after years of wading through these kinds of threads, and 8 gagillion opinions -
professional, amateur, tech, and musician, educated and self-taught,
hard-working, lazy and entitled, humble and self-righteous, ignorant and insightful,
talented and tone-deaf, broke and loaded, born with a silver spoon and successfully entrepreneurial,
respectful and irreverent, independently creative/expressive and copycat/poser/wannabe,
lucky or cursed, connected or ass out - in every freeking genre, i've come to a conclusion.
the bottom line is..............there is no bottom line.
every single musician, and every single human, is different.
we each want different things out of life.
and this changes constantly - given our environment, stage in life, etc.
some folks want to read about specs on ribbon microphones until their laptop battery dies.
others want to make a gazillion dollars in the industry with marketing and merch.
other want to compose 85 minimalistic symphonies.
some want to get high and get laid all the time.
other want to spread political and social messages.
still others want to stay in school their entire lives and get 8 million degrees.
some want to paint themselves green and jump up and down on stage screaming.
others want a union sound effects gig for a movie studio.
some want to hang out and jam all night. or play covers.
some want to be as famous as possible party with gaga, etc.
some want to wrap cables all day, tune guitars, set up amps and mic stands.
or just hang with the band.
some people just get off telling everyone what to do all the time.
others want to philosophize 'til the cows come home.
some people just copy other people for the rest of their lives - and never discover themselves.
etc., etc.
but regardless, most of us in the entertainment industry live in a fantasy world,
and never come to terms with the fact that we only have one life,
(depending on our belief system) - so, we'd better start trying to make the best of it.
at the end of the day, there's no prize. nobody's watching you.
you're the only one who really matters. so be good to yourself, and be good to others.
i used to think i had all the answers. the older i get, the more i realize, i don't know shit.
but if i ask any one of the younger generation here,
you're all driven and opinionated like mutherf*kkers.
this just reminds me of myself not so long ago.
FWIW, i say - do what you love. and if you don't know what that is,
spend some time trying to figure it out - because you only have one life on this planet -
as far as i know.
anyway, cheers - and i wish you all the best, slutz - you ROK!
The notion that music should be free is just plain silly. And the law is on the side of this blatantly obvious fact. There are protections for intellectual properties, period. How it all plays out is a different story.
I'm all for being realistic, but allowing the enormous dilemma of piracy to somehow brainwash us all into the cynical fallacy that artists should throw in the towel and attribute no tangible value to their work would be nothing short of a travesty.
Anyone who cares about music should realize we need to work together to foster a healthy mindset towards a fair marketplace.
-SD
__________________ ...My goal for many, many years was to obtain a beautiful API desk and be buried with it when I die... vin-gear
...My 57 is only a few years old, but I'd like to think that someday my children can pass it down to their children. Killahurts
...I would much rather tweak a moog than that thing bro... MYAMS
Regardless of what you think of the current state of music, or what you think of labels or whatever complaints you may have on it all, it is an industry that supplies jobs to people. Those people need to stay employed and should.
Yes there could be a lot of improvements made to a lot of things, but, that goes for anything, I mean have you looked at Governments lately? The financial meltdown of Countries, States, The World?? Have you not seen the destruction we are doing to our planet, chasing the dollar bill??
The answer to this is not, free music, screw the labels, etc. etc. The answer is education, a re defining of the purpose of life, a singular goal towards human prosperity. Killing the arts is not the way to get there, in actuality, supporting the arts and making them ever so important is a great first step.
Kill the music industry and any other creative industry along with the meltdown of societies and we have major issues on our hands, free music being the least of them. You want anarchy??? It might be coming if it all keeps up like it is. There are far too many job losses, not enough job creations. California is on the verge of bankruptcy and in need of a bailout. It is evident the recovery is not happening as thought.
Working a 9-5 and trying to make good music do not go well together, in fact for some of us it is pretty damn impossible. Some can do it, but it should not be the norm or the music will suffer and music cannot die, we cannot let that happen. Somehow artists need to be able to make money so they can spend the time needed in honing their craft and educating and practicing and creating otherwise we will have a sad World, worse then it already is.
What needs to happen is all this bickering, stabbing everyone in the back, fighting each-other over petty issues needs to stop. There are massive problems that the whole of the human race is facing, together.
