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Music should be free. If you don't want it 'stolen' then don't record it.
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#121
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicdefault View Post
The notion that music should be free is just plain silly. And the law is on the side of this blatantly obvious fact. There are protections for intellectual properties, period. How it all plays out is a different story.

I'm all for being realistic, but allowing the enormous dilemma of piracy to somehow brainwash us all into the cynical fallacy that artists should throw in the towel and attribute no tangible value to their work would be nothing short of a travesty.

Anyone who cares about music should realize we need to work together to foster a healthy mindset towards a fair marketplace.

-SD
#122
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #122
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This is what the OP's argument seems like IMO:

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#123
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
i used to think i had all the answers. the older i get, the more i realize, i don't know shit..
Even though you said there is no bottom line earlier in your post... you actually found it.

THAT is a good post.
#124
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elginchris View Post
the old system of selling music will never work again. anyone who thinks otherwise might as well stop reading this post right now.

all music should be free in cost.

as an artist/label, the only way to make money 'selling' music is through advertising and merchandising.

---end of story---

Fans are not the only ones who want what is "hot". Marketers make entire careers "breaking" underground artist to the main stream. Thats where the deals should be made.

sighhhh.....
#125
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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The thing you all need to realize is you ARE fighting against public opinion to a certain extent. There really are people who think music should be free. Just jumping up and down stomping your feet is not going to change their minds. If you want it to change, you really need to think big and long term and figure out how to bring these people around.

"Facepalms" aren't going to do it. You've already lost a few battles along the way, it's not a simple or trivial thing to change these people's mindset.
#126
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
The thing you all need to realize is you ARE fighting against public opinion to a certain extent. There really are people who think music should be free. Just jumping up and down stomping your feet is not going to change their minds. If you want it to change, you really need to think big and long term and figure out how to bring these people around.

"Facepalms" aren't going to do it. You've already lost a few battles along the way, it's not a simple or trivial thing to change these people's mindset.
It is not a fight over public opinion. It is a political battle and the pirate side is not really winning.

If peoples' personal opinions decided anything and compliance was optional, no one would pay taxes either.
#127
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobius.media View Post
It is not a fight over public opinion. It is a political battle and the pirate side is not winning.
Interesting perspective. I think you're wrong, but I guess time will tell.

If you get it wrong and you don't try and change mindset while creating some draconian closed system, I suspect you will make things worse.

I think you are underestimating the impact a group of disgruntled individuals who have endless time and energy can have.
#128
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Interesting perspective. I think you're wrong, but I guess time will tell.

If you get it wrong and you don't try and change mindset while creating some draconian closed system, I suspect you will make things worse.

I think you are underestimating the impact a group of disgruntled individuals who have endless time and energy can have.
Look at taxes. Hardly anyone would pay if it was up to the individual to decide. It is not a question of personal opinion. People pay because they don't want the tax bureau coming down on them. They don't pay because they voluntarily understand the need and want to contribute.

Plenty of individuals with endless time and energy fight this sort of thing, forming radical "anti tax groups" and finding ways to live "off the grid". Who cares? In the end, most people don't want to be bothered, and they pay their due. If you cheat, you do so at your own risk, with real possible consequences.

If every political/legal decision was subject to a referendum, nothing would get done.
#129
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Interesting perspective. I think you're wrong, but I guess time will tell.

If you get it wrong and you don't try and change mindset while creating some draconian closed system, I suspect you will make things worse.

