Login / Register
 
Save the music industry/Help economy - End Piracy!
Subscribe
#31
11th November 2011
Old 11th November 2011
  #31
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
As Don Henley once said, "I will not go quietly"...
#32
16th November 2011
Old 16th November 2011
  #32
Gear Head
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44

Ojustaboo is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
I'm not naive enough to believe piracy can be completely eliminated. But, i'm of the belief that it doesn't have to be completely eliminated to not be the major factor it is today.
A "good enough" solution is all that is needed. Keep honest people honest... let the hacker pukes do what they do, just keep it in their little circles..
Trouble is, most teenagers I know all know exactly what sites to go to to get the latest films, music etc.

I don't believe that anything can be done now to combat Piracy from a law/ISP point, I'm not condoning piracy, I just really really don't see what can be done.

The internet is like this huge man made virus that's been released on the world and nothing can be done to combat it.

OK obviously the internet is excellent in many areas, its just that as far as piracy is concerned, as far as teenagers, uni students etc are concerned, it's something that's simply got out of control and I don't see any way of raining it back.

It's no longer just geeky hackers with the knowledge.

I would like to know what realistically can be done to prevent piracy, I cant see anything, this is a genuine question.

For example the UK, US or wherever brings out laws blocking certain sites, what's to stop anyone using a VPN to make out they're in a different country, these cost less and less and the ISP would have zero knowledge of what sites you are accessing through one. And while VPN might be unknown to a lot of people, a 5 line description can tell a student etc how to set one up and if the sites get blocked, this sort of info will get spread around in hours.

My daughters at Uni in the UK, her circle of friends are all studying things like History, English etc, nothing technical. All of them for example know how to stream US TV shows straight to their laptops yet if you or I went to those sites, we would get told they're not available to those living outside the US.

Someone in a country say Russia, China or where ever, sets up a site with pirate links etc, there's simply nothing any UK/US isp can do to stop people accessing it and no law in say the UK will apply to the web owners in say Russia.

A few years ago I would have agreed that it's more of a geek thing, but nowadays, instructions, sites, links etc are passed around via pms, facebook, email etc almost instantaneously and its no longer just the geeks that have no problems accessing it.

The cat has been let out of the bag and I don't see anyway of stopping it.

I also worry about teenagers being criminalised for something that's always gone on. As I've said in another post, 32 years ago when I was 15, I taped loads off the radio, I'd go out and buy say the latest Stranglers LP, my friend would buy the latest Damned LP, I would tape his and he would tape mine.

This has always gone on which is why a lot of parents shrug their shoulders at it.

However, what is different now is that if the internet was around then, what would probably have happened is, I would have downloaded the latest Stranglers, Damned, Buzzcocks Ramones etc etc etc album without spending a single penny on any as would have my friends.

With so many consumer products for the youth to spend their money on nowadays, having virtually the entire worlds music library available to download from numerous different locations free of charge with just a couple of clicks of a mouse, I imagine that if I was a teenager, I would be doing the same.

Again I'm not in anyway condoning piracy but I do think people need to get away from the argument that downloading music is the same as breaking into a store and stealing a physical item. If you use the argument that piracy is theft, piracy is stealing etc, you simply end up with thousands of people shaking their heads and saying (correctly in my opinion) that photocopying a book, copying someones DVD, downloading something etc is not the same as going into someones house and depriving them of a physical item, stealing their car etc.

People will use such arguments such as "If I go into your house, identical shape and size to mine, and see you have a bespoke kitchen built, I like it and build an identical one, or I see a pic on your wall, I'm a 1st class artise and I go back to my studio and paint an identical copy, I have not stolen anything"

I agree with the above 100%. There's a huge difference between stealing something and not rewarding someone for using their invention.

Again, I'm not trying to stick up for pirating, I'm simply saying if people really want this addressed, people need to stop the piracy is theft argument and use a completely different approach instead.

Personally I think a short advert on the beginning of a DVD or in the cinema not mentioning the word theft, but constructively pointing out how you would feel if you invented something but never got rewarded for your hard work, it would have a much bigger effect than simply using an argument that really isn't factual no matter how deprived people whose work is pirated might feel.

