Buying music.

[John Eppstein]

I spent over $200 on CDs yesterday.

What have you done recently?

[chrisso]

I'm spending about $10 a week on downloads.

[Don Hills]

I'm sure the relevance of this to copyright infringement will become clear shortly.

How many CDs did this $200 represent? How many of them were purchased "unheard"?

My Beatles box set arrived from Amazon today. NZ$225 (US$186) including shipping. I usually try to buy locally but prices ranged from NZ$350 to NZ$380.
I've bought 3 CDs in the last 30 days. NZ$34, NZ$21, NZ$13 = US$56. Two of those were bought as a result of having heard them online, the other I took a punt on because I like the band's other releases.

[oldeanalogueguy]

i took a nap and then listened to my old bach brandenburg concertos while i paid the bills

[chrisso]

[John Eppstein]

"

Originally Posted by Don Hills

I'm sure the relevance of this to copyright infringement will become clear shortly.

How many CDs did this $200 represent? How many of them were purchased "unheard"?

My Beatles box set arrived from Amazon today. NZ$225 (US$186) including shipping. I usually try to buy locally but prices ranged from NZ$350 to NZ$380.
I've bought 3 CDs in the last 30 days. NZ$34, NZ$21, NZ$13 = US$56. Two of those were bought as a result of having heard them online, the other I took a punt on because I like the band's other releases.

Around 30 CDs purchased at the Border's bankruptcy sale. Since artists are paid by the number of units shipped I'm sure all pertinent royalties will be paid. Acts involved were mostly older, everything from Porter Waggoner, Charlie Louvin, and Mel Tillis to Robert Johnson, Magic Sam, and Keb Mo' to Motorhead, Social Distortion, and BOC. There were a number of artists that I couldn't find - the store's stock of older country and blues artists in particular was not what it might have been, and I wasn't really interested in the "Nashville pop" that they had way too much of. Or the commercial rap and Disney pop, either. As a matter of fact I found the overall skewing of the selection to be depressing - what happens when you let focus groups decide your ordering and stocking instead of consumer demand, a problem they also had with their book selection. It's little wonder to me that the chain went out of business - you don't last long when you don't listen to your customers.

I'm hoping that this will increase business at the remaining local record shops and that the demise of the book supermarkets will open opportunities for local bookstores to come back.......

As far as "purchased unheard" it depends what you mean. NONE of the artists were purchased unheard, but many of the specific records were. For example I bought a Keith Richards solo album I've never heard of on the basic assumption that anything Keith does I'm gonna like at least enough to buy the disk. Same thing for Magic Sam.

A number of them were replacements for records I've lost over the years, like The Who's "Live at Leeds", The Byrds Greatest Hits, and The Band's "Last Waltz".

What does this have to do with copyright infringement? Well, it bears somewhat on the question of downloading replacements for stuff you don't have anymore, for one thing.......

BTW, have you guys seen the "I Buy Music" site? If you haven't, check it out:

http://www.ibuymusic.net/

[chrisso]

I buy stuff unheard all the time, but as a full time musician I see it as part of my job to discover new stuff.
If there's an easy way to demo - like an iTunes or Amazon audition, I'll sometimes take it.

[tvsky]

i don't remember last time I bought a cd or anything.

I just listen to everything on you tube for free .

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by tvsky

i don't remember last time I bought a cd or anything.

Why am I not surprised?

I just listen to everything on you tube for free .

You do realize that there's a lot of stuff that isn't on Youtube?
And that not only is the audio quality wildly uneven, but even the best isn't very good?

But no, I didn't expect that you would be the type of person to support artists.

Of course that means YOU HAVE NO RIGHT AT ALL TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE QUALITY OF MUSIC.

You get what you pay for.

[jackaleks]

Originally Posted by tvsky

i don't remember last time I bought a cd or anything.

