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New Zealand anti-piracy law passes in a landslide
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#61
9th May 2011
Old 9th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulstudios View Post
What it means first and foremost is that ISP's bear a relational responsibility, albeit mediated by a third party, for their customer's content. Once the record companie's NZ divisions start detecting and tracking IPs for music torrents, things will close up pretty fast. As others have stated, this is not about stopping the hard core tech's, it's about making life difficult for the 'standard' pirate who has no tech skills, and believe me, that is the vast majority of them here in NZ. Once the ISP's start having to serve enough of these infringement notices, they will start to capitulate with the general idea of their customers not downloading illegally - of course, the initial push has to come from the representatives of the copyright holders, but that's just par for the course - that's exactly where the push has been coming from all along.
It has great potential to create change here in NZ. Whether that potential is realised comes down to the copyright holders.
Hardly. They will simply have a couple of people that look over the requests and forward them. The ISPs have no culpability so they don't really give a crap. In the end, it won't work and it will cost more money than it makes. Oh, the focus is still on uploading not downloading and there is a difference.
#62
9th May 2011
Old 9th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
...
In the end, I'm for respecting copyright law as it stands on the books, and I'm for musician's work and wishes for that work being respected. Nothing more, nothing less.
How this can be described as 'extreme' by Don Hills is beyond me. ...
It's not what you stand for, it's how you stand for it. You and John are (perceived as) hard line, uncompromising, totally rejecting other people's views. In other words, you have an extreme bias towards copyright enforcement. Thats OK. There are participants with equally extreme bias towards "music should be free". Then there are the centrists who see merits and drawbacks with both positions.
#63
9th May 2011
Old 9th May 2011
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Gentlemen, please... let's keep this thread civil.
I know I didn't open it, but I'd like to use it to document the progress and consequences of the law that the thread was opened to discuss. I intend to post pointers to news items and discussions about the bill, both for and against. So if you have an interest in seeing how it plays out, please refrain from actions likely to get the thread closed.
#64
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neenja View Post
Then ignore him or demonstrate that he is incorrect. Why is that so hard to do?
He confirmed my point for me (which was never an 'attack'). He admitted he was biased, biased towards an IT view.
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#65
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
It's not what you stand for, it's how you stand for it. You and John are (perceived as) hard line, uncompromising, totally rejecting other people's views. In other words, you have an extreme bias towards copyright enforcement.
I'm for musicians and for the laws that have been hard won to help protect musicians.
I find it amazing that is perceived as extreme.
Governments are actually tightening these laws. Are they being more extreme?
If the laws are changed to suit your needs more, I'll back those laws 100%. I'm for law abiding music consumers after all.
I'm happy to look at any proposals that modify the current status quo, but it's understandable I'd be reluctant for creative people to lose some of their rights, which they fought for decades to win.
To support the current legal rights is never an 'extreme' position!
It's understandable and normal that my position would conflict with your position. You are primarily a music consumer, not a producer, and also biased towards the IT sector. Creative musician's livelihoods are under attack from the IT sector and from music consumers (illegally downloading). So if you're arguing from that point of view it's likely I'll be disagreeing with you more often than not.
#66
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein
...
Companies use the "bottom line" as an excuse for all manner of misbehavior, legal and not. It's bad for business in the long term (Maximizing short term profits at the expense of overall growth and company health) and bad for society in general (the irresponsibility we're discussing here).
Of course they do.
But that's no reason to condone it. And certainly not a reason to deride attempts to resist or criticize it.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein
Really, Don, I expected better from you.
That personal attack was unwarranted. I may describe the behaviour of businesses / corporations / companies, but that in no way means I agree with that behaviour or practise it myself. I've tried to keep my opinion out of it, but I did express it back in post 50.
It was not intended as an attack. It was meant as a comment on you apparently condoning and supporting reprehensible behavior by your industry.
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#67
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I repeat, and I'll keep doing so until you can produce a law saying otherwise, copyright infringement is not theft.
By the definition of your NZ law, then so-called "theft of services" is not actually theft either. You have not addressed this.

Quote:
Watch dogs with too many teeth are as bad as those with too few. People are justifiably wary of them. A real world example is pit bulls.
The do tend to be effective.

