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The Pirate Party....Why the anti-copyright movement are wrong
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bilbobaggins
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#1
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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The Pirate Party....Why the anti-copyright movement are wrong

File-sharing has been around for 20 years or so now. The Pirate Party would have us believe in an idylic world where ALL intellectual property is free. They talk arrogantly about it on their manifesto as something that will happen in the future. But why must we look into the future with rose tinted glasses. What about the present? Every song, nearly every film and a vast amount of cracked games/software are already 'free'. Are we living the dream the Pirate Party would have us believe in? Is there any evidence supporting their arguments that freedom of IP will actually help anyone in the future (bar maybe PirateBAy)?



1- One of the main arguments espoused by the anti-copyright movement is the one of
"Piracy Helps Promote Bands...... what they lose in mechanical sales/mp3 sales, they make up for in gig revenue."

Sure it does....Us musicians make a tonne from gigging don't we!
But do sites like MySpace not do the same job of allowing an artist to reach a larger audience?


2- "there is a tendency for Objective Quality to diminish"

Whilst all this file-sharing *may* all be very good for bands who can make their fortune by gigs and t-shirt sales alone....what about all those people in the background? The Engineers, Producers, the Specialist Equipment needed (which we on GS know only too well), the studio rental, promoters, publishing, pluggers, management, right down to the support staff...the guy who puts up the posters, etc etc.

Whilst its generally par for the course that the artist will suffer for their art.....all these people in the background will generally not.....
They accept hard cash as currency.

In software/film, it gets even worse.....there are many, many more people involved than with music. They do not have the 'advantage' of having gigs to play either. The coders, animators, technicians, camera-people, actors, rental of studio-space, taxes, cleaners, plumbers, electricians. These specialist people with specialist skills do not work for free.

Traditionally it was the music-buying-game-playing-film-going public who pays for these people. Under the 'everything is free' model who pays for these people?

So there is a tendency for the objective quality to diminish in correlation with reduced revenues.


2- Piracy, instead of freeing us from opportunism, actually promotes it.

One of the greatest lies ever put forth from the anti-copyright movement is the one of. "when everything is free, the simon cowells and pop-puppets of this world will disappear"

Simon Cowell couldn't care less about Piracy. In fact he is doing better than anyone else in the industry at the moment....Why?
His x-factor shows generate the vast majority of their money by way of selling text-messages and advertising slots....The money generated from single sales by the 'winning' artist pales in comparision.

In short..opportunism never goes away; it just follows the money.


3- Under the 'everything is free' model, there is also tendency for the most creative of people to be weeded out....

Whilst Piracy can never kill creativity, it can certainly stifle it.
If the investors follow the money to these opportunistic endeavours, then there is also the possibility that the very creative people who should be receiving financial backing will never get it....the money follows the less risky investments in lieu of the more creative, yet risky, projects.


4- If musicians/directors/game-houses are not going to make any money, why the hell should sites like Megavideo, Pirate Bay etc be making it?
I don't have the figures for Megavideo, but it was revealed at the PirateBay trials that the Swedish Wing alone of Pirate Bay generates $4,000,000 anually.
[note this is an estimate for the Swedish wing only; world-wide figures are unavailable-]
[note 2- there are many figures bandied around some as low as $1m, others as high as $9m but
TPB Raking in Millions — Industry Watch
gives a pretty good idea of figures involved as it quotes the actual advertising company that the Piratebay used at the time before the trials]

I understand that, the PirateBay/ Megavideo will have bandwidth costs etc, but $4,000,000 seems excessive....if anyone would care to speculate on how much bandwidth these sites use/cost...please do by all means.

Bilbo

Last edited by bilbobaggins; 28th July 2010 at 03:04 AM.. Reason: ~To take away my edit!
#2
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
Whilst all this file-sharing *may* all be very good for bands who can make their fortune by gigs and t-shirt sales alone....what about all those people in the background? The Engineers, Producers, the Specialist Equipment needed (which we on GS know only too well), the studio rental, promoters, publishing, pluggers, management, right down to the support staff...the guy who puts up the posters, etc etc.