We need to change peoples attitude, it is possible, it will take time but if its approached ion the right way, I believe piracy could be severely reduced, but we need to start this from a sensible view point that's not going to get people switching off at the first second when they're accused of being a thief.
#33
16th November 2011
Old 16th November 2011
  #33
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Wellington NZ
Posts: 1,355

Don Hills is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo View Post
... Personally I think a short advert on the beginning of a DVD or in the cinema not mentioning the word theft, but constructively pointing out how you would feel if you invented something but never got rewarded for your hard work, it would have a much bigger effect than simply using an argument that really isn't factual no matter how deprived people whose work is pirated might feel.

We need to change peoples attitude, it is possible, it will take time but if its approached ion the right way, I believe piracy could be severely reduced, but we need to start this from a sensible view point that's not going to get people switching off at the first second when they're accused of being a thief.
The police / Govt where I live have been campaigning against drink / driving for a long time. It's very hard to get the message through to the typical teenager who thinks he's bulletproof. The most effective themes have been those that resonate strongly - where the teenagers relate to the message content and realise that it does apply to them. The same feeling they get when one of their close friends dies in a drink / drive accident.

Any successful campaign for copyright infringement is going to have to do the same thing. As you said, it's going to have to find a way to connect with the target audience, to find something in their own lives that they can relate it to.

As for adverts at the beginning of DVDs, I have this to say:
(Warning, profanity)

http://images.somethingawful.com/mjo...72004/Puck.jpg

And this:
(Warning, profanity)
http://www.joefulgham.com/wp-content...03/piracy2.jpg

Note that the above image is arguably a copyright infringement, being a "Photoshop Job" of this image:

http://www.digital-digest.com/blog/D.../piratedvd.png
#34
16th November 2011
Old 16th November 2011
  #34
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: State of Insomnia, sleepless USA
Posts: 2,513

AwwDeOhh is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo View Post
Trouble is, most teenagers I know all know exactly what sites to go to to get the latest films, music etc.

I don't believe that anything can be done now to combat Piracy from a law/ISP point, I'm not condoning piracy, I just really really don't see what can be done.
...
That's my point. Most teenagers aren't hackers. if the big pirate sites didn't exist, or the access was blocked, most wouldn't know what to do.
It used to be that only actual hackers could farm information that they were looking for. Anyone that can type a search into Google can find these sites, it should NOT be that easy. Keep making it harder and harder to to the wrong thing, and more people will do the right thing.
#35
17th November 2011
Old 17th November 2011
  #35
Gear Head
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 44

Ojustaboo is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
As for adverts at the beginning of DVDs, I have this to say:
He he, I agree with you 100%. Wasn't suggesting they put the adverts there, more that if they insist on having them, at least put ones that might in some way connect with people.

I know a few people that never used to touch pirate stuff, brought certain games that took ages to start up and insisted on having the cd/dvd in the drive etc. They went to gaming forums to see why it was taking so long to start, only to be told it was the anti piracy measures requiring the cd/dvd and this is what's causing the long start up time.

Numerous posts also suggested there were patches around the internet getting around this, allowing their games to start instantly and not needing the cd/dvd permanently the drive, giving people hints on what to google for as they weren't allowed to post the links in the forum.

So people googled and what did they find, sites with numerous pirated software.

These people who had no experience of pirate sites, only discovered the sites due to the antipiracy measures inconveniencing legitimate users.

They then realised that people who pay, get long load times, need their media in the drives permanently, while those that don't pay, still get their stuff for free, only get the proper experience, instant load times, no media needed in the drives etc, and obviously they feel a little cheated.

A largish percentage of these also give into the temptation of "I'll just give it a quick try, then delete if I don't like or buy if I do" and download other software from these sites, and while some do, many of course never get around to paying for it.

The point being that these people were driven to these sites in the first place by the publishers etc.

My father brought a CD and it wouldn't play on his main cd player but played on others. I had a look and it was due to copy protection. Such good copy protection that within 3 mins of me using google, I found a way to copy it for him and the copy played fine on his main player, its this kind of thing that really hacks people off, and introduces people to the sites with info on how to get around protection etc.

