Why dongles hurt developers and buyers

[rksguit]

Originally Posted by RonGherkins

I agree with everything you've said, and am proud to be %100 legit in the box.



That said, I'd much rather have my ilok 2 than have to deal with the stupid NI Service center.

Same here[100% point]..........As far as NI, Iv'e had NO problem on 2 machines with Komplete[lite].When I see a plugin,and then there are the words:"Must be authorised with ilok",I leave.Again Im super grateful "cakewalk,Don't Crack[ironically],N.I.,and all the others" that DON'T use "iLok"are around. PS I didn't realize the "iLok/Chrome situation.I only use Chrome,Safari occaisionally,and have un-installed I.E............yet another reason to steer well clear of "iLok"!

[Quantum7]

I will take a dongle with Cubase, Vienna Instruments, and East West PLAY (Play and Vienna Instruments has never been cracked and Cubase 6 has not been cracked yet) over the PITA Native Instruments authorization process any day. I can re-install my OS or change computers without any hassle with the dongle. Long live the dongle!

[GearNerd]

Originally Posted by famousbass

Every single time someone has an argument for piracy (which is any variation other than outright ownership) we get these long, mangled threads that are charged with emotion, some wisdom and lots of stupidity, illegalities, economic modelling, sales strategies, tricky arguments, paranoia, conspiracy theories and what everyone out there thinks of the income of a developer.
Piracy is illegal.
It is so because it is wrong.
It is wrong because it is stealing.
It is stealing because the worker is never going to receive all his wages.
And that's how real it is. Someone who worked hard didn't get paid by someone who has privately obtained their product and uses it.
Which of you idealist piracy advocates entered the music game thinking it should be somehow cheap or free?
Music is not free.
Real music making costs money.
Advocacy for piracy is tinseltown anarchy.

Mr.Obvious no one here is for piracy, it would be stupid to think so. I have not seen posts for piracy. If you are against dongles and cumbersome copy protection schemes, that doesn´t mean you advocate piracy. That´s like saying if you are against TSA microwaving and groping your children, you are for terrorism!

And every person getting 75000$ a year for working in a DAW plugin company? That´s just crazy. Maybe at Waves or UA, if you´re lucky. Even politicians get paid less (if you don´t count the under the table "donations"). If the software companies get paid this much, they have nothing to worry about.

And it´s still a fact that those who use cracks, wouldn´t bought the product anyways. So copy protections are just useless and most of these products are cracked anyways, so it´s just waste of money, resources and precious time of developers and legit customers. It´s stupid stupid stupid! No wonder why so many of these plugins and software have so many bugs and problems! Fix your products developers and stop worrying about the 14 year old "bedroom producers"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by GearNerd

And it´s still a fact that those who use cracks, wouldn´t bought the product anyways.

It's NOT a fact. It's believable that SOME who use cracks wouldn't have bought the product.
BIG difference.

Fix your products developers and stop worrying about the 14 year old "bedroom producers"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So the only people using cracked software are 14 year old bedroom producers?????
Or the majority of people using cracks are 14 year old bedroom producers?????
Nooooo tutt

Fix the product? Most products are really good, that's why so many people want to use them (illegally).

[MadforBrad]

i think the OP is somewhat ignoring a few things.

Despite the fact that everything you said , regardless of logic, is conjecture as you just don't know. You did make some arguments that are not very compelling. One argument that seemed to lack a logical backing was that people who use cracks will eventually buy software. Ok lets entertain that this is true, how does this say anything regarding them not buying software with a dongle. Dongles do get cracked albeit not very often. So that route is possible with dongled software.

Your comment about hurting the user ? You don't know how the dongle is impacting sales and the sales that would be lost if cracks were so easy to implement. So if the dongle protects the integrity and boosts sales, then the user is not penalized.