Somehow people need to put their differences aside and come together to work this stuff out. Why does something drastic need to happen to have people stop ****ing each-other and actually work together for once.
Unfortunately it seems we just keep strengthening the divide and quarreling like little children.
I often feel ashamed and disgraced to be a part of this race and struggle just trying to find reasons to continue living. Everyone thinks they are so great and amazing, with all their material garbage and big status and because they move heavy weight they are some God or something...what a joke, we are nothing more then parasitic leeches raping the World of its life.
Sometimes I think we should all just say screw it, kick back put the feet up and watch the World burn to ash, what is the point? Why bother fixing anything when the race has proven it only cares for killing and destruction and doing anything necessary for a buck....The World is our play pen and we are all trying to take each-others candy, when in reality there is enough candy for everyone. Ain't nothing perfect, nor will it ever be. The music issue is a small one in a pile of a ton of other issues.
Anyways what do I know? I am just a dreamer. I fail to see how we will ever be able to put our differences aside. Maybe if some super race came here to take over our planet we might actually realize we are in this together. Until then I guess we will just continue acting like children...
The notion that music should be free is just plain silly. And the law is on the side of this blatantly obvious fact. There are protections for intellectual properties, period. How it all plays out is a different story.
I'm all for being realistic, but allowing the enormous dilemma of piracy to somehow brainwash us all into the cynical fallacy that artists should throw in the towel and attribute no tangible value to their work would be nothing short of a travesty.
Anyone who cares about music should realize we need to work together to foster a healthy mindset towards a fair marketplace.
the old system of selling music will never work again. anyone who thinks otherwise might as well stop reading this post right now.
all music should be free in cost.
as an artist/label, the only way to make money 'selling' music is through advertising and merchandising.
---end of story---
Fans are not the only ones who want what is "hot". Marketers make entire careers "breaking" underground artist to the main stream. Thats where the deals should be made.
The thing you all need to realize is you ARE fighting against public opinion to a certain extent. There really are people who think music should be free. Just jumping up and down stomping your feet is not going to change their minds. If you want it to change, you really need to think big and long term and figure out how to bring these people around.
"Facepalms" aren't going to do it. You've already lost a few battles along the way, it's not a simple or trivial thing to change these people's mindset.
It is not a fight over public opinion. It is a political battle and the pirate side is not really winning.
If peoples' personal opinions decided anything and compliance was optional, no one would pay taxes either.
Interesting perspective. I think you're wrong, but I guess time will tell.
If you get it wrong and you don't try and change mindset while creating some draconian closed system, I suspect you will make things worse.
I think you are underestimating the impact a group of disgruntled individuals who have endless time and energy can have.
Look at taxes. Hardly anyone would pay if it was up to the individual to decide. It is not a question of personal opinion. People pay because they don't want the tax bureau coming down on them. They don't pay because they voluntarily understand the need and want to contribute.
Plenty of individuals with endless time and energy fight this sort of thing, forming radical "anti tax groups" and finding ways to live "off the grid". Who cares? In the end, most people don't want to be bothered, and they pay their due. If you cheat, you do so at your own risk, with real possible consequences.
If every political/legal decision was subject to a referendum, nothing would get done.
However, the TRUTH is there are people right here in this very thread with an attitude of ENTITLEMENT, that the world OWES them a working wage just because they create music.
Oh man, oh man, oh MAN.
This very silly point has been raised so many times in threads like these it's starting to make me furious. I've rebutted it time after time, but don't seem to be making any headway.
It's super, super simple.
If I ascribe a fee to my services - I'm entitled to be paid that fee if someone uses those services.
I'm a drummer and I also write music for tv.
If someone asks me to play drums on their record and I quote my fee and they hire me.... I'm entitled to be paid.
If I write a piece of music for a film and I attach a fee to it's use, I'm entitled to be paid.
This is the capitalist system probably 99.9% of those posting on this forum live under.
I, and the vast majority of professionals, fully understand that if my drumming and composing stinks and no one uses it, then I am NOT entitled to make a living in music.
What is happening is that people do like music, do like software plug-ins, but don't feel motivated to pay for them when they consume.