Whilst its generally par for the course that the artist will suffer for their art.....all these people in the background will generally not.....
They accept hard cash as currency.

In software/film, it gets even worse.....there are many, many more people involved than with music. They do not have the 'advantage' of having gigs to play either. The coders, animators, technicians, camera-people, actors, rental of studio-space, taxes, cleaners, plumbers, electricians. These specialist people with specialist skills do not work for free.

Traditionally it was the music-buying-game-playing-film-going public who pays for these people. Under the 'everything is free' model who pays for these people?

So there is a tendency for the objective quality to diminish in correlation with reduced revenues.
I disagree vehemently with almost every word of your post but this section is one of the most ridiculous.

Why are any of those people guaranteed jobs?!?!

Markets change. Did you feel sorry for vinyl pressing plants when the world went to tape and little plastic disks?

But "traditionally", that is how music was delivered...shouldn't they have been guaranteed jobs?!?!

Did you feel sorry for the american car industry when they were selling suv's in a market that couldn't support them?

If these musicians can't make money in this market, that is THEIR PROBLEM...not anyone else's. The market changes, they can adapt or they can allow themselves to die.

Quote:
"I think records were just a little bubble through time and those who made a living from them for a while were lucky. There is no reason why anyone should have made so much money from selling records except that everything was right for this period of time..."

"It was a bit like if you had a source of whale blubber in the 1840s and it could be used as fuel. Before gas came along, if you traded in whale blubber, you were the richest man on Earth. Then gas came along and you'd be stuck with your whale blubber."

"Sorry mate – history's moving along. Recorded music equals whale blubber. Eventually, something else will replace it."

- Brian Eno in The Guardian On gospel, Abba and the death of the record: an audience with Brian Eno | Interview | Music | The Observer
Before recorded music, the "music industry" (which is a complete misnomer here that that the riaa has hijacked...) was selling sheet music to people that actually PLAYED it. They freaked out when the record player was invented.

Markets change.

Adapt.
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#3
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #3
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Cool I like Pirate Parties !!

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22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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People exploiting paradoxal currents in society to gain personal advantage in terms of money, power, influence or publicity ... there are tons of those who gained altitude by riding social waves and bubbles. Hitler did, Milošević did .. the list goes on and on. It's not right, and even if it is percieved as right it is still not sustainable, anybody who has brain tissue can figure that out ... but it's not a new tactic. Don't let them fool you into thinking they're actually 100% serious. Politics is generally hippocrazy, saying and seemingly doing one thing, while thinking and planning for almost the opposite.
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22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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bilbobaggins > what you're saying might be true from the viewpoint of the big shots in the music "industry".
But maybe 95% of the musicians in the world are not pros, they have a friend as a soundguy, they have day jobs to pay for the recording of their tracks, a bedroom operation label to do their promotion and to try and sell the 600 copies of the record, and when they tour, their only goal is to get by and not lose any money.
Why would those people care about the piracy problems of the record industry ?
#6
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AboveAndBelow View Post
bilbobaggins > what you're saying might be true from the viewpoint of the big shots in the music "industry".
But maybe 95% of the musicians in the world are not pros, they have a friend as a soundguy, they have day jobs to pay for the recording of their tracks, a bedroom operation label to do their promotion and to try and sell the 600 copies of the record, and when they tour, their only goal is to get by and not lose any money.
Why would those people care about the piracy problems of the record industry ?
In hopes of one day not having to work like that, and being compensated for their art? Not like piracy only affects large labels.
#7
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick_Money View Post
In hopes of one day not having to work like that, and being compensated for their art? Not like piracy only affects large labels.
Did the RIAA sponsor this post?

You are buying into their propaganda. It's a changing marketplace and they blame piracy which just isn't true.

And just so you know, people ARE still being compensated. See the itunes and amazon charts, for examples.
#8
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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You guys have it all wrong!

Everything should be FREE!

Except for what I make.