I imagine the decision to use a dongle is not a light one. I also think that as a company, your number one goal is to stay solvent. Your goal is to profit. This is what business does. If you aren't profiting, you aren't going to survive. It isn't some nefarious shock capitalism approach, it is the foundation of running a business well. Every decision, is based on the bottom line. Now i am sure there are examples of companies that went out of business because of piracy. Their users were not just hurt but they no longer have a means for support. The company is dead. THink of a dongle like certain building codes that require ridiculous policies because there was a very windy day 50 years ago, one that was never repeated not 50 years prior or up to today. Is it likely? no. But are you willing to risk your company when you can implement a method that has a certain level of success in preventing piracy.

Until companies have more knowledge regarding piracy, I don't think you can really fault them for that sort of decision. Many if not most of the products using dongles are the ones that involve a lot of overhead. They might have board members to account for, employees to account for.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by blue monk

With dongles you get not more but fewer sales as a developer, you will earn less money per sale and you will spend time fixing problems caused by the dongle.

how would you know? do you develop and sell audio software?

[chrisso]

MadforBrad, I agree with just about everything in your post (FWIW).

[Squidy]

I've got friends who have massive cracked libraries of VST plugins and software but I buy all mine. They give me crap about it all the time, however I have a reason for buying it.

They sit there, download heaps of software etc and then mucjk around with it then download more. Massive libraries of the stuff. The problem is, they download it, go "cool" and that's it. I buy my software and go "well, I paid $800 for it, let's get the party started". Because I've paid a lot for it I'm more tempted to use it whereas they brely use theirs, it seems like it's just there so they can say they have it. However buying it, and spending your own hard earned money on it, gives you a drive to actually get in and explore it.

If I got my software for free I'd probably be lazy, but since I paid for it I use it all the time.

[chrisso]

Agreed.

Dongles are fine. Users are whiners. Me 2c.

[wakestyle]

Originally Posted by soulstudios

Dongles are fine. Users are whiners. Me 2c.

Well one dongle is fine... two is maximum. anymore is impossible.

[AwwDeOhh]

Originally Posted by wakestyle

Well one dongle is fine... two is maximum. anymore is impossible.

How many dongles do you need?
Most will hold multiple authentications on them.

[chrisso]

Unfortunately there are a few floating around.
The UAD thing is a dongle, then there are iLoks 1 and 2. Vengeance samples uses a third dongle system (can't remember the name).

[AwwDeOhh]

Funny...
i type "iLok" into Bing, and the second 'auto-complete' suggestion is "iLok Crack"... same thing with a Google search...


anyhow, from the iLok website:
iLok Support Center - FAQ

Q:How many licenses can the new version of the iLok hold?

The new version of the iLok typically holds over 500 licenses. Depending on the type of licenses you own, the iLok may hold far more.

Granted this is the new iLock version, but still..

So if you happen to use the Vengence samples (admittedly haven't heard of them until now), that's two usb sticks you need. Otherwise one.
Dunno if i'd put the UAD DSP cards in the same boat as those. Yes the plugs are dependent on the hardware, but it's more than just a locking device.

[chrisso]

It's just that USB and Firewire slots in computers are becoming thin on the ground.

[The Real MC]

Originally Posted by work2do

Please post your evidence. Let's see the sales numbers. You can't just make up opinion as fact.

As a matter of fact, I was talking to my buddy last weekend who has his own project studio. When I asked him if he had any plugins that used iLok he said he steadfastly refused to install anything on his computer that uses iLok.

And this guy makes plenty of money and can buy whatever he wants, uses zero cracked software.

[Don Hills]

Originally Posted by chrisso

It's just that USB and Firewire slots in computers are becoming thin on the ground.

Firewire, yes. (Although they were never ubiquitous.)
USB, no.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by blue monk

With dongles you get not more but fewer sales as a developer, you will earn less money per sale and you will spend time fixing problems caused by the dongle.

I'm no fan of dongles but frankly, that's nonsense, especially the first phrase of the sentence. If it's a product people want they will buy it, dongle or not - unless they steal it.

