used for quite a bit more than pirating music video or other copywrighted materials. de bar their use would be nearly on par with demanding all internet users be both identified and traceable.
I'm not suggesting action against all proxies. Not at all. But if you don't address foreign proxies then PIPA/SOPA is completely toothless.
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#53
2nd December 2011
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
so- what do people think about this?


SEC. 202. AUTHORITY TO INTERCEPT WIRE, ORAL, AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS RELATING TO COMPUTER FRAUD AND ABUSE OFFENSES.

Section 2516(1)(c) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking `and section 1341 (relating to mail fraud),' and inserting `section 1341 (relating to mail fraud), a felony violation of section 1030 (relating to computer fraud and abuse),'.
SEC. 203. AUTHORITY TO SHARE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE INFORMATION.

(a) AUTHORITY TO SHARE GRAND JURY INFORMATION-
(1) IN GENERAL- Rule 6(e)(3)(C) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure is amended to read as follows:
`(C)(i) Disclosure otherwise prohibited by this rule of matters occurring before the grand jury may also be made--
`(I) when so directed by a court preliminarily to or in connection with a judicial proceeding;
`(II) when permitted by a court at the request of the defendant, upon a showing that grounds may exist for a motion to dismiss the indictment because of matters occurring before the grand jury;
`(III) when the disclosure is made by an attorney for the government to another Federal grand jury;
`(IV) when permitted by a court at the request of an attorney for the government, upon a showing that such matters may disclose a violation of State criminal law, to an appropriate official of a State or subdivision of a State for the purpose of enforcing such law; or
`(V) when the matters involve foreign intelligence or counterintelligence (as defined in section 3 of the National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. 401a)), or foreign intelligence information (as defined in clause (iv) of this subparagraph), to any Federal law enforcement, intelligence, protective, immigration, national defense, or national security official in order to assist the official receiving that information in the performance of his official duties.
`(ii) If the court orders disclosure of matters occurring before the grand jury, the disclosure shall be made in such manner, at such time, and under such conditions as the court may direct.
`(iii) Any Federal official to whom information is disclosed pursuant to clause (i)(V) of this subparagraph may use that information only as necessary in the conduct of that person's official duties subject to any limitations on the unauthorized disclosure of such information. Within a reasonable time after such disclosure, an attorney for the government shall file under seal a notice with the court stating the fact that such information was disclosed and the departments, agencies, or entities to which the disclosure was made.
`(iv) In clause (i)(V) of this subparagraph, the term `foreign intelligence information' means--
`(I) information, whether or not concerning a United States person, that relates to the ability of the United States to protect against--
`(aa) actual or potential attack or other grave hostile acts of a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
`(bb) sabotage or international terrorism by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; or
`(cc) clandestine intelligence activities by an intelligence service or network of a foreign power or by an agent of foreign power; or
`(II) information, whether or not concerning a United States person, with respect to a foreign power or foreign territory that relates to--
`(aa) the national defense or the security of the United States; or
`(bb) the conduct of the foreign affairs of the United States.'.
(2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Rule 6(e)(3)(D) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure is amended by striking `(e)(3)(C)(i)' and inserting `(e)(3)(C)(i)(I)'.
(b) AUTHORITY TO SHARE ELECTRONIC, WIRE, AND ORAL INTERCEPTION INFORMATION-
(1) LAW ENFORCEMENT- Section 2517 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting at the end the following:
`(6) Any investigative or law enforcement officer, or attorney for the Government, who by any means authorized by this chapter, has obtained knowledge of the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication, or evidence derived therefrom, may disclose such contents to any other Federal law enforcement, intelligence, protective, immigration, national defense, or national security official to the extent that such contents include foreign intelligence or counterintelligence (as defined in section 3 of the National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. 401a)), or foreign intelligence information (as defined in subsection (19) of section 2510 of this title), to assist the official who is to receive that information in the performance of his official duties. Any Federal official who receives information pursuant to this provision may use that information only as necessary in the conduct of that person's official duties subject to any limitations on the unauthorized disclosure of such information.'.
(2) DEFINITION- Section 2510 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by--
(A) in paragraph (17), by striking `and' after the semicolon;
(B) in paragraph (18), by striking the period and inserting `; and'; and
(C) by inserting at the end the following:
`(19) `foreign intelligence information' means--
`(A) information, whether or not concerning a United States person, that relates to the ability of the United States to protect against--
`(i) actual or potential attack or other grave hostile acts of a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
`(ii) sabotage or international terrorism by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; or
`(iii) clandestine intelligence activities by an intelligence service or network of a foreign power or by an agent of a foreign power; or
`(B) information, whether or not concerning a United States person, with respect to a foreign power or foreign territory that relates to--
`(i) the national defense or the security of the United States; or
`(ii) the conduct of the foreign affairs of the United States.'.
(c) PROCEDURES- The Attorney General shall establish procedures for the disclosure of information pursuant to section 2517(6) and Rule 6(e)(3)(C)(i)(V) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure that identifies a United States person, as defined in section 101 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801)).
(d) FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION-
(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it shall be lawful for foreign intelligence or counterintelligence (as defined in section 3 of the National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. 401a)) or foreign intelligence information obtained as part of a criminal investigation to be disclosed to any Federal law enforcement, intelligence, protective, immigration, national defense, or national security official in order to assist the official receiving that information in the performance of his official duties. Any Federal official who receives information pursuant to this provision may use that information only as necessary in the conduct of that person's official duties subject to any limitations on the unauthorized disclosure of such information.
(2) DEFINITION- In this subsection, the term `foreign intelligence information' means--
(A) information, whether or not concerning a United States person, that relates to the ability of the United States to protect against--
(i) actual or potential attack or other grave hostile acts of a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
(ii) sabotage or international terrorism by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; or
(iii) clandestine intelligence activities by an intelligence service or network of a foreign power or by an agent of a foreign power; or
(B) information, whether or not concerning a United States person, with respect to a foreign power or foreign territory that relates to--
(i) the national defense or the security of the United States; or
(ii) the conduct of the foreign affairs of the United States.
This has nothing whatsoever with piracy or the subject of the thread.