Quote:
If it was theft, it would be a criminal offence and would be prosecuted as such. It isn't, so it isn't. Wishing won't make it so. It'll need a law change.
Actually it IS a criminal offense. In this country the FBI used to do regular busts of pirate BBSes and websites and the operators of the sites would frequently draw jail time. It's only since the gutting of the FBI cyber crime squad due to the increased focus on terrorism (or should I say the "refocusing" of that squad) that these criminal prosecutions have lapsed.

Quote:
It's the same the world over. Now think about what the Terms Of Service are for, from the ISP's point of view. They allow the ISP to sanction a subscriber who violates the TOS. It does not require them to do so. The TOS are a contract, not a law.
Nitpicking. The TOS indicates that the ISPs recognize that certain activity is illegal and that they have a responsibility to discourage and attempt to eliminate such activity.
#68
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm for musicians and for the laws that have been hard won to help protect musicians.
I find it amazing that is perceived as extreme.
"It's not what you say, it's the way that you say it."
#69
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Can we desist from the racially charged commentary?
The word "niggardly" is of Middle English (maybe Scandinavian) origin. It has no connection with African-American slang terms.
#70
10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
By the definition of your NZ law, then so-called "theft of services" is not actually theft either. You have not addressed this.
I assume you mean the copyright enforcement law under discussion. If so, it doesn't cover "theft of service".

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Actually it IS a criminal offense. In this country the FBI used to do regular busts of pirate BBSes and websites and the operators of the sites would frequently draw jail time. It's only since the gutting of the FBI cyber crime squad due to the increased focus on terrorism (or should I say the "refocusing" of that squad) that these criminal prosecutions have lapsed.
And what - exactly - was being offered for download by those sites? It wasn't music...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Nitpicking. The TOS indicates that the ISPs recognize that certain activity is illegal and that they have a responsibility to discourage and attempt to eliminate such activity.
The TOS indicates no such thing. It merely specifies as broad a range of activities as possible that the ISP may, at their discretion, discontinue a subscriber's service for engaging in. In short, CYA. It's rather like the warranties for appliances that basically say that once you take it out of its box, the warranty is void...
#71
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
...
It was not intended as an attack. It was meant as a comment on you apparently condoning and supporting reprehensible behavior by your industry.
Appearances can be deceiving. I've simply been pointing out some areas where what you would like the world to be like, and how the world actually is, differ. I believe the term is "playing the devil's advocate". Hopefully this questioning of assumptions will lead to a better informed consensus, or at least to an understanding of irreconcilable differences.
#72
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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... I should emphasise that I appreciate that the above process works both ways.
#73
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
The word "niggardly" is of Middle English (maybe Scandinavian) origin. It has no connection with African-American slang terms.
While technically and grammatically correct. Still If one is soliciting civility, perhaps
not a good choice of terms,

From the Dictionary:
niggard |ˈnigərd|
noun often offensive
a stingy or ungenerous person.
adjective often offensive
archaic term for niggardly .
ORIGIN late Middle English : alteration of earlier nigon.
USAGE This word, along with its adverbial form niggardly, should be used with caution. Owing to the sound similarity to the highly inflammatory racial epithet nigger, these words can cause unnecessary confusion and unintentional offense. ................... nuff said hey ?.


On the other hand and back to some of the content of this thread

While I believe that it is true that in the US copyright infringement still falls under the area of Tort law, usually with civil remedy and not criminal , It should be noted though that there are areas of Tort Law which can incur both civil and criminal remedy. These generally have to do with involving "egregious Intent to do harm"

And this is I think where this debate develops..
Because many who create music, view illegal downloading and or the intentional facilitation of illegal downloading as falling under the purview of " egregious intent to do harm" while others see the individual downloader ( with the everybody does it mentality) , and the ISP as unintentional perpetrators or facilitators of infringement.
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#74
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
It's not what you stand for, it's how you stand for it. You and John are (perceived as) hard line, uncompromising, totally rejecting other people's views. In other words, you have an extreme bias towards copyright enforcement. Thats OK. There are participants with equally extreme bias towards "music should be free". Then there are the centrists who see merits and drawbacks with both positions.
You know, it's funny - not too long ago a lot of people involved in this issue regarded me as being rather soft on piracy for a person involved in the industry. However over the intervening time I've been pushed farther and farther into a "hard line" position by the unrelenting selfishness, greed, and stupidity of the people on the pro-pirate and pro-IT industry sides. If you don't believe that, ask Dean Roddey about my attitudes when I first joined this forum.

