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29th August 2011
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Google on Copyright Infringement

Some interesting comments on copyright violations by Google's chairman, albeit in a lecture about the UK's education system.

BBC News - Google's Eric Schmidt criticises education in the UK

Quote:
He denied claims by Rupert Murdoch and others that Google was a parasite, taking billions of pounds in advertising without investing in content - saying that last year it shared $6bn worldwide with its publishing partners including newspapers and broadcasters.

He also said Google was a friend, not a foe, of television.

"Trust me - if you gave people at Google free rein to produce TV you'd end up with a lot of bad sci-fi," he said.
So no actual Google content being planned then.

Quote:
He also reassured television bosses over copyright violations, saying Google could take down sites from its search system within four hours if there were problems.
Amazing. No problems?
And the take down actions are so easy, taking just 4 hrs?
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Lack of knowledge about the current digital marketplace and the desire of customers does far more harm.

You need to reread the article and learn something, son.
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Google: the Great Parasite.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Lack of knowledge about the current digital marketplace and the desire of customers does far more harm.

You need to reread the article and learn something, son.
Not a little patronising and is also guessing at what I do and do not know.

I know Google claims there isn't an infringement problem, and they can take down illegal sites within four hours, and yet if I search 'FM8' or 'Kreate' or 'BFD' or 'Decimort' I am swamped with Google search results to torrents, so much so it's actually hard to make out the legal outlets and webpages.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Lack of knowledge about the current digital marketplace and the desire of customers does far more harm.

You need to reread the article and learn something, son.
You need to do a little research on who you're talking to before shooting your mouth off, junior.
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I think i saw (part of*) the same or similar thing here with Shmuck...err.. i mean Sh!t..no, Schmidt.
Was on C-Span.

He talks like he's the best thing since sliced bread. Like "he" [schmit&Google] was the answer for every ailment.

When he got to the "negatives" of his "buisness model", he quickly glossed over that pretty quickly, and didn't even mention the music buisness..

Thing is, these folk are collecting data on every facet of everyone's lives, with plans to go even further into data-mining every device on the street, in your pocket, and in your bedroom... and using that for profit.. and people cheer them on. I don't get it.. People want their 5-minutes of YouTube fame, and they'll give away the farm just to get it.


*couldn't watch it all... after about an hour of his blathering, i was feeling like either vomiting or shooting the TV with a shotgun..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
I think i saw (part of*) the same or similar thing here with Shmuck...err.. i mean Sh!t..no, Schmidt.
Was on C-Span.

He talks like he's the best thing since sliced bread. Like "he" [schmit&Google] was the answer for every ailment.

When he got to the "negatives" of his "buisness model", he quickly glossed over that pretty quickly, and didn't even mention the music buisness..

Thing is, these folk are collecting data on every facet of everyone's lives, with plans to go even further into data-mining every device on the street, in your pocket, and in your bedroom... and using that for profit.. and people cheer them on. I don't get it.. People want their 5-minutes of YouTube fame, and they'll give away the farm just to get it.


*couldn't watch it all... after about an hour of his blathering, i was feeling like either vomiting or shooting the TV with a shotgun..
And at the same time they complain mightily against any laws that protect the rights of copyright holders. Doublethink? Ya think?
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"...Your IT curriculum focuses on teaching how to use software, but gives no insight into how it's made. That is just throwing away your great computing heritage," he said..." Source: BBC News - Google's Eric Schmidt criticises education in the UK

This is one of the elephants in the room. It is almost taboo to press the 'View Page Source' button...the Wizard of Oz indeed. The lack of code awareness is analogous to a greater malaise e.g. food production, electronics, healthcare. Total 'ingenuity gap.'

Whilst Schmidt offers an outsider analysis, it is pertinent and useful. If the people of the UK (and elsewhere) wish to sustain themselves they must find a way to balance consumerism with creativity. They need tools (e.g. education, resources) to do that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
"...Your IT curriculum focuses on teaching how to use software, but gives no insight into how it's made. That is just throwing away your great computing heritage," he said..." Source: BBC News - Google's Eric Schmidt criticises education in the UK

This is one of the elephants in the room. It is almost taboo to press the 'View Page Source' button...the Wizard of Oz indeed. The lack of code awareness is analogous to a greater malaise e.g. food production, electronics, healthcare. Total 'ingenuity gap.'

Whilst Schmidt offers an outsider analysis, it is pertinent and useful. If the people of the UK (and elsewhere) wish to sustain themselves they must find a way to balance consumerism with creativity. They need tools (e.g. education, resources) to do that.
as well as adequate laws with appropriate enforcement...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Lack of knowledge about the current digital marketplace and the desire of customers does far more harm.

You need to reread the article and learn something, son.
educate us then rather than hurling insults...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
as well as adequate laws with appropriate enforcement...
How do you intend to enforce education and resources?
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He's talking about the creativity aspect.
If you don't protect creatives from the takers, you'll lose creative minds completely, or to other disciplines where creativity is rewarded.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
"...Your IT curriculum focuses on teaching how to use software, but gives no insight into how it's made. That is just throwing away your great computing heritage," he said..." Source: BBC News - Google's Eric Schmidt criticises education in the UK

This is one of the elephants in the room. It is almost taboo to press the 'View Page Source' button...the Wizard of Oz indeed. The lack of code awareness is analogous to a greater malaise e.g. food production, electronics, healthcare. Total 'ingenuity gap.'