And while there are numerous s/w writers and musicians struggling to make a living, when the average person experiences copy protection that really inconveniences them, and they see various rich pop stars etc with their lavish lifestyles, or they hear that Bill Gates is one of the worlds richest men, then see these pop stars and the likes of MS saying things need to be done about piracy, they have little sympathy for them (note, I'm not at all saying people are right to think this, just saying how people on the street see it)

And of course there's also the challenge aspect. In the days before the internet, my friend brought me round a game to borrow. It had something called Lens Lock protection. You had to hold this plastic lens over this garbled piece of the screen, it would allow you to read the letters and you typed them in to play.

I wasn't that interested in the game, but did find it a challenge to see if I could get the game to run without the lens lock. My friend bet me I couldn't. I fired up my assembler s/w, 3 hours later I had done it. That was like a game to me, I had conquered it. OK I never passed a copy around to anyone. But can I honestly say that if the internet was available, I wouldn't have wanted to brag about cracking it? And of course people would have wanted proof, hence I suspect I would have uploaded it. I imagine many of todays hackers operate in the same way, not so much to pirate stuff, more like they see it as some sort of mental puzzle they want to solve.
#36
17th November 2011
Old 17th November 2011
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Wellington NZ
Posts: 1,355

Don Hills is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo View Post
... And of course there's also the challenge aspect. In the days before the internet, my friend brought me round a game to borrow. It had something called Lens Lock protection. You had to hold this plastic lens over this garbled piece of the screen, it would allow you to read the letters and you typed them in to play. ...
Thanks for the memory... not.
I'd just about managed to forget about LensLok, and "uncopyable" code sheets printed dark red on dark blue, custom loaders, and... no, I can't go on. I hated it, and just like you I eventually derived more satisfaction from cracking the copy protection than playing the games. (My day job was debugging crashes in mainframe computer software.)

Back to the topic, you might be interested in this:

http://convergenceculture.org/resear..._loyalists.pdf

It discusses social engineering, and the point that law enforcement on its own will not be enough.
#37
17th November 2011
Old 17th November 2011
  #37
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 22,487

chrisso is online now
Law enforcement on it's own isn't enough of course.
Is anyone suggesting law enforcement on it's own.
Some law enforcement would be a start of course.
But I keep seeing people suggest education on it's own.

People die when they drink and drive. People die from smoking cigarettes.
50 years or more in, billions spent in education and advertising and a lot of people still DUI and smoke.
No one dies when music is pirated.
Education should be a lower priority IMO.
__________________
Chris Whitten
#38
17th November 2011
Old 17th November 2011
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Wellington NZ
Posts: 1,355

Don Hills is online now
Drink / driving law enforcement has a high priority, in this country at least.
Smoking isn't illegal. No-one has the resources to directly counteract the tobacco company lobbying. The best we can do is kill the market by making smoking socially unacceptable / too expensive. (Our Govt charges very high sales tax on tobacco.)

As for your other point: You and "the others" are pushing law enforcement as the only thing that is going to make a significant difference. A "silver bullet". You may disagree, but your posting history speaks for itself. My view is that it isn't going to be enough on its own - and I agree with you that education on its own isn't going to be enough either.
#39
18th November 2011
Old 18th November 2011
  #39
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: State of Insomnia, sleepless USA
Posts: 2,513

AwwDeOhh is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
As for your other point: You and "the others" are pushing law enforcement as the only thing that is going to make a significant difference. A "silver bullet". You may disagree, but your posting history speaks for itself. My view is that it isn't going to be enough on its own - and I agree with you that education on its own isn't going to be enough either.
I think you may be misunderstanding our position (or at least mine)

My point is that without some law enforcement, any other measure won't be effective.
In other words, any 'other' measure is predicated on some enforcement of the laws. Enforcement on it's own isn't the solution, but to implement those other parts of the puzzle, you first need puzzle pieces to place.