Those people are not being prosecuted, so the epidemic has spread almost out of control.
So please tell me who is 'entitled' in the most sick and damaging way - people who charge a fee and insist on being paid for their work if it is consumed, or people who consume products that have a price, but refuse to pay for it?
Please compare professional musicians to workers at Walmart, Bank Of America, or San Farncisco City Council. You expect a wage from your work in a capitalist system, and we are now being painted as greedy individuals unless we allow music consumers to take the fruit of our labour without being paid for it.
There really are people who think music should be free.
There are a lot of people thinking all kinds of nonsense. Should we all surrender to all kind of bullshit just because somebody or a lot of people are 'thinking' it? Where is Nietzsche when you need him ...
There are two sorts of interest groups presenting 'thoughts' about their wish to take advantage from others work for free: dumb couch potatoes, the epitome of the consumer amoeba, and parts of the media and entertainment industry which simply try to save costs (the best is zero cost). You can be the voice of one or all of these groups, conscious or unconscious, until they get you in what you are doing and make a living from.
The thing you all need to realize is you ARE fighting against public opinion to a certain extent. There really are people who think music should be free.
My neighbours think gasoline should be free, and that milk is way over priced at the local store.
It's no great mystery, people love something for nothing, especially if they can persuade themselves all musicians live like Puff Daddy and the recording industry is run like British Petroleum.
The fact is the free music idea is a very blunt instrument.
Piracy is hitting small independents and average working musicians very hard.
It doesn't solely target the very wealthy and the so called 'corrupt' majors.
Illegal downloaders download the music they love, which is just as likely to be an underground indie band on a small label, making pennies out of music and struggling to keep the band together.
Let me put this simply. If you don't understand who they are and why they think that way, AND come up with a strategy for how to execute a mindshift for them, your ability to succeed is limited.
Pretending you can just change the rules without dealing with the mindshift change is extremely foolish.
I disagree. It's not about 'mindset'.
Put U2 on in your local venue and open the doors and thousands of people will walk in (free of charge).
Publicize a ticket price and have security at the venue making sure no one comes in without a ticket and it's the system we've all accepted for a hundred years or more.
Musicians have put a price on their recordings - it's like purchasing a ticket.
It's not wrong for recording musicians to insist the price is paid, the same way you don't expect a band to shrug shoulders and say OK if their live audience gatecrashes the venue and no one pays for a ticket to the concert.
It's an issue of security (regarding recordings), not mindset.
Let me put this simply. If you don't understand who they are and why they think that way, AND come up with a strategy for how to execute a mindshift for them, your ability to succeed is limited.
ANYONE who has worked in communications understands you need to figure out why people have a certain mindset and understand that mindset before you can change it. Pretending you can just change the rules without dealing with the mindshift change is extremely foolish.
Everyone already knows what the mindset is. It's a mindset of entitlement. Not on the part of the copyright holders. On the part of those who think their piracy is somehow 'righteous' or 'progressive'.
The idea that they should need to be 'convinced' to agree with the law before they follow it is ludicrous. That is not how laws work.
You are NOT entitled to earn a living in music though, just because you have spent xxx years perfecting your craft. THAT is the entitlement I'm speaking of.
You are not entitled to be able to do the same thing and make the same money while the industry changes.
Firstly, I haven't seen anyone on the anti free music side claim entitlement to earn a living, only that their fee is paid for in full.
You, or anyone else, wouldn't accept that in any other job.
This is the capitalist system. If you don't like it, change the capitalist system, don't try and live one way yourself and expect others to live by a different rule.
I'm entitled to my fee under the current legal system.
That's hugely important. The industry model (as a legal system) isn't changing.
If no one likes my work, fair enough I don't get paid. If someone does like my work they must pay the entry fee.
I feel your argument is pretty weak to be honest.
With regards to my drum sample software, it takes thousands of dollars and a group of several professional people to produce the product.
It costs $79 or something to buy.
Most people buy it legally, some people pirate it.
Am I wrong here? Am I greedily 'entitled'? Has the music industry changed so much we should happily produce software for musicians, which entails a lot of hard work and costs money from our own pockets, and then complain when individuals take it and pay nothing?