Whilst Schmidt offers an outsider analysis, it is pertinent and useful. If the people of the UK (and elsewhere) wish to sustain themselves they must find a way to balance consumerism with creativity. They need tools (e.g. education, resources) to do that.
Exactly WHAT does this have to do with the subject of piracy or Google's policy on copyright infringement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
How do you intend to enforce education and resources?
This is getting away from the forum's topic (piracy), but a start for enforcing education (in the USA, dunno if the UK has a similar problem) would be doing away with "home 'schooling'" and abolishing the giving of vouchers for private, non-secular schools that teach superstition as truth.

In other words, provide the entire population with an equal chance to get an adequate, scientifically correct, education.

And stop diverting funding from the public school system.

But this really is NOT the place to discuss it.

Can we get back to discussing piracy/copyright infringement, please?

Staff, please feel free to delete or edit this post if it crosses forum guidelines.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Lack of knowledge about the current digital marketplace and the desire of customers does far more harm.
By which you mean the desire of the average person to get something for nothing?

I've got news for you, kid - if they're not willing to pay they're not "customers", they're freeloaders.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Exactly WHAT does this have to do with the subject of piracy or Google's policy on copyright infringement?
It is ignorance that perpetuates the infringement; similarly, ignorance of the origin and production of life's necessities breeds unsustainable dependency. My point is that the issue isn't confined to copyright infringement; an analysis of the common denominators might lead to a workable solution, one that accounts for human nature.
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The key is to hit and roll.

But no one wants to hear that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
It is ignorance that perpetuates the infringement; similarly, ignorance of the origin and production of life's necessities breeds unsustainable dependency.
Which is why college students are probably the most infringing demographic group in the world?

Really?

PTOOIHGBO!

The reason that people infringe is GREED, pure and simple. And the reason that Google aids and abets this infringement is likewise GREED, pure and simple.

Google likes to put on a front with their "Don't be evil" slogans and posturing, but the reality is that Google is just as amoral and evil as any other large corporation - they do what's best for Google, regardless of how they try to spin it. Sure, they do a lot of things that are great. They also do a lot of things that are vile. Just like every other big tech company.

If ignorance is the root of infringement, does that make Google, as a major facilitator of that infringement, ignorant? HMmm?

Quote:
My point is that the issue isn't confined to copyright infringement; an analysis of the common denominators might lead to a workable solution, one that accounts for human nature.
There is a workable solution and we've had it all along - enforcement of the copyright laws and compulsory compliance with copyright legislation on the part of facilitating companies such as Google (and other search engines) and ISPs.

Coddling infringers and facilitators is counter-productive.

Quote:
one that accounts for human nature.
The facet of "human nature" that is pertinent to the problem is the humans are generally greedy, self-interested animals, and need to be threatened with some sort of dire consequences to do the right thing when doing the right thing conflicts with that self interest.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
It is ignorance that perpetuates the infringement
Basically I don't think it is.
Some people just think it's ok, because 'rock stars' are rich. It's the same level of thinking that allows people to cheat their insurance claims.
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that music that used to cost $10 to $15 an album, which is now free of charge on private, slightly dubious websites, is wrong. They just don't see any consequences, either in punishment to themselves, or negatives for the artists they've stolen from.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
How do you intend to enforce education and resources?
education takes time, and is more likely to be a change in social norms, education may or may not ultimately help. people are stealing, not because they don't know that is wrong, but simply because they can. therefore the key is to make it harder from them to do so, and make the consequences greater when they are caught... just like every other crime and law...

there is this crazy disconnect that if a crime happens online it's not real, which is rubbish, hack a bank account, get caught and I'm sure no one is going to be arguing that "it's just one's and zero's"...

pirating IP isn't much different than pirating currency and we seem to have figured that out...

Why stop at pirating movies? Why not pirate currency?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Basically I don't think it is.
Some people just think it's ok, because 'rock stars' are rich. It's the same level of thinking...
Yes, because they are ignorant or they have an ideological objection to copyright.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Which is why college students are probably the most infringing demographic group in the world?
Yes, I've noted this, and my experiences of it, on several threads - so we're not in disagreement there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
...The reason that people infringe is GREED, pure and simple. And the reason that Google aids and abets this infringement is likewise GREED, pure and simple...
That's not the only reason and until that is more widely acknowledged you won't fix the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Google likes to put on a front with their "Don't be evil" slogans and posturing, but the reality is that Google is just as amoral and evil as any other large corporation - they do what's best for Google, regardless of how they try to spin it. Sure, they do a lot of things that are great. They also do a lot of things that are vile. Just like every other big tech company.
I'm not here to defend Google but they have done some good - I appreciate you are focussed on a sphere of activity that affects you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
If ignorance is the root of infringement, does that make Google, as a major facilitator of that infringement, ignorant? HMmm?
An ignorant corporate entity that needs educating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
There is a workable solution and we've had it all along - enforcement of the copyright laws and compulsory compliance with copyright legislation on the part of facilitating companies such as Google (and other search engines) and ISPs.
Then why make it so easy to infringe? It's human nature to take the easy option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Coddling infringers and facilitators is counter-productive.
I've never suggested that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The facet of "human nature" that is pertinent to the problem is the humans are generally greedy, self-interested animals, and need to be threatened with some sort of dire consequences to do the right thing when doing the right thing conflicts with that self interest.
Yes, in part you are correct, now go design a copyright system that accounts for this and we can all move on.