We've been trying those 'other' measures for over a decade... the only thing that's been missing is the enforcement.
#40
18th November 2011
Old 18th November 2011
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Wellington NZ
Posts: 1,355

Don Hills is online now
I don't have a problem with adding effective enforcement. I do have a problem if it has the potential to be used in ways for which it was not originally intended - or deliberately written to allow uses in ways other than its stated purpose. "Trust us, we're the Government, we'll never abuse this law with its powers that are much broader than those needed to enforce its stated purpose." Uh huh.
#41
18th November 2011
Old 18th November 2011
  #41
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: State of Insomnia, sleepless USA
Posts: 2,513

AwwDeOhh is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I don't have a problem with adding effective enforcement. I do have a problem if it has the potential to be used in ways for which it was not originally intended - or deliberately written to allow uses in ways other than its stated purpose. "Trust us, we're the Government, we'll never abuse this law with its powers that are much broader than those needed to enforce its stated purpose." Uh huh.
Well, me either to tell ya the truth. I just don't think that is the case with these particular Bills.
Anyhow, the law isn't static. If there does happen to be abuses (which i highly doubt -- at least to the degree being argued), there's always the option to modify the bill. IMO these Bills are the correction to the DMCA.
#42
18th November 2011
Old 18th November 2011
  #42
Banned
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 911

GearOnTheGo is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I don't have a problem with adding effective enforcement. I do have a problem if it has the potential to be used in ways for which it was not originally intended - or deliberately written to allow uses in ways other than its stated purpose. "Trust us, we're the Government, we'll never abuse this law with its powers that are much broader than those needed to enforce its stated purpose." Uh huh.
So paranoia is valid when stealing from artists, but not protecting them?

C'mon... That's convenient logic.
#43
18th November 2011
Old 18th November 2011
  #43
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 22,487

chrisso is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post

As for your other point: You and "the others" are pushing law enforcement as the only thing that is going to make a significant difference.
The only significant difference yes. In no way does that mean ignoring all other options. I think you totally wrong to suggest that's our position.
But it's rather fruitless to stand by as people run out the store with all your looted product while you say "I don't think you should do that".
People are more tempted to do the right thing once they see a chance of being caught.
The London riots were a prime example.
Normally most people are pretty law abiding. Mass lawbreaking broke out and reigned unchecked until the first few arrested looters appeared in court. then magically the looting stopped.
#44
18th November 2011
Old 18th November 2011
  #44
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 22,487

chrisso is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
I think you may be misunderstanding our position (or at least mine)

My point is that without some law enforcement, any other measure won't be effective.
In other words, any 'other' measure is predicated on some enforcement of the laws. Enforcement on it's own isn't the solution, but to implement those other parts of the puzzle, you first need puzzle pieces to place.
Perfectly put.
#45
18th November 2011
Old 18th November 2011
  #45
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Wellington NZ
Posts: 1,355

Don Hills is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearOnTheGo View Post
So paranoia is valid when stealing from artists, but not protecting them?

C'mon... That's convenient logic.
I'm an equal opportunity paranoid. I'd be just as suspicious of the motives of a law removing copyright enforcement - for example, what would you say if the Govt decided to repeal the DMCA?
#46
18th November 2011
Old 18th November 2011
  #46
Lives for gear
 
AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: State of Insomnia, sleepless USA
Posts: 2,513

AwwDeOhh is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I'm an equal opportunity paranoid. I'd be just as suspicious of the motives of a law removing copyright enforcement - for example, what would you say if the Govt decided to repeal the DMCA?
If they replaced it with something that actually worked, i'd be very happy...
#47
20th November 2011
Old 20th November 2011
  #47
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,996

John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidy View Post
I agree about ending piracy. I don't agree with not being able to buy a single song off itunes though. I prefer to buy full albums but some don't. Besides if someone has to pay for a full album to hear one song for testing or for good memories sake etc they're just going to go "screw this" and go download it free. Most people won't pay for a full albums price for one song they want, if they had to it would actually encourage piracy.

Giving them the option of one song for one price gives their cheap arses a far better chance of buying it instead of downloading it free.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Gearslutz.com
Artista should have the right to control how their music is presented. When a band like Pink Floyd creates a work like DSOM or THE WALL that work is intended to be listened to IN ITS ENTIRETY, not piecemeal. The artist should have the right to specify that and actually does, legally. However with uncontrolled piracy the artists lost control of how their music is presented and legal music sites were forced to unbundle albums to compete.

This is bad on an artistic level - it's like somebody printing a picture of only the Mona Lisa's right eye and presenting it as a work of Leonardo. It diminishes the artistic value.

It's not a question of economics or business, it's a question of artist and the artist's right to have their work presented in the manner it was conceived.
__________________
All opinions expressed in my posts are solely my own: I do not represent any other forums (of which I may or may not be a member), groups, or individuals although at times my views may resemble those of other entities.