I think you are underestimating the impact a group of disgruntled individuals who have endless time and energy can have.
thanks for sharing, that's an interesting perspective

so then the world should be ruled by a disgruntled anarchist mob of hackers? you really think the future should be ruled by digirati thugs?

no matter how things turn out - I just don't see a future where lawlessness is the accepted norm.

if you want to see how well that works take a look at Somalia, Ethiopia and Nigeria...
#130
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
However, the TRUTH is there are people right here in this very thread with an attitude of ENTITLEMENT, that the world OWES them a working wage just because they create music.
Oh man, oh man, oh MAN.
This very silly point has been raised so many times in threads like these it's starting to make me furious. I've rebutted it time after time, but don't seem to be making any headway.
It's super, super simple.
If I ascribe a fee to my services - I'm entitled to be paid that fee if someone uses those services.
I'm a drummer and I also write music for tv.
If someone asks me to play drums on their record and I quote my fee and they hire me.... I'm entitled to be paid.
If I write a piece of music for a film and I attach a fee to it's use, I'm entitled to be paid.
This is the capitalist system probably 99.9% of those posting on this forum live under.
I, and the vast majority of professionals, fully understand that if my drumming and composing stinks and no one uses it, then I am NOT entitled to make a living in music.
What is happening is that people do like music, do like software plug-ins, but don't feel motivated to pay for them when they consume.
Those people are not being prosecuted, so the epidemic has spread almost out of control.
So please tell me who is 'entitled' in the most sick and damaging way - people who charge a fee and insist on being paid for their work if it is consumed, or people who consume products that have a price, but refuse to pay for it?
Please compare professional musicians to workers at Walmart, Bank Of America, or San Farncisco City Council. You expect a wage from your work in a capitalist system, and we are now being painted as greedy individuals unless we allow music consumers to take the fruit of our labour without being paid for it.
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#131
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
There really are people who think music should be free.
There are a lot of people thinking all kinds of nonsense. Should we all surrender to all kind of bullshit just because somebody or a lot of people are 'thinking' it? Where is Nietzsche when you need him ...
There are two sorts of interest groups presenting 'thoughts' about their wish to take advantage from others work for free: dumb couch potatoes, the epitome of the consumer amoeba, and parts of the media and entertainment industry which simply try to save costs (the best is zero cost). You can be the voice of one or all of these groups, conscious or unconscious, until they get you in what you are doing and make a living from.
#132
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicAndFilmGeek View Post
thanks for sharing, that's an interesting perspective

so then the world should be ruled by a disgruntled anarchist mob of hackers? you really think the future should be ruled by digirati thugs?

no matter how things turn out - I just don't see a future where lawlessness is the accepted norm.

if you want to see how well that works take a look at Somalia, Ethiopia and Nigeria...
Too funny.

Every time you respond to someone and choose to reframe their argument, you come up with some extreme example, is if the world is full of just two kinds of people.

You REALLY think that people who download music illegally are all "digirati thugs?" Good lord.
#133
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
The thing you all need to realize is you ARE fighting against public opinion to a certain extent. There really are people who think music should be free.
My neighbours think gasoline should be free, and that milk is way over priced at the local store.
It's no great mystery, people love something for nothing, especially if they can persuade themselves all musicians live like Puff Daddy and the recording industry is run like British Petroleum.
The fact is the free music idea is a very blunt instrument.
Piracy is hitting small independents and average working musicians very hard.
It doesn't solely target the very wealthy and the so called 'corrupt' majors.
Illegal downloaders download the music they love, which is just as likely to be an underground indie band on a small label, making pennies out of music and struggling to keep the band together.
#134
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
There are a lot of people thinking all kinds of nonsense. Should we all surrender to all kind of bullshit just because somebody or a lot of people are 'thinking' it?
Let me put this simply. If you don't understand who they are and why they think that way, AND come up with a strategy for how to execute a mindshift for them, your ability to succeed is limited.

It's not about SURRENDER. Good lord, why is everyone so stuck in this binary thinking? Either you surrender or you kill 'em all?

ANYONE who has worked in communications understands you need to figure out why people have a certain mindset and understand that mindset before you can change it. Pretending you can just change the rules without dealing with the mindshift change is extremely foolish.
#135
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
If I ascribe a fee to my services - I'm entitled to be paid that fee if someone uses those services.
SURE! Of course, nobody is saying otherwise.

You are NOT entitled to earn a living in music though, just because you have spent xxx years perfecting your craft. THAT is the entitlement I'm speaking of.