I'm really struggling to see us as the bad guys and the stealers as the future..... worse, as a positive future.
Regarding entitlement.....
I would love to park near my apartment in the city free of charge.
Unfortunately the meters run from 8am to 10pm.
The council are entitled under law to charge a fee for parking, or fine me if I don't pay.
Musicians are entitled to charge a fee for their work.
Any suggestion that musicians feel they deserve a living from music regardless of anything is very wide of the reality.
Musicians, more than anyone, understand the frail nature of their income earning capacity. All the more reason to pay them when the music is consumed.
OP is offering to mix all our songs for free?? and Ill put them up for free and sell a tshirt with every album, and then give him $200, Ill keep the rest and the musicians can divy up the $200 between themselves, mean idea!
Every time you respond to someone and choose to reframe their argument, you come up with some extreme example, is if the world is full of just two kinds of people.
You REALLY think that people who download music illegally are all "digirati thugs?" Good lord.
this is your post, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by psalad
I think you are underestimating the impact a group of disgruntled individuals who have endless time and energy can have.
so who exactly are these "disgruntled individuals who have endless time and energy"
who is "disgruntled and invests endless time and energy?"
and why exactly should I fear them? what are they going to do? they're already stealing my labor...
The reality is, we live in a digital world where digital policing is VERY difficult. IF you can come up with a way of stopping piracy that is foolproof and doesn't violate privacy, you are a genius. I don't know what that solution is. Instead, you have a situation where people are playing wack-a-mole with you and you are losing.
So changing the law, unless you have a foolproof solution, won't solve the problem.
Digital policing for the vast majority of piracy without violating privacy of law-abiding users is incredibly easy. Everyone who needs to knows how it can be done.
The law just hasn't supported it in past years like it is beginning to now.
You completely dodged the question about how you claim so many posters feel 'entitled'.
You've also dodged the question why anyone should produce software for musicians, that's costs us time and money to do, then accept people taking it for nothing.
You completely dodged the question about the status quo all other members of society enjoy.
They do their jobs, they get paid.
Governments tax us, councils legislate for parking bays (fees or parking fines).
Not many in society are for paying tax or parking fees.
It's not about mindset or PR, it's about enforcing our legal rights.
Musicians have fought long and hard over many years to establish a legal framework for payment.
I'm talking everyone from 80 year old obscure blues artists to 16 year old kids making their first record.
And you are asking us to walk away from that, just because the punters don't like paying a couple of dollars for a record?
See my previous post. The world is what it is right now.
I suggest you work to change people's mindset about piracy. That is not in the absence of changing law; it's part of what SHOULD be your plan. If you think you can legislate morality, you'll discover... let's just say, "those who don't learn from the past..."
Give me a break. Software/games/publishers/RIAA have all invested TONNES in educational campaigns for years. No one cares. The prevailing attitude has always been "If I can get away with it, I will."
It is an attitude that is not unique to copyright.
If you think you can legislate morality, you'll discover... let's just say, "those who don't learn from the past..."
Hmm, so who do you think occupies the high moral ground?
Artists who are ripped off, or customers who do not pay, even though they understand the law states they should AND they wouldn't accept not being paid in their employment?
Plus, in centralized proxies, someone has to pay for the bandwidth, which makes them subject to liability no different than an ISP.
Decentralized proxies like Tor are unreliable, and can also be easily infiltrated by any motivated party with a bit of money to set up a multitude of nodes.
Quote:
People will likely figure out a way around it, unless you infringe on their privacy.
I just don't think it's that simple... I'd love to be proven wrong...
All major P2P protocols publicize your IP and what you are sharing. No one else's privacy needs to be invaded to see what you are sharing with the world. You volunteer that information every time you connect.
The Pirate Party....Why the anti-copyright movement are wrong
*****EDIT 1500 POSTS- GENERAL CONSENSUS & SYNOPSIS ***************
Hi all. It's been a really interesting debate. We've made some progress without delving *too* often into flame wars and trollish behavior. The debate has raged for the last 1500 posts but we're beginning to see a 'winding down'. Here is a brief synopsis of what has been happening so far.....
The current general consensus.