I just listen to everything on you tube for free .

lmao, trolled?

but yeah, i decided to give soundcloud a break and spent £40/$65 on cds this week. they're currently sitting on my shelf unlistened to because i'm too lazy to copy them to my Mac

[AwwDeOhh]

Though i have bought several things from iTunes and other digital outlets, i do the majority of my music shopping by buying actual CD's.
Most of the time, i've only ever heard one track by the artist and bought the CD mostly unheard (i have to hear at least one, or been recommend by someone i trusts' music taste, i don't buy based on cover art after all, lol)

If i like an artist/group, i'll usually buy their CD when i find they've released a new one. I've bought the exact same CD more than one time (on several occasions), too

[Don Hills]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Around 30 CDs purchased at the Border's bankruptcy sale.

Borders here are still trading, but went out of CDs and then DVDs some months ago. Their CD range was pretty decent when they first opened, but they never bothered replenishing / refreshing the non-mainstream items.

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

As far as "purchased unheard" it depends what you mean. NONE of the artists were purchased unheard, but many of the specific records were.

I meant "never heard any of their music". I don't do that, though I do purchase "unheard" albums by artists that I know and like.

[chrisso]

I do buy 'never heard any of their music' from time to time.

Borders closed here a few months ago.
The main remaining retailer (JB Hi-Fi) has reported consistently good sales, despite the consumer abandoning the high street.
They sell all kinds of electronic entertainment though.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

I spent over $200 on CDs yesterday.

What have you done recently?

I get the bulk of my CDs as promotional copies, in addition to that I probably spend at least $300 a month on itunes, and I'd say 2-3 times a year (usually when I'm in Austin) I buy $200-$300 in CDs of used local stuff tex/mex and southern gulf coast surf punk.

recent faves:
- lanterna
- startle the heavens
- the candlepark stars

I'm also a sucker for the current pop hits... I usually buy the itunes top 40 songs once every 2-3 months.

[chrisso]

Virtually all my spending power is going to 'one man band' artists (electronica) or very small bands, and in both categories either self releasing or on tiny independents.

[AwwDeOhh]

On occasion i'll drop by the local music store, and buy a local band's CD or two. (unheard)
it's not always a happy ending, but the thrill of the unknown is worth the price of admission... and i don't mind supporting locals.
(heck, by some of the drek i've gotten... it's probably their only sale lol... but sometimes i find a gem. Allows me to follow up and see if there's anything we can do for eachother at the very least)

But that's not the majority of my purchases, by a long shot.

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Why am I not surprised?

I don't know . you fancy yourself as some sort of internet psychic now?

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

You do realize that there's a lot of stuff that isn't on Youtube?
And that not only is the audio quality wildly uneven, but even the best isn't very good?

the quality is terrible , but its good enough . better than AM radio oldies like yourself listened to and you guys got down and rocked around the clock ok . quality isnt everything especially for casual listening. also a big chunk of my regular listening is pre 1950s jazz , blues and ragtime and quality of the source recordings isnt great either. the next biggest thing is guys at home improvising in their studios and there is no other medium for this stuff besides you tube . last time I checked the major studios were not interested in handycam footage of a nerd in his bedroom studio.

this argument about quality always reminds me of the scene in the movie boogie nights where the porno guys discuss the transition from film to VHS and the progressive porno guy says "the quality doesn't have to be great" and look where that industry has ended up . the general population doesn't care about quality . good enough is good enough.

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

But no, I didn't expect that you would be the type of person to support artists.

I dont see why I should be compelled to purchase a product I don't want just to support an artist . surely that is for the artists fans. your internet psychic powers must be acting up again . remember you never know someone from words typed on a computer screen , if I made assumptions on you by your posts you would be some completely senile escaped nursing home shut in mentally trapped in the past trying to relive some golden age of the music industry long since gone that will never ever return no matter and cursing the modern world that has destroyed it. but im sure in real life your a relatively normal old guy .

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Of course that means YOU HAVE NO RIGHT AT ALL TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE QUALITY OF MUSIC.