From my experience and view point 90 to 99% of people who get cracked software are mostly motivated to entertain the idea of being some great artist and not actually making it happen.
What they really want is something to dream about, not achieving a goal (despite they would claim they want to achieve a goal - they don`t).
Instead of learning to get the most out of what they have, they get more cracked software - because actually doing something would be work
Making art is not as simple as watching TV and many people don`t want to leave their comfort zone.
It`s also that many of those who get nowhere don`t trust in their ability to accomplish anything, so they give up whenever the first challenge comes along.
The point is, even if the software they downloaded as crack wouldn`t be available as crack, they still wouldn`t buy it.

No, the point is that these people really don't need the software anyway, so it really doesn't matter if it's dongled or not. Why should companies drop the dongle to cater to the whims of people who are not actually customers?

There may be a few who actually make money with music and use cracks but from my experience the most common scenario is that people who are serious about doing something creative buy the software they use.

Sadly, that's not true.

I feel strengthened in that claim by my personal observation that people who started out makin music as a hobby with cracked software stopped using cracks and started buying when making music became a major part of their lives.

Once a person gets in the habit of stealing it's hard to break.

I think without cracks being available, the developer will not sell more. Instead, the extra cost of the dongle and the hassle that come with it and the software means many lost sales. It`s like an additional sales tax, causes problems (see the "What the Flux?"-thread) that the developers have to spend time on fixing. That`s time they don`t have to develop new functions and new plug-ins.

Ah, but cracks are available. And when they become available sales tend to drop. As much as 50%, according to some reps I've talked to.

Dongles hurts the developers` business and the buyers. It`s nonsense.

Well, they're certainly annoying to customers, especially when a company like Waves uses their own nonstandard and arcane scheme of registration on a standard iLok. But it's not a dealbreaker. And if it really bugs you that much for every program with a dongle there are several with the same functionality without one. Maybe the user interface isn't as slick, but so what?

edit: I have both elicenser and ilok dongles by the way just to point out that I am pragmatic enough.

?!

*
There`s a lot of software collectors who get all kinds of cracked expensive software like for aircraft construction or something and among that also all DAWs on the planet and they never even install it.

So why should any company care what they think? They're not even potential customers. They're like people who buy stolen art they can't show anybody and keep it in a vault just so they can have it. Hoarding mentality.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by choukette

we can reverse your argument,

NI, waves, steinberg, eastwest, izotope, softube, brainworx ... are all cracked since the begining and continue to release software due to their large customers base.

and thzt just show how copy protection doesn't have any positive impact on software business,

Simply untrue. Steinberg saw a 50% drop in sales* when H2O released their dongle crack - to the point where it was a major factor in discontinuing C3 and rushing the introduction of C4 with a new implementation of the protection. Same thing with C5.

* - According to a senior factory rep I talked to at AES concerning the matter of dongle protection.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Masaaki

I'm fine with dongles, but certainly it is a little bit (not huge) inconvenience when I move around between desktops and laptops.

I prefer the way Adobe does for CS, or the way MS does for Win OS installation, by activating and authorizing over the net. Then, I wish they license three computers per license, like they do for Office Home/Student.

Where the dongle is actually superior to the authorization method is for professional engineers who work in many different studios, often in different cities. They can carry all their authorizations on an iLok and it doesn't matter how many different systems they work on.

Also, authorization systems are a big pain in the arse if you upgrade your hardware configuration frequently.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by choukette

and how are you maximizing revenue from people who are ready to wait to have the free downloaded version of those softwares ?

Those people are NOT CUSTOMERS. They're not gonna be customers, so they simply don't enter into the equation. Who cares about 'em? Besides themselves, of course......

[John Eppstein]

You know, I have the perfect solution for all this. Dump the darn computer and go all analog. Your initial investment will be a lot higher and you'll have maintenance and tape costs but you'll never have to worry about copy protection again!

And your work will most likely sound better.

[sodium glow]

Ugh...