If ever a sentence could be constructed; that could portray the general consensus of this forum without inciting rage hatred and death, so bulletproof in its prose, that it could stand up to the rigour of the flame-war, the sweet abandon of the trolls, this would not be it; not by a long-shot, but it's nice to try!....
....."Piracy, although damaging to the industry, is probably not as bad a crime as say stealing a car. But more akin to illegally parking a car and as such the punishment should fit the crime. If ALL ISP's were required by law to implement a '1st strike-warning...2nd strike-$90 fine......3rd strike- $180 fine.....4th strike...banned for 3 months or whatever,
MOST of the people here would be happy"
Whilst no-one [except maybe for lemonsqueezer] has denied that piracy has had some negative impact on revenue, there has been much debate as to the extent of this negative impact.
Some arguments have revolved around "the industry are shifting more units than ever before so piracy is not harming anyone"
The rebuttal to this argument generally went "In the last 10 years, revenues from sales (both pysical & digital) have dropped by 38% in spite of an economic boom/more computers/ipods/iphones/internet access/"
Another rebuttal to this was redvelvetstudios response in which he provided evidence to suggest that 95% of ipods are comprised of illegal music.
The 'moral' question was a very common theme throughout this thread ("stealing is morally wrong and/or against the law)
Dispensing with the 'moral' question was a pretty strong theme througout this debate as well!
"It doesn't matter whether you think Piracy is wrong or not. Piracy is here to stay and there is nothing you can do to stop it"
There was much toing and froing to questions of this type. Some of the more passionate pro-copyrighters were calling for blood!, whilst the pro-piracy supporters were almost Mel Gibson-esque in their "You can take our lives, but you will never log our IP addresses"
In the midst of all this, I found a very measured view in the form of RedVelvetStudios in which he likened piracy to parking illegally.....
In an instant, he turned what seemed like a 9/11 conspiracy nut-job forum into something more *ahem* reasonable!!
Originally Posted by redvelvetstudios
Seriously? Why are you making this molehill into a mountain?
We're talking about parking tickets not concentration camps. When my wife gets a parking ticket, it sucks - but she has to pay it.
See the Verizon link again that's been posted here at least a half dozen times - this would be covered on TOS, you can pay the fine or elect to defend yourself, at your cost.
Violate Terms Of Service and you get a $100 fine. Do it three times that's $300 and you lose access for 30 days. Do it three more times you pay another $300 and loose access for 60 days. Do it three more times and you another $300 and loose access for 90 days.
Don't you think it's just cheaper and easier to buy the 99 cent songs instead of paying $900 to loose your internet access for 18 months?
Internet access is a privilege, like driving a car. It can be taken away if abused.
Finally XHipHop was the only one who made an attempt at refuting the original post 1 of this thread. (tho I'm not sure if this was more of a point of view than a rebuttal?)
Whilst this doesn't necessarily make the anti-copyright movement wrong, their silence on these points only served to weaken their case.
**********************************************************************************
OP File-sharing has been around for 20 years or so now.
The Pirate Party would have us believe in an idylic world where ALL intellectual property is free. They talk arrogantly about it on their manifesto as something that will happen in the future. But why must we look into the future with rose tinted glasses. What about the present? Every song, nearly every film and a vast amount of cracked games/software are already 'free'.
Are we living the dream the Pirate Party would have us believe in? Is there any evidence supporting their arguments that freedom of IP will actually help anyone in the future (bar maybe PirateBAy)?
1- One of the main arguments espoused by the anti-copyright movement is the one of
"Piracy Helps Promote Bands...... what they lose in mechanical sales/mp3 sales, they make up for in gig revenue."
Sure it does....Us musicians make a tonne from gigging don't we!
But do sites like MySpace not do the same job of allowing an artist to reach a larger audience?
2- "there is a tendency for Objective Quality to diminish"
Whilst all this file-sharing *may* all be very good for bands who can make their fortune by gigs and t-shirt sales alone....what about all those people in the background? The Engineers, Producers, the Specialist Equipment needed (which we on GS know only too well), the studio rental, promoters, publishing, pluggers, management, right down to the support staff...the guy who puts up the posters, etc etc.
Whilst its generally par for the course that the artist will suffer for their art.....all these people in the background will generally not.....
They accept hard cash as currency.