Do you still think my posts bear no relevance to the OP or do they represent a perspective you'd rather not countenance?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Yes, because they are ignorant or they have an ideological objection to copyright.
No, no, no....
Because they know they wont suffer consequences.
I know people who pirate. They don't fit your description at all.
They want something for nothing and know they wont get caught.
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I'm trying to parallel peoples lack of understanding of the copyright situation (i.e. he's a rich rock star, I'm poor, he doesn't need my money) with the lack of understanding of where food comes from or how appliances work, etc. There is a similarity in all these failures to comprehend causes and effects.
I'm not supporting or condoning copyright infringement; I just think the way to fix the problem is to make it easier to not infringe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I'm trying to parallel peoples lack of understanding of the copyright situation (i.e. he's a rich rock star, I'm poor, he doesn't need my money) with the lack of understanding of where food comes from or how appliances work, etc. There is a similarity in all these failures to comprehend causes and effects.
I'm not supporting or condoning copyright infringement; I just think the way to fix the problem is to make it easier to not infringe.
exactly, better legislation and enforcement.

people already know it wrong and it's stealing, they just don't care because there are no consequences for doing so... all the other banter is just rationalization to stave off the cognitive dissonance of knowing it's wrong.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
exactly, better legislation and enforcement.

people already know it wrong and it's stealing, they just don't care because there are no consequences for doing so... all the other banter is just rationalization to stave off the cognitive dissonance of knowing it's wrong.
Re: 'people already know it wrong and it's stealing' yeah sure...in general many or most people would agree, but IMO many of the infringers/thieves would know that it's stealing but not think it wrong...that's the crunch...many people have developed a separate set of ethics on copyright/ownership and they know it's stealing but they think it's right. This sense of 'rightness' is compounded by the ease of infringement and difficulty of legitimacy.
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Quote:
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Re: 'people already know it wrong and it's stealing' yeah sure...in general many or most people would agree, but IMO many of the infringers/thiefs would know that it's stealing but not think it wrong...that's the crunch...many people have developed a separate set of ethics on copyright/ownership and they know it's stealing but they think it's right. This sense of 'rightness' is compounded by the ease of infringement and difficulty of legitimacy.
have better legislation and enforcement and there will be no confusion, I promise... people also might not think that speeding is a "real crime" but when they get a ticket, they have to pay it or face the consequences.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
have better legislation and enforcement and there will be no confusion, I promise...
Well that's obviously a decision beyond my influence...I'm not directly affected by copyright infringement, and it's up to the parties concerned, although ideally from my perspective the less bureaucracy the better.

The problem I see as an outsider looking from a distance is a/ the legislation may impede innocent peoples right to a free and private life resulting in greater contempt for legislation (and a backlash) and b/ the legislation hasn't worked yet...why assume new legislation will make any difference?
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Quote:
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... people also might not think that speeding is a "real crime" but when they get a ticket, they have to pay it or face the consequences.
Yes, if and when they get caught. Most people speed. If I retrieved statistics for journeys taken against prosecutions we'd find a really low detection rate; so whilst I agree with your sentiments there may be a better analogy.

Now perhaps if manufacturers made cars that couldn't exceed the speed limit that would be more practical than having roads that prevented a car from exceeding the speed limit.
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Well that's obviously a decision beyond my influence...I'm not directly affected by copyright infringement, and it's up to the parties concerned, although ideally from my perspective the less bureaucracy the better.

The problem I see as an outsider looking from a distance is a/ the legislation may impede innocent peoples right to a free and private life resulting in greater contempt for legislation (and a backlash) and b/ the legislation hasn't worked yet...why assume new legislation will make any difference?
because the existing legislation dates back to 1998... the law needs to be relevant to the times.

maybe these two threads will give you a better understanding.

10,000 DMCA Takedown Notices Later...

Piracy Is Personal - Tell Your Story Here
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Quote:
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because the existing legislation dates back to 1998... the law needs to be relevant to the times.

maybe these two threads will give you a better understanding.

10,000 DMCA Takedown Notices Later...

Piracy Is Personal - Tell Your Story Here
I guess I'll have to wait an see before forming any definitive opinions about the success of these measures. I maintain that the most effective way to prevent copyright infringement (and increase revenue) is to make legitimacy the easy option rather than creating an environment where infringement is viable. IMO piracy will subside when the perpetrators see it as dishonourable/embarassing rather than due to a law for which they have no respect.
Thanks for the links : )
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