Yes?
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#9
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
File-sharing has been around for 20 years or so now. The Pirate Party would have us believe in an idylic world where ALL intellectual property is free. They talk arrogantly about it on their manifesto as something that will happen in the future. But why must we look into the future with rose tinted glasses. What about the present? Every song, nearly every film and a vast amount of cracked games/software are already 'free'. Are we living the dream the Pirate Party would have us believe in? Is there any evidence supporting their arguments that freedom of IP will actually help anyone in the future (bar maybe PirateBAy)?



1- One of the main arguments espoused by the anti-copyright movement is the one of
"Piracy Helps Promote Bands...... what they lose in mechanical sales/mp3 sales, they make up for in gig revenue."

Sure it does....Us musicians make a tonne from gigging don't we!
But do sites like MySpace not do the same job of allowing an artist to reach a larger audience?


2- "there is a tendency for Objective Quality to diminish"

Whilst all this file-sharing *may* all be very good for bands who can make their fortune by gigs and t-shirt sales alone....what about all those people in the background? The Engineers, Producers, the Specialist Equipment needed (which we on GS know only too well), the studio rental, promoters, publishing, pluggers, management, right down to the support staff...the guy who puts up the posters, etc etc.

Whilst its generally par for the course that the artist will suffer for their art.....all these people in the background will generally not.....
They accept hard cash as currency.

In software/film, it gets even worse.....there are many, many more people involved than with music. They do not have the 'advantage' of having gigs to play either. The coders, animators, technicians, camera-people, actors, rental of studio-space, taxes, cleaners, plumbers, electricians. These specialist people with specialist skills do not work for free.

Traditionally it was the music-buying-game-playing-film-going public who pays for these people. Under the 'everything is free' model who pays for these people?

So there is a tendency for the objective quality to diminish in correlation with reduced revenues.


2- Piracy, instead of freeing us from opportunism, actually promotes it.

One of the greatest lies ever put forth from the anti-copyright movement is the one of. "when everything is free, the simon cowells and pop-puppets of this world will disappear"

Simon Cowell couldn't care less about Piracy. In fact he is doing better than anyone else in the industry at the moment....Why?
His x-factor shows generate the vast majority of their money by way of selling text-messages and advertising slots....The money generated from single sales by the 'winning' artist pales in comparision. [don't have the exact source for this, I remember reading it not so long ago on one of the Irish Broadsheets....Times/Independent]

In short..opportunism never goes away; it just follows the money.


3- Under the 'everything is free' model, there is also tendency for the most creative of people to be weeded out....

Whilst Piracy can never kill creativity, it can certainly stifle it.
If the investors follow the money to these opportunistic endeavours, then there is also the possibility that the very creative people who should be receiving financial backing will never get it....the money follows the less risky investments in lieu of the more creative, yet risky, projects.


4- If musicians/directors/game-houses are not going to make any money, why the hell should sites like Megavideo, Pirate Bay etc be making it?
I don't have the figures for Megavideo, but it was revealed at the PirateBay trials that the Swedish Wing alone of Pirate Bay generates $4,000,000 anually.
[note this is an estimate for the Swedish wing only; world-wide figures are unavailable-]
[note 2- there are many figures bandied around some as low as $1m, others as high as $9m but
TPB Raking in Millions — Industry Watch
gives a pretty good idea of figures involved as it quotes the actual advertising company that the Piratebay used at the time before the trials]

I understand that, the PirateBay/ Megavideo will have bandwidth costs etc, but $4,000,000 seems excessive....if anyone would care to speculate on how much bandwidth these sites use/cost...please do by all means.

Bilbo


oh that old red herring.

WAKE THE FCUK UP
#10
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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But in all seriousness, musicianship and other forms of art will have a major drop in the next few decades due to other factors. First all, there are tons of people who listen to older forms of music. Almost everyone I know has at least one classical rock album for every modern album. People used to be buying more of what's new, now their revenues will drop over 50% from that alone (ok, maybe it's an over-generalization and the numbers won't figure out like that but I see a trend that's going like this).

If people keep on buying music that was recorded years ago, then there's less profit for those playing music today. Which is totally fine! There does not need to be sooo many albums coming out every single year!