You are not entitled to be able to do the same thing and make the same money while the industry changes.
#136
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
You are not entitled to be able to do the same thing and make the same money while the industry changes.
This is an excellent statement that accurately reflects both market economies and the current paradigm shift in the music "industry".
#137
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Let me put this simply. If you don't understand who they are and why they think that way, AND come up with a strategy for how to execute a mindshift for them, your ability to succeed is limited.
Pretending you can just change the rules without dealing with the mindshift change is extremely foolish.
I disagree. It's not about 'mindset'.
Put U2 on in your local venue and open the doors and thousands of people will walk in (free of charge).
Publicize a ticket price and have security at the venue making sure no one comes in without a ticket and it's the system we've all accepted for a hundred years or more.
Musicians have put a price on their recordings - it's like purchasing a ticket.
It's not wrong for recording musicians to insist the price is paid, the same way you don't expect a band to shrug shoulders and say OK if their live audience gatecrashes the venue and no one pays for a ticket to the concert.
It's an issue of security (regarding recordings), not mindset.
#138
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Let me put this simply. If you don't understand who they are and why they think that way, AND come up with a strategy for how to execute a mindshift for them, your ability to succeed is limited.

ANYONE who has worked in communications understands you need to figure out why people have a certain mindset and understand that mindset before you can change it. Pretending you can just change the rules without dealing with the mindshift change is extremely foolish.
Everyone already knows what the mindset is. It's a mindset of entitlement. Not on the part of the copyright holders. On the part of those who think their piracy is somehow 'righteous' or 'progressive'.

The idea that they should need to be 'convinced' to agree with the law before they follow it is ludicrous. That is not how laws work.
#139
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
SURE! Of course, nobody is saying otherwise.

You are NOT entitled to earn a living in music though, just because you have spent xxx years perfecting your craft. THAT is the entitlement I'm speaking of.

You are not entitled to be able to do the same thing and make the same money while the industry changes.
Firstly, I haven't seen anyone on the anti free music side claim entitlement to earn a living, only that their fee is paid for in full.
You, or anyone else, wouldn't accept that in any other job.
This is the capitalist system. If you don't like it, change the capitalist system, don't try and live one way yourself and expect others to live by a different rule.
I'm entitled to my fee under the current legal system.
That's hugely important. The industry model (as a legal system) isn't changing.
If no one likes my work, fair enough I don't get paid. If someone does like my work they must pay the entry fee.
I feel your argument is pretty weak to be honest.
With regards to my drum sample software, it takes thousands of dollars and a group of several professional people to produce the product.
It costs $79 or something to buy.
Most people buy it legally, some people pirate it.
Am I wrong here? Am I greedily 'entitled'? Has the music industry changed so much we should happily produce software for musicians, which entails a lot of hard work and costs money from our own pockets, and then complain when individuals take it and pay nothing?
I'm really struggling to see us as the bad guys and the stealers as the future..... worse, as a positive future.
#140
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #140
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Regarding entitlement.....
I would love to park near my apartment in the city free of charge.
Unfortunately the meters run from 8am to 10pm.
The council are entitled under law to charge a fee for parking, or fine me if I don't pay.

Musicians are entitled to charge a fee for their work.
Any suggestion that musicians feel they deserve a living from music regardless of anything is very wide of the reality.
Musicians, more than anyone, understand the frail nature of their income earning capacity. All the more reason to pay them when the music is consumed.
#141
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #141
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OP is offering to mix all our songs for free?? and Ill put them up for free and sell a tshirt with every album, and then give him $200, Ill keep the rest and the musicians can divy up the $200 between themselves, mean idea!

This thread is the prolific!
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#142
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #142
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noted.

i don't want my music stolen, so I'll never write another song again.
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#143
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's not wrong for recording musicians to insist the price is paid, the same way you don't expect a band to shrug shoulders and say OK if their live audience gatecrashes the venue and no one pays for a ticket to the concert.
It's an issue of security (regarding recordings), not mindset.
It's not wrong, but it's not working that way right now, correct?

You have already LOST the argument, if piracy is as bad as people here say it is.