It's your (in aggregate, not personally) own attitudes and arguments that have caused me to believe as I now do - the only logical position.
#75
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
The word "niggardly" is of Middle English (maybe Scandinavian) origin. It has no connection with African-American slang terms.
I'm aware of what the etymology is purported to be by some (not all) scholars. Whether is is correct or not is beside the point. The point is that it is widely viewed as a racial slur, especially in the United States.

The word "miserly" has much the same meaning, without the potential racial overtones.
#76
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'm aware of what the etymology is purported to be by some (not all) scholars. Whether is is correct or not is beside the point. The point is that it is widely viewed as a racial slur, especially in the United States.
Which is untrue. Yes, there are a few uneducated and hypersensitive people that will get worked up over anything, but we can't do anything to please them anyway.
#77
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein
By the definition of your NZ law, then so-called "theft of services" is not actually theft either. You have not addressed this.
I assume you mean the copyright enforcement law under discussion. If so, it doesn't cover "theft of service".

I'm referring to the quotation you posted that defined "theft" as being specific only to physical goods. I don't seem to be able to finf the post righht now, perhaps it was in the recently deleted thread, not this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein
Actually it IS a criminal offense. In this country the FBI used to do regular busts of pirate BBSes and websites and the operators of the sites would frequently draw jail time. It's only since the gutting of the FBI cyber crime squad due to the increased focus on terrorism (or should I say the "refocusing" of that squad) that these criminal prosecutions have lapsed.
And what - exactly - was being offered for download by those sites? It wasn't music...
It was primarily software, a few movies, some music, some text documents. There was relatively little movie and music content because of the size of the files and the primitive tools for dealing with such material, but there definitely was some.

Are you suggesting that software piracy would be of greater interest to the FBI than music piracy? It's all copyright infringement.
#78
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Appearances can be deceiving. I've simply been pointing out some areas where what you would like the world to be like, and how the world actually is, differ. I believe the term is "playing the devil's advocate". Hopefully this questioning of assumptions will lead to a better informed consensus, or at least to an understanding of irreconcilable differences.
OK.

You do have to understand, however, that when one plays devil's advocate one may be regarded as the devil.....
#79
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I've simply been pointing out some areas where what you would like the world to be like, and how the world actually is, differ. I believe the term is "playing the devil's advocate". Hopefully this questioning of assumptions will lead to a better informed consensus, or at least to an understanding of irreconcilable differences.
At the moment real world legislation backs musicians.
As a supporter of that reality I'm hardly 'extreme'.
In fact record labels and musicians are taking Australian broadcasters to court today over copyright.
Copyright battle set for High Court
#80
10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'm aware of what the etymology is purported to be by some (not all) scholars. Whether is is correct or not is beside the point. The point is that it is widely viewed as a racial slur, especially in the United States.

The word "miserly" has much the same meaning, without the potential racial overtones.
No offence was intended. It's a word I was taught at school and have used all my life. It reminds me of floppy disks... Most people are familiar with the term "floppy disk" to refer to 8 inch and 5.25 inch diskettes. The 3.5 inch hard cased diskette is also called a "floppy disk" in most countries. But in South Africa I was amused to find that they call them, with no hint of double entendre, "stiffies".
#81
10th May 2011
Old 10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
...
Are you suggesting that software piracy would be of greater interest to the FBI than music piracy? It's all copyright infringement.
From the evidence, yes. Squeaky wheels...
#82
10th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
...
In fact record labels and musicians are taking Australian broadcasters to court today over copyright.
Copyright battle set for High Court
One the one side, copyright holders saying they aren't being paid enough. On the other side, the Government saying the copyright holders have never had it so good. Keep us posted...
#83
10th May 2011
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Yes.
#84
14th May 2011
Old 14th May 2011
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#85
29th May 2011
Old 29th May 2011
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Some more opinions from the last 2 weeks:

How about giving people what they want?
(Simple ways to increase sales and reduce copyright infringement)
How about giving people what they want? :: NZCS Newsline

Tough year ahead for New Zealand ISPs:
(Changes to business models due to the evolution of the Internet)
Tough year ahead for New Zealand ISPs :: NZCS Newsline

It's the law
("Imagine if we were to introduce a law that criminalises a very common act. Next, imagine if we said that (...) you're guilty upon accusation. Not content with that, we then make it perfectly legal for the accuser to hand in false claims and allegations.