Yes it will hurt those in the industry, but the industry needs to shrink and as a world we do have better things to be putting our man power towards. There is a shortage of people in my field, math. Come help us out. There is a shortage of actuarial scientists, statisticians, so-called "green" physicists.

There soooo many things in physics not understood and I find it ridiculous that there is so much less money invested there instead of entertainment.

The thing that made me come to this idea is this:

My friend put me up to watching a bunch of classic movies and listening to a bunch of classic albums (and concertos). Also read/watch the classic plays all the way back when until now. 90% of my entertainment time is now on those and there is more than enough to keep my free time busy for the rest of my life.

Go do math. I'm sorry musicians, but for the sake of our world, we need to be more productive. Make it a nice hobby, and maybe if you're good enough you'll be one of the few employed by it.

I'm sorry if I'm offending you or making your job seem useless, but I think if you really step back and look at the state of the world you'd agree there is a problem and we should be doing something other than making sad songs about it.
#11
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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All of us music creators have been getting emails from John Galt, who found us an awesome island filled with beer, groupies and a killer sound system. We'll be boarding wooden ships soon. We are leaving. You don't need us.
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#12
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Did the RIAA sponsor this post?

You are buying into their propaganda. It's a changing marketplace and they blame piracy which just isn't true.

And just so you know, people ARE still being compensated. See the itunes and amazon charts, for examples.

Haha, nope not sponsored, but if they are listening and want to toss me some cash for being reasonable! Not even sure what propagada you are talking about. Seems like a cop out of an argument to me. If you mean understanding that simply if someone takes (downloads) something they are not paying for, then someone loses out. I know this argument can go around and around but I do understand very elementary economics. Also yes people are selling records, but are they selling as many as they would is the question.

I'm not down with the ridicolus crack down of downloaders. I know the market is changing but if no one is selling anything where is the market?

Every time I hear this debate what personally comes to mind is all the the great small town indie labels of the 80s and 90s. This seems to be extremely dwindling these days. The majors don't even pop into my head (even though they should get payed also). Is it completely because of piracy, I doubt it, but sure it doesn't help. That is what I find kind of funny about the Pirate Party. They talk a big game about helping the little guy, but piracy affects all levels, not like people only steal from large labels.

XHipHop would be curious what your place is in the industry, to have such support for piracy? My personal take is from the view of a full time working professional in audio engineering. I still work as much as I can and am not really struggling so it's not a personal issue, just never understand why people stand up for something as simple as downloading something you did not pay for. I was taught this when I was 5. Maybe you are from a different area of work, ie producer, writer or who knows, that gives you a different view point. So what is your place in this that makes you stand up for piracy?
bilbobaggins
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#13
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Did the RIAA sponsor this post?
Nope

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
You are buying into their propaganda. It's a changing marketplace and they blame piracy which just isn't true.
Maybe it is you who are buying into the Pirate Parties' propaganda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
And just so you know, people ARE still being compensated. See the itunes and amazon charts, for examples.
really...What exactly is this "ITUNES" you talk of?


So can you tell me what benefits to mankind will we see when everything is free?
Why should these software engineers/musicians/directors/actors not be payed?

Have you seen the film Avatar at all?
Who will pay for these stunning effects films (or even the low budget films) when everything is free?
#14
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rackdude View Post
But in all seriousness, musicianship and other forms of art will have a major drop in the next few decades due to other factors. First all, there are tons of people who listen to older forms of music. Almost everyone I know has at least one classical rock album for every modern album. People used to be buying more of what's new, now their revenues will drop over 50% from that alone (ok, maybe it's an over-generalization and the numbers won't figure out like that but I see a trend that's going like this).

If people keep on buying music that was recorded years ago, then there's less profit for those playing music today. Which is totally fine! There does not need to be sooo many albums coming out every single year!

Yes it will hurt those in the industry, but the industry needs to shrink and as a world we do have better things to be putting our man power towards. There is a shortage of people in my field, math. Come help us out. There is a shortage of actuarial scientists, statisticians, so-called "green" physicists.