I dont , its pure personal taste. if people want to listen to lady gaga and glee soundtracks I hope they enjoy it . I have never thought any music was better than any other just what personally resonates . I will admit I am growing tired of the never ending loudness wars and ITB production techniques the way especially mainstream music is produced , but thats a complaint about how the music is made , not the quality of music. I do think theres a lot of people though who feel there is a decline in the artistic effort and quality of mainstream modern music and that could be contributing to sales losses if there is enough of them . I do not agree , the music genres they are referring to has always been low on artistic effort . I don't know why everyone is complain about it now

I should clarify this :

I have bought a couple of music DVD/BR recently. For me the big problem is format , I have no interest in CDs from the 1980s as a clearly obsolete format and would NEVER EVER pay money for mp3's , ie nothing but 1s and 0s in the ether . I am a little more comfortable investing in the video formats , especially as they give more content , like video . If we get to some sort of good sales and distribution medium like has been discussed with something similar to steam and I feel my digital purchase investments are actually protected I might reconsider this anti digital file stance

I listen to and support LOTS of unsigned , independent and minor artists on a stack of online mediums like soundcloud etc including youtube.

I get sent a LOT of promo material

I thought you would be happy john , I can honestly say I DO NOT DOWNLOAD PIRATE MUSIC . lots on this forum cant say that .

[sentinel7]

I spent $40 buying two Black Sabbath deluxe editions this year. I don't buy any releases that are affected by the loudness war. I'm not supporting that crap.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by tvsky

I dont see why I should be compelled to purchase a product I don't want just to support an artist . surely that is for the artists fans.

But evidently you DO want the product - or you wouldn't be listening to it on Youtube.

Nobody said you should buy anything you don't want to listen to. But if you listen to a song more than a few times you should make an effort to buy the record and support the artist.

That's what we did back in the AM radio days you likened your Youtube listening to.

I should clarify this :

I have bought a couple of music DVD/BR recently.

Ah, so you DO actually buy music! That's not what you said before.

For me the big problem is format , I have no interest in CDs from the 1980s as a clearly obsolete format and would NEVER EVER pay money for mp3's , ie nothing but 1s and 0s in the ether . I am a little more comfortable investing in the video formats , especially as they give more content , like video . If we get to some sort of good sales and distribution medium like has been discussed with something similar to steam and I feel my digital purchase investments are actually protected I might reconsider this anti digital file stance

IMO that's an excuse. If an album is only available in CD I buy the CD. In fact I buy mostly CDs and some vinyl. I'd much rather listen to a CD than an MP3, downloaded or on Youtube. CDs aren't as good as vinyl but they're a lot more convenient and the available selection is better. I don't have the hardware to play Blu-ray and the quality of my (and most) DVD playback hardware is such as to make the quality issues moot IMO - what's the point of higher quality media if the player is mediocre crap? And in fact most of the audio circuits in even expensive DVD players are just that. I've heard of cases where DVD players with price tags hundreds of dollars apart contained EXACTLY THE SAME cheap-ass OEM circuit boards.

I listen to and support LOTS of unsigned , independent and minor artists on a stack of online mediums like soundcloud etc including youtube.

I get sent a LOT of promo material

That's interesting...... I don't receive much promo material at all but I get into most of the shows I attend for free. When I'm there I'll frequently buy one or more CDs. In fact that's one of the ways I get new music - by buying the CDs of the opening acts.

[Don Hills]

Relevant:

Why I Already Miss Books: A Lament for Physical Media - TIME

[AwwDeOhh]

Originally Posted by tvsky

I have bought a couple of music DVD/BR recently. For me the big problem is format , I have no interest in CDs from the 1980s as a clearly obsolete format and would NEVER EVER pay money for mp3's , ie nothing but 1s and 0s in the ether . I am a little more comfortable investing in the video formats , especially as they give more content , like video . If we get to some sort of good sales and distribution medium like has been discussed with something similar to steam and I feel my digital purchase investments are actually protected I might reconsider this anti digital file stance

You don't pay money for "1's and 0's"
yet, you buy DVD/BR?
What exactly do you think is stored on those disks! 1's and 0's.
lol
not that i'm berating for buying something. Just pointing out contradictions.
"video format" is nothing but 1's and 0's.
It's not a magic picture disk.