Please stop trying to confuse the issue.
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#54
2nd December 2011
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Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
the Patriot act has been invoked in computer fraud cases. It allows for wiretaps and evidence collection which exceeds the legislation proposed against an end user. If we wish to stop piracy, the end user of pirated materials must be a significant target for prosecution.


one point I have been thinking of a lot is this though-

pirated media is generally fairly large in data volume, and almost all internet service providers in the US are moving to a volume based pricing model. Since the providers will be billing against usage, it seems to me they would be wanting to preserve piracy in order for them to maximize their billing- thus, they are now a significant accessory to the crime and financially benefit from it. Thus allowing them to be prosecuted for traffiking in IP theft.

thoghts?
Again, The Patriot Act has no real bearing on this forum and is not appropriate for discussion - except in one minor way, which is to illustrate my point that the government has far more effective tools to use when they want to suppress something on the internet for political purposes than SOPA/PROTECTIP. It's like comparing a cavalry sabre to a plastic picnic knife.

You're reinforcing my point, not yours.
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3rd December 2011
Old 3rd December 2011
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
This has nothing whatsoever with piracy or the subject of the thread.

Please stop trying to confuse the issue.


Adam McGaughey, the webmaster of a fan site for the television show Stargate SG-1, was charged with copyright infringement and computer fraud. During the investigation, the FBI invoked a provision of the Act to obtain financial records from the site's Internet Service Provider.[10] The USA PATRIOT Act amended the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act to include search and seizure of records from Internet Service Providers.

the Patriot Act used against copyright violation....

is this inaccurate John? is it not germaine to the conversation of tools which presently exist in order to address copyright infringement?

if so, please expound....
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#56
3rd December 2011
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Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
metered usage would be disastrous for the future of the internet. the fact that australia doesn't have netflix or spotify kind of says it all doesn't it? It's just a last-gasp power grab by the obsolete cable companies and doesn't have anything to do with piracy.
AT&T here in the US recently unilaterally terminated all unlimited service and moved all customers to metered usage. No warning, no recourse, even for those with long standing accounts. For some time previous they had been capping data rates at below the contracted for rate, too. They used the change as a tool for shifting customers over to their new fiber based "Uverse" system which features a somewhat larger data cap, higher speed, and most notably, AT&T's own content delivery system for the more "advanced" packages.
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#57
3rd December 2011
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Originally Posted by Rust Creep View Post
Great.. more laws that under the guise of "for the public" that will ultimately strip americans of further freedoms... arent there laws and means of dealing with piracy already?

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Not in any effective or adequate way, no. I guess you haven't read much of the forum yet, have you?
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3rd December 2011
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Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
thankfully I have fios and verizon doesn't appear to be planning any data caps. if they did it would basically make it impossible for me to work at home anymore. I hope there will be a big consumer backlash against data caps in the US, if not legislation against it.
AT&T didn't "appear" to be planning any data caps, either. They just did it. Good luck!
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#59
3rd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
BitTorrent is second at 16.5 percent, according to stats collected in September.

so we know who and where the pirate downloaders might be..... interesting.....

funny that Bit Torrent isnt mentioned in SOPA......
No need for it to be. Bit Torrent is just a protocol - like FTP. It's not an organized network like Limewire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB View Post
well you can't use bittorrent without the tracker sites right? so presumably sopa could help block the domain names of bittorrent trackers.
Exactly. And the few trackers that do not deal in illegal content would be left alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
thats all well and good- but the people downloading are as much the criminals as the Torrent Sites. If the culture of theft is going to be changed, you make theft have a serious- and I mean REALLY serious penalty.
Well, no, not really. Downloaders should be subject to sanctions such as losing their private internet access but serious criminal penalties? No. It would create a logjam in the courts and be unworkable i various other ways. And morally it's the equivalent of sending a kid to the pen for shoplifting candy. A trip downtown and community service is enough.

Uploaders and site owners are a different story because they actually engage in wholesale distribution of stolen IP.
#60
3rd December 2011
Old 3rd December 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Average UK speeds drop by 35% during evening peak hours.
Best speeds are after 3am
uSwitch: UK broadband speeds slow by 35 per cent at peak times | Mail Online
The answer to that is to upgrade the infrastructure, not scale back service. I understand that it must be frustrating to live in a country that has problems with its infrastructure but that's no reason to wish that other people should have to take a step backwards.
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