In software/film, it gets even worse.....there are many, many more people involved than with music. They do not have the 'advantage' of having gigs to play either. The coders, animators, technicians, camera-people, actors, rental of studio-space, taxes, cleaners, plumbers, electricians. These specialist people with specialist skills do not work for free.
Traditionally it was the music-buying-game-playing-film-going public who pays for these people. Under the 'everything is free' model who pays for these people?
So there is a tendency for the objective quality to diminish in correlation with reduced revenues.
2- Piracy, instead of freeing us from opportunism, actually promotes it.
One of the greatest lies ever put forth from the anti-copyright movement is the one of. "when everything is free, the simon cowells and pop-puppets of this world will disappear"
Simon Cowell couldn't care less about Piracy. In fact he is doing better than anyone else in the industry at the moment....Why?
His x-factor shows generate the vast majority of their money by way of selling text-messages and advertising slots....The money generated from single sales by the 'winning' artist pales in comparision. [don't have the exact source for this, I remember reading it not so long ago on one of the Irish Broadsheets....Times/Independent]
In short..opportunism never goes away; it just follows the money.
3- Under the 'everything is free' model, there is also tendency for the most creative of people to be weeded out....
Whilst Piracy can never kill creativity, it can certainly stifle it.
If the investors follow the money to these opportunistic endeavours, then there is also the possibility that the very creative people who should be receiving financial backing will never get it....the money follows the less risky investments in lieu of the more creative, yet risky, projects.
4- If musicians/directors/game-houses are not going to make any money, why the hell should sites like Megavideo, Pirate Bay etc be making it?
I don't have the figures for Megavideo, but it was revealed at the PirateBay trials that the Swedish Wing alone of Pirate Bay generates $4,000,000 anually.
[note this is an estimate for the Swedish wing only; world-wide figures are unavailable-]
[note 2- there are many figures bandied around some as low as $1m, others as high as $9m but
TPB Raking in Millions — Industry Watch
gives a pretty good idea of figures involved as it quotes the actual advertising company that the Piratebay used at the time before the trials]
I understand that, the PirateBay/ Megavideo will have bandwidth costs etc, but $4,000,000 seems excessive....if anyone would care to speculate on how much bandwidth these sites use/cost...please do by all means.
Bilbo
Last edited by bilbobaggins; 28th January 2010 at 03:00 AM.. Reason: 1500 post synopsis...Don't tell me your gonna go read all of them!
..right now? Maybe. Do you REALLY think people won't go out of their way to come up with a new way?
There is no other way. Decentralized proxying via networks like Freenet, I2P, and Tor has been around for years and years. It is the end game of anonymizing technology, and it has unavoidable vulnerabilities.
No doubt, these types of services will increase in popularity among hardcore pirates. But by their nature of passing data off 4-6 times before it gets to you, they are much slower than direct P2P. And due to their anonymous nature, they tend to be havens for hardcore illegal kinds of material the general public has no desire or tolerance for.
And just like any copyright protection, they are all "crackable" should the need arise.
The answer is simple, until you go back a couple of pages and think about the complexities of the "moral high ground."
Really. I'm amazed.
It's slave labour (legally) to dodge paying your workers in a capitalist system, but it's greed and stubbornness when musicians demand the same employment conditions (providing they are employed of course).
Secondly, I very much understand 'entitlement' as a slur on our character, especially having spent time in the U.S.
It's a shame you chose to employ that accusation.
Finally, you really do need to address the them and us scenario.
'Us' are expected to find a new way of earning a living, because 'them' are illegally stealing our work and it's apparently too hard or too unpopular to demand the law upholds our rights.
'Them' are still the minority, and ordinary, decent musicians (us) still charge for their services, while a majority of ordinary and decent consumers still pay to consume it.
But who holds the moral high ground is 'complicated'?
I don't believe it... I hope you are right, but I completely doubt that these people won't come up with another way. They have at every step of the way so far.
Actually they haven't. To my knowledge there hasn't been any great innovation in P2P for years. Bit Torrent is 9 years old. Freenet is the same.
Since then? Just more empty threats from pirates who believe that because the law has turned a blind eye for years now, that makes them permanently entitled and invincible.
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