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

But evidently you DO want the product - or you wouldn't be listening to it on Youtube.

Nobody said you should buy anything you don't want to listen to. But if you listen to a song more than a few times you should make an effort to buy the record and support the artist.

That's what we did back in the AM radio days you likened your Youtube listening to.

True but AM radio wasn't instantly available pretty much anywhere on demand. To be honest most of the "traditional" content I listen to on youtube is stuff I already own . I queued up a dozen or so REM songs last night to listen to in the background . Im not dragging my old REM cds out of storage! YT is there , free , convenient . If the artists don't want to use it then don't.

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Ah, so you DO actually buy music! That's not what you said before.

yeah I had to think about it for a while though , thats why I clarified it!

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

IMO that's an excuse. If an album is only available in CD I buy the CD. In fact I buy mostly CDs and some vinyl. I'd much rather listen to a CD than an MP3, downloaded or on Youtube. CDs aren't as good as vinyl but they're a lot more convenient and the available selection is better. I don't have the hardware to play Blu-ray and the quality of my (and most) DVD playback hardware is such as to make the quality issues moot IMO - what's the point of higher quality media if the player is mediocre crap? And in fact most of the audio circuits in even expensive DVD players are just that. I've heard of cases where DVD players with price tags hundreds of dollars apart contained EXACTLY THE SAME cheap-ass OEM circuit boards.

I am not expecting stellar audio quality when I say buy a live concert DVD . Good quality audio but not awesome , I understand that the audio content is compressed heavily (in the case of 5.1 dvd audio not DTS) but the trade off is extra content like video . And you are correct most modern dvd/BD have bad audio quality hardware , my old 90s denon mid range cd player shits on a cheap dvd. But I am over the audiophile days anyway , my tastes have just changed .

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

That's interesting...... I don't receive much promo material at all but I get into most of the shows I attend for free. When I'm there I'll frequently buy one or more CDs. In fact that's one of the ways I get new music - by buying the CDs of the opening acts.

Promo distribution is especially prevalent in the electronic music world . most of the exposure artists get is from dj's playing their work , you don't have to be big time , even as a low level artist you will get a lot of material given to you. The only problem is you only get promo material that is the same as what you produce or dj which is a little limited.

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh

You don't pay money for "1's and 0's"
yet, you buy DVD/BR?
What exactly do you think is stored on those disks! 1's and 0's.
lol
not that i'm berating for buying something. Just pointing out contradictions.
"video format" is nothing but 1's and 0's.
It's not a magic picture disk.

read my comment , I said I feel more comfortable supporting a more modern format like BR as opposed to the compact disc format from 1982 which is clearly becoming rapidly obsolete . I am aware that yes they are both digital formats.

its just about protecting my investment . while the BR format remains valid my investment has value. when it doesn't its as worthless as other dead formats like minidisc , compact cassette , 8 track etc. I made a decision quite a while ago to stop investing in compact disc , which is near its end of life.

if the industry can come up with a new format or even a way to protect my digital only investment ill have another look at it . But I am not spending my cash on i tunes when I can't even transfer that content to someone . Thats a terrible investment! especially when that same content is given away for free all over the net (legitimately by the content owners) further devaluing my investment.

Todays 1.99 itunes download is tomorrows given away on the artists website for free. You can see why there is an increase in special editions and box sets and vinyl , people are looking for anything tangible to protect the value of their purchases . I have lots of vinyl that's worth $100s+ in my collection even if the content itself is virtually worthless and freely available from lots of sources.