************************************
Inside every old man is a young man wondering WTF happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
#48
21st November 2011
Old 21st November 2011
  #48
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,996

John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shore View Post
I beleive hunger, invasion of suverign countries, enslavement thru financial predatory policies and many more viscious deeds are well accepted and being a norm in 2011. They're actually legalizied. He worries about downloading free songs off the net?! That's your concern? Really?
This is the piracy forum. We discuss piracy here. You want to talk about all that other stuff, fine, go somewhere else.
#49
21st November 2011
Old 21st November 2011
  #49
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,996

John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
But I visited as an American citizen. I didn't pay any French taxes for access to the Louvre. It is also free to all foreign visitors that don't pay French taxes (British, German, Chinese, etc).



The point is that in certain circumstances, the perception of the product (or service) is "free" or "devalued". How those circumstances come about behind the curtains (the French taxes) are irrelevant to me. I have only visited the Louvre for free. I have never paid for admission. Does it mean the Mona Lisa is worth less (or even worthless) to me? Possibly.
Specious argument.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/specious+argument

Sophism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
No. Artists' intent is not enough against the tide of public perception (and technological progress). Basically, artists' intent is irrelevant even though we'd would wish it to be otherwise.
You are wrong. Artists intent is everything. If you don't understand that you have no business being on a music production forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
I wasn't speaking about the letter of the law. I was talking philosophically.
Which is why I answered you philosophically. Your argument is specious. Philosophically speaking.

Quote:
In any case, you cannot enforce against piracy of intellectual property. It's impossible. Some folks think it can be done at the ISP level by sniffing traffic 24/7 but for endless technical reasons, that won't work either.
Of course you can. Not by "sniffing at the ISP level", which is impractical if not impossible, but by blocking sites, seizing domains, preventing site access to payment companies, and criminally prosecuting site owners and uploaders.

In case you're not aware of it, piracy is a federal felony that can carry heavy fines (different from suit settlements) and hard time in prison. Now. Legislation that has been on the books for years but was neglected during the past decade.

Quote:
Musicians, authors, artists all have a right to earn a living but it will have to be done in a way that can coexist with uncontrolled piracy. I believe a new revenue model will be invented that makes piracy irrelevant. Unfortunately, we (the industry) haven't figured it out yet.
Nonsense.

Quote:
Quote:
Perceptions will change...
And your evidence for this is?
History. Perceptions always change. That's one of the things that the freetards and apologists are always saying, without actually understanding what it means.

"Things are different now, dood! Piracy is the new thing! Things have CHANGED, dawg, just live with it!"

And all that similar twaddle. These people think that things have changed, so now they'll always be that way. Think again, kid. Sure things have changed. What would possibly cause you to think that it's permanent? (answer: youthful naivete. And inexperience). Change is coming - again- and faster than you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
But I visited as an American citizen. I didn't pay any French taxes for access to the Louvre. It is also free to all foreign visitors that don't pay French taxes (British, German, Chinese, etc).
Hmmm. Tourism isn't much of an industry in the area you live in, is it?

Well, it is where I live and I can tell you, the local government will do all manner of promotions and giveaways to promote tourism. The reason you can go the Louvre for free is because if they supply a bunch of tourist attractions for free or cheap they can gouge the holy crap out of you for hotels, restaurants, and souvenir knicknacks. It's all a matter of attracting flies to honey. Lure the rich tourists to your fine locality so you can bleed 'em.

The analogy to issues here would be commercial radio and TV. They use material supplied by content owners, who get paid by the advertising funded broadcaster. The ads are paid by companies who hope to sell products to the audience for the creative works.

There's no real "free" involved.
#50
21st November 2011
Old 21st November 2011
  #50
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,996

John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo View Post
Trouble is, most teenagers I know all know exactly what sites to go to to get the latest films, music etc.

I don't believe that anything can be done now to combat Piracy from a law/ISP point, I'm not condoning piracy, I just really really don't see what can be done.

The internet is like this huge man made virus that's been released on the world and nothing can be done to combat it.

OK obviously the internet is excellent in many areas, its just that as far as piracy is concerned, as far as teenagers, uni students etc are concerned, it's something that's simply got out of control and I don't see any way of raining it back.

It's no longer just geeky hackers with the knowledge.