How could we make that law better? Easy: by making it impossible for you to challenge or to defend yourself against the accusations. ")
It's the law :: NZCS Newsline


Copyright Regulations and a couple of updates
(Comments on ISP liabilities, penalties for infringement etc)
Copyright Regulations and a couple of updates :: NZCS Newsline
#86
29th May 2011
Old 29th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Some more opinions from the last 2 weeks:

How about giving people what they want?
(Simple ways to increase sales and reduce copyright infringement)
How about giving people what they want? :: NZCS Newsline

Tough year ahead for New Zealand ISPs:
(Changes to business models due to the evolution of the Internet)
Tough year ahead for New Zealand ISPs :: NZCS Newsline

It's the law
("Imagine if we were to introduce a law that criminalises a very common act. Next, imagine if we said that (...) you're guilty upon accusation. Not content with that, we then make it perfectly legal for the accuser to hand in false claims and allegations.

How could we make that law better? Easy: by making it impossible for you to challenge or to defend yourself against the accusations. ")
It's the law :: NZCS Newsline


Copyright Regulations and a couple of updates
(Comments on ISP liabilities, penalties for infringement etc)
Copyright Regulations and a couple of updates :: NZCS Newsline

In one short paragraph from the second article they make it cleaqr that the NZCS is a staunchly pro-piracy organization.

Quote:
All of these challenges are likely to in some way cause conflict with the underlying principles of the Internet, namely those that say that things are open and freely available, that people can access and use the works of others with the minimum of external control.
That says it all.

Actually the mind boggles a bit - for a country's main association of computing professionals to state publicly that they are in favor of IP theft and against the rule of law that has governed society for hundreds of years, well........

We all Knew that this was the essential stance of the tech industry (except when it comes to the matter of their own patents and then you'd better not touch) but to have a major organization actually say it in print........ Wow. Just Wow.......
#87
30th May 2011
Old 30th May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
In one short paragraph from the second article they make it cleaqr that the NZCS is a staunchly pro-piracy organization.
...
Let me fix that for you by quoting less selectively than you did:

Quote:
.. All of these challenges are likely to in some way cause conflict with the underlying principles of the Internet, namely those that say that things are open and freely available, that people can access and use the works of others with the minimum of external control.

These conflicts are found in copyright, to balance and determine the rights of the consumer to acquire and use material versus the rights of the owner to exploit their creative work; between the status of ISPs as "common carrier" and the legitimate needs of law enforcement to intercept criminal activity; between the business models of incumbents and the desire of consumers to produce and consume more and more digital data. ...
The article does not necessarily represent the views of the NZCS. It is an opinion piece by the Managing Director of an ISP. From other comments I've heard, he's not alone in his views. (And the traffic caused by copyright infringement is not an inducement to condone it. As he, and others, point out, the biggest problem facing ISPs in this country is too much traffic, not too little.)

I foresee... interesting times. This is a bad(ly drafted) law. It was passed literally in the dead of night, bypassing the normal checks and balances. It may well be unenforceable due to rights violations. Take a look at the third article I referenced ("It's the law") and mentally apply the scenario to the DMCA. Can you see American civil liberties groups (and Consitutionalists) meekly accepting a law worded that way?

In summary, the argument is not whether copyright should be more vigorously enforced. None of the articles I referenced disagree with that. The argument, and this thread, is about the ramifications of the law recently passed in this country to enable this enforcement.
#88
6th June 2011
Old 6th June 2011
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Announcement of an educational DVD about copyright theft for distribution to schools etc, plus coverage of the ongoing debate over the fees ISPs will be allowed to charge copyright holders for forwarding infringement notices etc.

Top comic joins piracy fracas | Stuff.co.nz
#89
6th June 2011
Old 6th June 2011
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#90
7th June 2011
Old 7th June 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
That picture of Mr. McInroe is the very face of evil. Jules would not like3 me to elucidate the feelings that article inspires in me.

Concerning the previous post about Mr Darby - it was a very courageous and admirable thing for him to make that video. It's sad that he doesn't appear to really have the strength of his convictions and is attempting to backpedal after a few thieves and anarchists express displeasure.

Appearing wishy-washy will not do him any good. He should stick to his guns.
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