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by Don Hills

Relevant:

Why I Already Miss Books: A Lament for Physical Media - TIME

when I first came to this forum I suggested that the lack of viable new physical media was hurting sales of music and I was hammered by the usual suspects saying no its all piracy and even suggesting otherwise is siding with the pirates .

obviously the biggest problem is piracy , but the music industry does so many other things wrong or poorly , if we got all of them right it would generate more sales. It wouldn't topple piracy , but it would provide extra revenue in a time when all revenue is precious .

there is definitively a growing tide of people who are not happy with the options currently available to them and unhappy consumers equal an untapped market

[chrisso]

If I've hammered anyone it's because the argument over the delivery medium is a bogus one. You are paying for music, music is the product.
Regarding the Time article, it's somewhat ironic.
People get what they want and what they deserve.
The majority of people want digital media. This idea that music has gone off CD and onto mp3 against the customers wishes is 100% bogus.
Another bogus comment that keeps getting trotted out here is that the music industry is one entity, getting things 'wrong' as a single business might.
No, there are labels that only make and sell vinyl. There are labels that only make and sell mp3's. If you feel you aren't catered for, it's because there is no income in catering for you..... just like every other consumer product on the shelf. Not enough sales to support the format, the format dies.

[Barfunkel]

I buy about 10 vinyl records a month. Used to buy more but I don't make as much money as I used to.

[MACH4]

Just stole music.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh

You don't pay money for "1's and 0's"
yet, you buy DVD/BR?
What exactly do you think is stored on those disks! 1's and 0's.
lol
not that i'm berating for buying something. Just pointing out contradictions.
"video format" is nothing but 1's and 0's.
It's not a magic picture disk.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by tvsky

when I first came to this forum I suggested that the lack of viable new physical media was hurting sales of music and I was hammered by the usual suspects saying no its all piracy and even suggesting otherwise is siding with the pirates .

obviously the biggest problem is piracy , but the music industry does so many other things wrong or poorly , if we got all of them right it would generate more sales. It wouldn't topple piracy , but it would provide extra revenue in a time when all revenue is precious .

there is definitively a growing tide of people who are not happy with the options currently available to them and unhappy consumers equal an untapped market

what I find most ironic is that it is the vocal minority that appears to both miss physical formats yet justify stealing digital formats

it also should be noted that the industry did not seek to move from physical product to digital product, but rather consumers stopped buying physical product, opting instead for piracy en mass.

tell you what, if more people started buying CDs again, the industry would have no problem keeping up with the demand, truth is, that demand is just not there.

[tvsky]

Originally Posted by chrisso

If I've hammered anyone it's because the argument over the delivery medium is a bogus one. You are paying for music, music is the product.
Regarding the Time article, it's somewhat ironic.
People get what they want and what they deserve.
The majority of people want digital media. This idea that music has gone off CD and onto mp3 against the customers wishes is 100% bogus.
Another bogus comment that keeps getting trotted out here is that the music industry is one entity, getting things 'wrong' as a single business might.
No, there are labels that only make and sell vinyl. There are labels that only make and sell mp3's. If you feel you aren't catered for, it's because there is no income in catering for you..... just like every other consumer product on the shelf. Not enough sales to support the format, the format dies.

Currently the consumer has no choice on format for music . If he wants a physical product he has 29 year old Compact disc audio. He has a couple of extremely obscure niche formats but they are so poorly supported its not really much of a choice. No one is claiming that music went to mp3 against the consumers wishes , the point is to capture the consumer who does not wan't mp3 but a physical product.

Strangely the film and video industry manage to transition from VHS to DVD and then to blue ray and that is not a single business but an industry . The music industry has totally failed to transition from CD.

As for MP3 , please read the other posts of what a real independent industry wide standard distribution and sales platform could be like to see what consumers might wan't who do not want to support apple or the mish mash of half assed half baked other sites and providers we currently have.