I would like to know what realistically can be done to prevent piracy, I cant see anything, this is a genuine question.

For example the UK, US or wherever brings out laws blocking certain sites, what's to stop anyone using a VPN to make out they're in a different country, these cost less and less and the ISP would have zero knowledge of what sites you are accessing through one. And while VPN might be unknown to a lot of people, a 5 line description can tell a student etc how to set one up and if the sites get blocked, this sort of info will get spread around in hours.

My daughters at Uni in the UK, her circle of friends are all studying things like History, English etc, nothing technical. All of them for example know how to stream US TV shows straight to their laptops yet if you or I went to those sites, we would get told they're not available to those living outside the US.



A few years ago I would have agreed that it's more of a geek thing, but nowadays, instructions, sites, links etc are passed around via pms, facebook, email etc almost instantaneously and its no longer just the geeks that have no problems accessing it.

The cat has been let out of the bag and I don't see anyway of stopping it.
There's a big difference between having an awareness of how to use a VPN to circumvent certain procedures but there's a big difference between knowing about it and going to the trouble of actually doing it.

The thing is, most people aren't interested in being hackers.

Quote:
Someone in a country say Russia, China or where ever, sets up a site with pirate links etc, there's simply nothing any UK/US isp can do to stop people accessing it and no law in say the UK will apply to the web owners in say Russia.
What do US ISPs have top do with it? This isn't done on an ISP level. This is done on the level of diplomacy. If Russia is tolerating sites that are violating other countries IP regulations those other countries simply explain to the Russian government that if they don't want economic sanctions they'l bring their part of the problem under control. Alternatively, those countries could simply block all internet access to Russia.

But it won't come to anything that heavy-handed. As Russia gets their economic problems under control it will be in their best interest to control that sort of thing. Just as it has recently become with China.

Quote:
I also worry about teenagers being criminalised for something that's always gone on. As I've said in another post, 32 years ago when I was 15, I taped loads off the radio, I'd go out and buy say the latest Stranglers LP, my friend would buy the latest Damned LP, I would tape his and he would tape mine.

This has always gone on which is why a lot of parents shrug their shoulders at it.
No, it hasn't. The difference now is widespread distribution. There is a fundamental difference between sharing with a couple friends and distributing to strangers all over the world.

As to "teenagers being criminalised", juvenile delinquents (as they used to call 'em when I was a kid) have ALWAYS been criminalized. The don't go to the Pen but the DO get sent to Juvie. You commit a felony, you go to prison. Commit a misdemeanor or offense, you pay a fine and it goes on your record.

Quote:
However, what is different now is that if the internet was around then, what would probably have happened is, I would have downloaded the latest Stranglers, Damned, Buzzcocks Ramones etc etc etc album without spending a single penny on any as would have my friends.
Lucky it wasn't around then, innit?

Quote:
With so many consumer products for the youth to spend their money on nowadays,
Kids have always had lots of different things to spend their money on. Nothing has changed except the details.

Quote:
I imagine that if I was a teenager, I would be doing the same.
You're saying this like it's something to be proud of?

Quote:
Again I'm not in anyway condoning piracy but I do think people need to get away from the argument that downloading music is the same as breaking into a store and stealing a physical item. If you use the argument that piracy is theft, piracy is stealing etc, you simply end up with thousands of people shaking their heads and saying (correctly in my opinion) that photocopying a book, copying someones DVD, downloading something etc is not the same as going into someones house and depriving them of a physical item, stealing their car etc.

People will use such arguments such as "If I go into your house, identical shape and size to mine, and see you have a bespoke kitchen built, I like it and build an identical one, or I see a pic on your wall, I'm a 1st class artise and I go back to my studio and paint an identical copy, I have not stolen anything"

I agree with the above 100%. There's a huge difference between stealing something and not rewarding someone for using their invention.

Again, I'm not trying to stick up for pirating, I'm simply saying if people really want this addressed, people need to stop the piracy is theft argument and use a completely different approach instead.
In fact you are sticking up for piracy.

And there is no difference. This has been debated over and over in this forum each time somebody comes along with that statement and I'm not going to bother typing it all again tonight. Go read the rest of the forum and come back. Or perhaps one of the other guys will provide you with some relevant links to get you started.