If the numbers you guys are working with are correct, MORE of your audience is NOT paying then paying.

YOU ALREADY LOST. Whether it's right or wrong, the status quo exists NOW.

So if you change the law without changing mindset, you will piss off your audience in a way you don't understand. If you want to change the law, make sure you are also creating a PR campaign to change the mindset.

This is basic PR.

The reality is, we live in a digital world where digital policing is VERY difficult. IF you can come up with a way of stopping piracy that is foolproof and doesn't violate privacy, you are a genius. I don't know what that solution is. Instead, you have a situation where people are playing wack-a-mole with you and you are losing.

So changing the law, unless you have a foolproof solution, won't solve the problem.
#144
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
Too funny.

Every time you respond to someone and choose to reframe their argument, you come up with some extreme example, is if the world is full of just two kinds of people.

You REALLY think that people who download music illegally are all "digirati thugs?" Good lord.
this is your post, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
I think you are underestimating the impact a group of disgruntled individuals who have endless time and energy can have.
so who exactly are these "disgruntled individuals who have endless time and energy"

who is "disgruntled and invests endless time and energy?"

and why exactly should I fear them? what are they going to do? they're already stealing my labor...
#145
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm really struggling to see us as the bad guys and the stealers as the future..... worse, as a positive future.
Yea, me too. Oh, wait.. you think I'M suggesting that??

We live in the world as is. Not in the world as we'd like it to be. I don't know whether we'll solve the piracy issue. I kinda doubt it, but I hope so. Either way, if it does NOT get solved, musicians need to change, and change soon. If you're waiting for government to step in and solve this and not preparing yourself, then I think you're making a mistake.
#146
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
The reality is, we live in a digital world where digital policing is VERY difficult. IF you can come up with a way of stopping piracy that is foolproof and doesn't violate privacy, you are a genius. I don't know what that solution is. Instead, you have a situation where people are playing wack-a-mole with you and you are losing.

So changing the law, unless you have a foolproof solution, won't solve the problem.
Digital policing for the vast majority of piracy without violating privacy of law-abiding users is incredibly easy. Everyone who needs to knows how it can be done.

The law just hasn't supported it in past years like it is beginning to now.
#147
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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See my previous post. The world is what it is right now.

I suggest you work to change people's mindset about piracy. That is not in the absence of changing law; it's part of what SHOULD be your plan. If you think you can legislate morality, you'll discover... let's just say, "those who don't learn from the past..."
#148
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
  #148
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You completely dodged the question about how you claim so many posters feel 'entitled'.
You've also dodged the question why anyone should produce software for musicians, that's costs us time and money to do, then accept people taking it for nothing.
You completely dodged the question about the status quo all other members of society enjoy.
They do their jobs, they get paid.
Governments tax us, councils legislate for parking bays (fees or parking fines).
Not many in society are for paying tax or parking fees.
It's not about mindset or PR, it's about enforcing our legal rights.
Musicians have fought long and hard over many years to establish a legal framework for payment.
I'm talking everyone from 80 year old obscure blues artists to 16 year old kids making their first record.
And you are asking us to walk away from that, just because the punters don't like paying a couple of dollars for a record?
#149
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad View Post
See my previous post. The world is what it is right now.

I suggest you work to change people's mindset about piracy. That is not in the absence of changing law; it's part of what SHOULD be your plan. If you think you can legislate morality, you'll discover... let's just say, "those who don't learn from the past..."
Give me a break. Software/games/publishers/RIAA have all invested TONNES in educational campaigns for years. No one cares. The prevailing attitude has always been "If I can get away with it, I will."

It is an attitude that is not unique to copyright.
#150
20th June 2010
Old 20th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobius.media View Post
Digital policing for the vast majority of piracy without violating privacy of law-abiding users is incredibly easy. Everyone who needs to knows how it can be done.

The law just hasn't supported it in past years like it is beginning to now.
How do you handle tunneling then?

People will likely figure out a way around it, unless you infringe on their privacy.

I just don't think it's that simple... I'd love to be proven wrong...
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