There soooo many things in physics not understood and I find it ridiculous that there is so much less money invested there instead of entertainment.

The thing that made me come to this idea is this:

My friend put me up to watching a bunch of classic movies and listening to a bunch of classic albums (and concertos). Also read/watch the classic plays all the way back when until now. 90% of my entertainment time is now on those and there is more than enough to keep my free time busy for the rest of my life.

Go do math. I'm sorry musicians, but for the sake of our world, we need to be more productive. Make it a nice hobby, and maybe if you're good enough you'll be one of the few employed by it.

I'm sorry if I'm offending you or making your job seem useless, but I think if you really step back and look at the state of the world you'd agree there is a problem and we should be doing something other than making sad songs about it.
I would have thought it was the opposite.
#15
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
Nope



Maybe it is you who are buying into the Pirate Parties' propaganda?



really...What exactly is this "ITUNES" you talk of?


So can you tell me what benefits to mankind will we see when everything is free?
Why should these software engineers/musicians/directors/actors not be payed?

Have you seen the film Avatar at all?
Who will pay for these stunning effects films (or even the low budget films) when everything is free?
dfegad
#16
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonsqueezer View Post
I would have thought it was the opposite.
When I say more productive, I mean read more, learn more, invent more, solve more, things that can move forward humanity. Yes, we should probably consume less, but it would also help if someone found ways to make things more energy efficient.

That's not to say new amazing things cannot be found in/from the arts, but there is an unnecessary over-saturation there.
#17
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick_Money View Post
Haha, nope not sponsored, but if they are listening and want to toss me some cash for being reasonable! Not even sure what propagada you are talking about. Seems like a cop out of an argument to me. If you mean understanding that simply if someone takes (downloads) something they are not paying for, then someone loses out. I know this argument can go around and around but I do understand very elementary economics. Also yes people are selling records, but are they selling as many as they would is the question.

I'm not down with the ridicolus crack down of downloaders. I know the market is changing but if no one is selling anything where is the market?

Every time I hear this debate what personally comes to mind is all the the great small town indie labels of the 80s and 90s. This seems to be extremely dwindling these days. The majors don't even pop into my head (even though they should get payed also). Is it completely because of piracy, I doubt it, but sure it doesn't help. That is what I find kind of funny about the Pirate Party. They talk a big game about helping the little guy, but piracy affects all levels, not like people only steal from large labels.

XHipHop would be curious what your place is in the industry, to have such support for piracy? My personal take is from the view of a full time working professional in audio engineering. I still work as much as I can and am not really struggling so it's not a personal issue, just never understand why people stand up for something as simple as downloading something you did not pay for. I was taught this when I was 5. Maybe you are from a different area of work, ie producer, writer or who knows, that gives you a different view point. So what is your place in this that makes you stand up for piracy?
I'm a realist. Standing up for piracy? I'm standing up for people being realistic and not making false arguments/spreading propaganda.

As far as my place - 10 years ago i was in a band that put out 2 records (10,000 sold...nothing big) and toured. Then I made some money in some internet music startups (which no longer exist..cashed out at the right time). Then I had a studio for about 6 years where I recorded indie rock, hardcore, metal, etc (had a neotek elite and probably like $150 k in additional gear). Now I work freelance mostly providing services to a few post houses and I'm trying to put out my own music.

Nothing i said is standing up for piracy, though.

My main man lemonsqueezer can successfully show you that market has changed into a singles market, for starters. That is something EVERYONE is overlooking.

Labels haven't met the habits of consumers which also devalued music.

I'm just being REALISTIC.


"if someone takes (downloads) something they are not paying for, then someone loses out."

That is utter b*llshit. A downloaded song does not equal a lost sale and it can actually mean future sales. There really is no argument (but feel free to go round and round if you'd like).
#18
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
Nope



Maybe it is you who are buying into the Pirate Parties' propaganda?



really...What exactly is this "ITUNES" you talk of?


So can you tell me what benefits to mankind will we see when everything is free?
Why should these software engineers/musicians/directors/actors not be payed?