Quote:
Personally I think a short advert on the beginning of a DVD or in the cinema not mentioning the word theft, but constructively pointing out how you would feel if you invented something but never got rewarded for your hard work, it would have a much bigger effect than simply using an argument that really isn't factual no matter how deprived people whose work is pirated might feel.
Most people in the social classes we're speaking of refer to such notices as "jokes".

Quote:
We need to change peoples attitude, it is possible, it will take time but if its approached ion the right way, I believe piracy could be severely reduced, but we need to start this from a sensible view point that's not going to get people switching off at the first second when they're accused of being a thief.
No. The "right way" is not to coddle them. And people's attitudes won't change much merely by preaching at them. There has to be something backing up the preaching. As in real consequences for engaging in the activity.

A perfect example is the attitude toward drunk driving. When I was a kid drunk driving was, literally, a joke. Comedians used it as a subject for parts of their act. High school and college kids used cars as mobile saloons.

It sure isn't anymore. It it wasn't those ads on TV from MADD that made the change, although they did help a bit. It was the drastically strengthened and rigidly enforced LAWS against drunk driving that had the real effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojustaboo View Post

And while there are numerous s/w writers and musicians struggling to make a living, when the average person experiences copy protection that really inconveniences them, and they see various rich pop stars etc with their lavish lifestyles, or they hear that Bill Gates is one of the worlds richest men, then see these pop stars and the likes of MS saying things need to be done about piracy, they have little sympathy for them (note, I'm not at all saying people are right to think this, just saying how people on the street see it)
You mean like this?



Quote:
And of course there's also the challenge aspect. In the days before the internet, my friend brought me round a game to borrow. It had something called Lens Lock protection. You had to hold this plastic lens over this garbled piece of the screen, it would allow you to read the letters and you typed them in to play.

I wasn't that interested in the game, but did find it a challenge to see if I could get the game to run without the lens lock. My friend bet me I couldn't. I fired up my assembler s/w, 3 hours later I had done it. That was like a game to me, I had conquered it. OK I never passed a copy around to anyone. But can I honestly say that if the internet was available, I wouldn't have wanted to brag about cracking it? And of course people would have wanted proof, hence I suspect I would have uploaded it. I imagine many of todays hackers operate in the same way, not so much to pirate stuff, more like they see it as some sort of mental puzzle they want to solve.
Copy protection isn't a real issue in music piracy because it nearly doesn't exist. Most companies have completely discontinued it in most markets because it's either totally ineffective, screws up legitimate playing on some players, or both. Mainly, though, it's because of the simple reason that it's physically impossible to copy protect audio because no matter what you do digitally it's always vulnerable to an analog rip - taking the analog signal from a line, speaker, or headphone output and re-digitizing it, which requires no programming, hacking, or cracking knowledge whatsoever.

As with drunk driving, with piracy we must start with the premise that the crime is physically not preventable.
#51
21st November 2011
Old 21st November 2011
  #51
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA.
Posts: 13,996

John Eppstein is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
As for your other point: You and "the others" are pushing law enforcement as the only thing that is going to make a significant difference. A "silver bullet".
Not really. But it IS the major effective component, the "centerpiece" not the "silver bullet", as well as the one irreplaceable one.

All the other stuff is vastly beneficial and good, but without effective enforcement none of it really is worth a damn.

Like trying to erect a big top without a tent-pole.
#52
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #52
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: london
Posts: 13,334

Karloff70 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

History. Perceptions always change. That's one of the things that the freetards and apologists are always saying, without actually understanding what it means.

"Things are different now, dood! Piracy is the new thing! Things have CHANGED, dawg, just live with it!"

And all that similar twaddle. These people think that things have changed, so now they'll always be that way. Think again, kid. Sure things have changed. What would possibly cause you to think that it's permanent? (answer: youthful naivete. And inexperience). Change is coming - again- and faster than you think.


Indeed, indeed. Always does. Looking forward to it already.
#53
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #53
Lives for gear
 
NEWTON IN ORBIT's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 2,347

NEWTON IN ORBIT is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Shore View Post
I beleive hunger, invasion of suverign countries, enslavement thru financial predatory policies and many more viscious deeds are well accepted and being a norm in 2011. They're actually legalizied. He worries about downloading free songs off the net?! That's your concern? Really?
Yup. And all those musicians that used to make money from their efforts, used to donate to the causes you cite. By stealing from them, you are mostly stealing from individuals with a mind very much like your own.

Get a grip.

Now they no longer can donate and help, because of the greed of people trying to get something for nothing.

Do you really think those illegal downloaders are going help a charity fight hunger and disease? It is clear they do not give ashit about anybody but themselves.

Look deeper my friend...no money being generated, means no money to mobilize efforts to change all these things you list. Music, Films, and software may be a small portion of the econnomy, yet it IS a portion of the economy nonetheless.

john
#54
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #54
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: out in the dirt.
Posts: 15,889

charles maynes is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Artista should have the right to control how their music is presented. When a band like Pink Floyd creates a work like DSOM or THE WALL that work is intended to be listened to IN ITS ENTIRETY, not piecemeal. The artist should have the right to specify that and actually does, legally. However with uncontrolled piracy the artists lost control of how their music is presented and legal music sites were forced to unbundle albums to compete.

This is bad on an artistic level - it's like somebody printing a picture of only the Mona Lisa's right eye and presenting it as a work of Leonardo. It diminishes the artistic value.

It's not a question of economics or business, it's a question of artist and the artist's right to have their work presented in the manner it was conceived.
this is outside the realm of Piracy-

can a band dictate you cant go to the bathroom, or leave the auditorium when they perform? no- because it is false imprisonment. They can deny you re-entry though.

that has nothing to do with theft of the IP John.

As far as unbundling album tracks- I have seen on itunes many albums with songs that were not available for single purchase- only including them in the album.
__________________
Charles Maynes credits
Charles' webpage



“Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are.”
? Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
#55
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #55
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
As far as unbundling album tracks- I have seen on itunes many albums with songs that were not available for single purchase- only including them in the album.
you haven't seen "many" you've seen a "few"...

this is generally, only possible in a few scenarios...

1) the song is over 10 minutes long or is half the length of the album

2) soundtracks comprised of third party licenses (not score albums)

if it's outside of those scenarios I'd like to see them...
#56
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #56
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: out in the dirt.
Posts: 15,889

charles maynes is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
you haven't seen "many" you've seen a "few"...

this is generally, only possible in a few scenarios...

1) the song is over 10 minutes long or is half the length of the album

2) soundtracks comprised of third party licenses (not score albums)

if it's outside of those scenarios I'd like to see them...
on itunes today....

the Cure Hipnagogic States - 4 out of 6 tracks available.

The Cure (2004)

I could go on, but I have work to do- thats just one artist.
#57
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #57
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
on itunes today....

the Cure Hipnagogic States - 4 out of 6 tracks available.

The Cure (2004)

I could go on, but I have work to do- that's just one artist.
oh lord dude... the ONE album only track on the cure album is... yup, you guessed it... over 10 minutes long...

and the other song on Hypnagogic States is over 20 minutes long...

not sure why the other remix that is 4:28 is album only, it's either a third party rights issue or an itunes glitche... which happens...

generally speaking, apple is highly resistant to making songs album only unless they are in the two categories I mentioned...
#58
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #58
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: out in the dirt.
Posts: 15,889

charles maynes is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
oh lord dude... the ONE album only track on the cure album is... yup, you guessed it... over 10 minutes long...

and the other song on Hypnagogic States is over 20 minutes long...

not sure why the other remix that is 4:28 is album only, it's either a third party rights issue or an itunes glitche... which happens...

generally speaking, apple is highly resistant to making songs album only unless they are in the two categories I mentioned...
great- I found one exception in about 5 minutes of searching one artists catalog....


glad you proved your point so convincingly....
#59
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #59
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: the big rack
Posts: 11,248

rack gear is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
great- I found one exception in about 5 minutes of searching one artists catalog....

glad you proved your point so convincingly....
exactly, an exception, hardly the rule, thank you!

the point is that album only is not really possible on itunes, and even the exception you found was a selected single track on an album, not the album itself - which really proved the point John was making.
#60
8th December 2011
Old 8th December 2011
  #60
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: out in the dirt.
Posts: 15,889

charles maynes is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
exactly, an exception, hardly the rule, thank you!
yeah maybe when I have a free few years I can browse the catalogs of the 10000 other artists on itunes to see if they have exceptions as well....
Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.