Have you seen the film Avatar at all?
Who will pay for these stunning effects films (or even the low budget films) when everything is free?
Avatar made a shitton of cash. Actually, the whole movie industry set record numbers in 2008 AND then BEAT them in 2009.

Your argument doesn't hold water.
bilbobaggins
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#19
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonsqueezer View Post
dfegad
Intellectual stance there Lemon... ...care to refute them?
#20
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick_Money View Post
Haha, nope not sponsored, but if they are listening and want to toss me some cash for being reasonable! Not even sure what propagada you are talking about. Seems like a cop out of an argument to me. If you mean understanding that simply if someone takes (downloads) something they are not paying for, then someone loses out. I know this argument can go around and around but I do understand very elementary economics. Also yes people are selling records, but are they selling as many as they would is the question.

I'm not down with the ridicolus crack down of downloaders. I know the market is changing but if no one is selling anything where is the market?
Don't waste your time on these guys. They don't have a clue between them and you will end up having a stroke trying to reason with them. Do yourself a favor and ignore list them before it's too late.
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#21
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Avatar made a shitton of cash. Actually, the whole movie industry set record numbers in 2008 AND then BEAT them in 2009.

Your argument doesn't hold water.

There has been a 20% drop in original films between '08 & '09
09' was also the first year in history that either re-makes or sequels have featured in 7 of the highest grossing films......The film-houses are getting scared.....They are reacting the only way they can.....re-releases/sequels at the expense of original content....

So what benefit to mankind will we see when everything is free?
#22
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #22
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The Pirate Party | Piratpartiet

Quote:
The monopoly for the copyright holder to exploit an aesthetic work commercially should be limited to five years after publication. Today's copyright terms are simply absurd. Nobody needs to make money seventy years after he is dead. No film studio or record company bases its investment decisions on the off-chance that the product would be of interest to anyone a hundred years in the future. The commercial life of cultural works is staggeringly short in today's world. If you haven't made your money back in the first one or two years, you never will. A five years copyright term for commercial use is more than enough. Non-commercial use should be free from day one.
So were did you see a manifesto stating that they wanted "ALL intellectual property" to be free ?
#23
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #23
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Originally Posted by AboveAndBelow View Post
The Pirate Party | Piratpartiet

So were did you see a manifesto stating that they wanted "ALL intellectual property" to be free ?
Where do you see any evidence that their 'manifesto' has any meaning at all. We all know that the bulk of stuff being ripped off would not even be out of copyright if it was five years. So that whole statement is meaningless in terms of the realities on the ground. No matter what the term is, it won't matter to people just looking to get stuff for free.

As the their statement that 75 years is some kind of sign of incredible greed, that's just self serving silliness. If it has no worth after five years, then it is of NO CULTURAL VALUE, and therefore the purpose of copyright, which is to encourage works of lasting cultural value, is meaningless and to argue that it should be free now is silly. These are works created solely as a business, they are not The Scarlet Letter or anything. If something does have lasting cultural value, it will be worth something for longer than five years. And the people who want it for free don't want it because it's going to 'enrich their lives', they just want it to be free.

The whole argument is economically ******** and pathetically easy to make when you are the one who is going to get the free ride off of the IP creator's work.
#24
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #24
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Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
There has been a 20% drop in original films between '08 & '09
09' was also the first year in history that either re-makes or sequels have featured in 7 of the highest grossing films......The film-houses are getting scared.....They are reacting the only way they can.....re-releases/sequels at the expense of original content....

So what benefit to mankind will we see when everything is free?
Wolverine was leaked 3 months early and STILL beat expectations.

Sorry.


And you are proving my point with the rest of your infomation. The market changes and you adjust.

That's why the movie industry also paid to put 3D projectors in so many theaters.
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#25
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #25
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Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
Wolverine was leaked 3 months early and STILL beat expectations.

Sorry.


And you are proving my point with the rest of your infomation. The market changes and you adjust.

That's why the movie industry also paid to put 3D projectors in so many theaters.
Again your evading all of the questions/arguments I put forth.....I've no doubt that the industry has changed and they need to adapt....

But for the third time..what benefit to mankind will we see when everything is free?
#26
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Originally Posted by bilbobaggins View Post
Again your evading all of the questions/arguments I put forth.....I've no doubt that the industry has changed and they need to adapt....

But for the third time..what benefit to mankind will we see when everything is free?
The question doesn't make sense to me because "everything" isn't free. That's why i haven't answered it. Nor will "everything" be free.

But maybe this Harvard study will quench some of your curiosity?

Harvard Study Finds Weaker Copyright Protection Has Benefited Society

But yeah, horrible question. Sorry. It doesn't make sense.
#27
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #27
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Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
I'm a realist. Standing up for piracy? I'm standing up for people being realistic and not making false arguments/spreading propaganda.

As far as my place - 10 years ago i was in a band that put out 2 records (10,000 sold...nothing big) and toured. Then I made some money in some internet music startups (which no longer exist..cashed out at the right time). Then I had a studio for about 6 years where I recorded indie rock, hardcore, metal, etc (had a neotek elite and probably like $150 k in additional gear). Now I work freelance mostly providing services to a few post houses and I'm trying to put out my own music.

Nothing i said is standing up for piracy, though.

My main man lemonsqueezer can successfully show you that market has changed into a singles market, for starters. That is something EVERYONE is overlooking.

Labels haven't met the habits of consumers which also devalued music.

I'm just being REALISTIC.


"if someone takes (downloads) something they are not paying for, then someone loses out."

That is utter b*llshit. A downloaded song does not equal a lost sale and it can actually mean future sales. There really is no argument (but feel free to go round and round if you'd like).
Cool understand your stance better now. My reasoning that you were "standing" up for piracy, was what seemed to be your objection to my very simple first comment.

Onto the singles market statement. I agree, but also have been hearing that stament and seeing statistics about this for a little under 30 years (basically early 80s). Remember the singles section in old cassette stores? Shoot I can remember in the early 90s, at the big box stores (walmart, etc) they didn't really stock anything but singles. Also this has nothing to do with my simple statement and belief of if you download something without permission or paying for it, you are in the wrong.

Also agree with your statement that it is not a 1:1 ratio, with downloading taking sales. At the same point if a band wants to give away a song for promotion, that is their choice not the person downloading. Also I find this argument very weak these days, since there is so many places to hear some ones music to check it out, other then downloading.

I think it would be very hard to weigh the amount of damage or lack of, downloading has had, it's all shady math. I think it's more of a personal thing and very simple. If you download something that you do not have permission to have and did not pay for, you are in the wrong!
#28
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop View Post
The question doesn't make sense to me because "everything" isn't free. That's why i haven't answered it. Nor will "everything" be free.

But maybe this Harvard study will quench some of your curiosity?

Harvard Study Finds Weaker Copyright Protection Has Benefited Society

But yeah, horrible question. Sorry. It doesn't make sense.
There is a thread in the Music Business sub-section in which the stupidity of this study is pointed out in detail.
#29
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Don't waste your time on these guys. They don't have a clue between them and you will end up having a stroke trying to reason with them. Do yourself a favor and ignore list them before it's too late.
Haha I know Dean. I have seen these threads before and know where they go, just sometimes you just can't help yourself. ha It's like trying to reason with a 3 year old why they shouldn't take their sisters sucker.


Now trying to slowly back out of the room!
#30
22nd January 2010
Old 22nd January 2010
  #30
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Originally Posted by Dick_Money View Post
If you download something that you do not have permission to have and did not pay for, you are in the wrong!
It's ok for you to believe that, but the reality is that there is that the whole next generation of consumers are growing up seeing this issue very differently.

So we can be realistic about that and adapt or...? Well there is no logical "or" option. That's what has to be done.

It's really not that difficult or scary though and the overall "music industry" is actually doing fine. Recorded music will make less revenue...but everything is going to be ok.

Just please stop listening to the RIAA and their manipulations. It's lunacy.
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