I started building a small studio

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by therealtaxman

Hi Eduardo! nice pictures of the construction and is great that you are actually do it yourself ..can you post more from the 2nd layer of the floor..and the walls..etc..it´d be alot of help cuz i´m gonna be in the same situation soon ...see u man!! have a nice day

I didn't do it all myself, actually I just did myself a small part like:
the floor structure, and layers
caulked a lot
practically all rockwool placement
passing through electrical cables
passing through and installing all audio cables
mounting all furniture
etc...

I had to control everything, because it was very easy for someone to make a fatal mistake.

The 2nd layer, was exactly done as the 1st and 3rd layer except that it was a different material. So it was (counting from outside to inside):
Floor: 19mm plywood, 15mm GB, 19mm Plywood
Walls: 15mm GB, 19mm Particle Board, 15mm GB
Ceiling: 15mm GB, 19mm Plywood, 15mm GB

If you want to know any particular detail of something on the 2nd layer, let me know and I will try to get pics of it.

Originally Posted by Atleast

Marcelo rocks! Tenho a certeza que vais resolver o teu problema, mereces e muito! Abraço de Lisboa.

O Marcelo é o Marcelo!!
Grande Homem!!

Abraço do Algarve!!

Originally Posted by talontsiawd

Amazing. I was just trying to find inspiration for buying a new desk and read through this whole thread. I actually am most inspired by your drive to continue to try to get everything right, rather than work in a room you are not happy with or take any shortcuts.

I'm happy that I inspired someone
I'm known for being a perfectionist, it's one of my greatest attributes and one of my biggest flaws

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by El Nino

Your studio looks amazing Eduardo. Without a doubt inspiring. It kills me to see the studio taken apart though. After reading this thread I felt like I had gone through an emotional roller coaster. Being a musician and engineer also, I truly admire your dedication.

I sing for a little band called ILL NINO. We'll be in Europe for doing the summer festivals in 2010. I'd love to bring the guys by the studio if we are routed through Portugal.

Thanks for the compliments.

"little" band called Ill Nino? That's a "big" joke
If Ill Nino is little I only know micro bands

I've seen you guys in Portugal twice.
In the first Portuguese Ozzfest and on the Road Rage Tour.
These were a lot of years ago.

If you come to Portugal, it would be a pleasure to have you guys visit the studio.

[Mixbuster]

Holy CRAP! Is that the same studio? WOW.
It looks amazing! Good work, and I hope for your sake that you enjoy beein' in those rooms cus I def. would.

[EduardoApolonia]

No no no...

Those aren't my rooms, I wish they were

These are just studios that Marcelo Tavares, the Portuguese consultant who is helping me too, has designed.

[Mixbuster]

Originally Posted by EduardoApolonia

No no no...

Those aren't my rooms, I wish they were

These are just studios that Marcelo Tavares, the Portuguese consultant who is helping me too, has designed.

Ah, ok, my mistake :D But they look amazing.

[David-Morpheus]

Yo Eddy,

any progress with the tuning process ? Did you already found and implemented a solution?

Just be patient it's a b*tchi thing to tune a room

david

[EduardoApolonia]

Hi David,

I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel

It's almost certain that from a lot of things that are causing the problem(s) the control room has, the biggest culprit is the ceiling height.
It's the room mode created by the ceiling height added to the SBIR created by the ceiling height too.

I'll post more info soon

[David-Morpheus]

Originally Posted by EduardoApolonia

Hi David,

I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel

It's almost certain that from a lot of things that are causing the problem(s) the control room has, the biggest culprit is the ceiling height.
It's the room mode created by the ceiling height added to the SBIR created by the ceiling height too.

I'll post more info soon

try to build an angled ceiling absorber similar mine - should fix the room ratios and it will lover the decay times as well. Btw - do you have any RT60 measurements - I am curious what's the decay in your control room.

[JP Friesen]

I appreciate all the work you've done to bring us along as you have created this labor of love. Someone asked about your windows a while back. Just for reference I have them in my home here. In Canada they are made by EuroLine - Home and are amazing. Also by the way you hit the slutty out of the park they fit right in. Solid enough that they may pass as iso doors.
All the best as you sort out your problems. Bummer the designer hasn't stepped up. Doesn't speak well for their pride in performance. How does the tracking room sound in comparison?
JP

[Famous Audio]

ahh man This thread is total eye candy thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

[GBeats]

This is one of my favorite threads on GS! Kinda feels like I should hurry and click to another window when my wife comes around though. It feels just as wrong as surfing pornog!

[Syncamorea]

Originally Posted by GBeats

This is one of my favorite threads on GS! Kinda feels like I should hurry and click to another window when my wife comes around though. It feels just as wrong as surfing pornog!

Hmmm. My wife has followed this thread with me. And she likes it!

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by morpheuzrecords

try to build an angled ceiling absorber similar mine - should fix the room ratios and it will lover the decay times as well. Btw - do you have any RT60 measurements - I am curious what's the decay in your control room.

Thanks very much for the suggestion, I was already working on that possibility
Everytime I figure out a new possible cause I start working immediately on the possible solution.

Do you have any plans or pics on the ceiling absorber you did on your studio?

The RT60 graphs I have are from Fuzzmeasure and I don't trust them much, but I can say that it is around 250ms

Originally Posted by JP Friesen

All the best as you sort out your problems. Bummer the designer hasn't stepped up. Doesn't speak well for their pride in performance. How does the tracking room sound in comparison?
JP

The Designer has stepped up but the communication hasn't been easy.
I think that the fact that my room is a really challenging to get corrected is not helping much.
The tracking room sounds good, althought it's not a big room with a high ceiling

Originally Posted by Famous Audio

ahh man This thread is total eye candy thumbsup

Originally Posted by GBeats

This is one of my favorite threads on GS! Kinda feels like I should hurry and click to another window when my wife comes around though. It feels just as wrong as surfing pornog!

Thanks for the comparison

Originally Posted by Syncamorea

Hmmm. My wife has followed this thread with me. And she likes it!

My wife as followed the construction in person and she likes it!!

[David-Morpheus]

Originally Posted by EduardoApolonia

Thanks very much for the suggestion, I was already working on that possibility
Everytime I figure out a new possible cause I start working immediately on the possible solution.

Do you have any plans or pics on the ceiling absorber you did on your studio?

The RT60 graphs I have are from Fuzzmeasure and I don't trust them much, but I can say that it is around 250ms

There are some pics in my build thread but I can send you some more detailed shots and description via email. Basically the whole ceiling is a huge broadband absorber divided to 2 sections - the rear section consists of 8 "boxes" of 75x75 centimeters with varrying depth and insulation amount. The front section is angled down and has 2 layers of insulation - the first layer is horrizontal to the ceiling and suspended 10 cm from the ceiling while the second layer is inserted in the studs. Hope I explained it well

I am sure you will nail the room Eddy good luck again !!!

[EduardoApolonia]

Finally some updates on the process.
This is going to be long, I've been on this process for 4 months now.

These graphs are only a small selection of the measurements I did in the past 4 months.

I did more than 300 different measurements!!!!!

As you can see the 100-130Hz dip is always there, sometimes wider some times narrower but it's always there

















I'll continue on next post...

[EduardoApolonia]

The Portuguese Adam distributor Audiolog lent me a pair of S3X-H and S4X-H to try. I'm going to replace my Barefoots.
I have to express my gratitude to the excellent customer service Audiolog as served to me. I have these 2 pairs with me for almost 2 months now!!!
I hoped that the problem would be solved by the time I got the Adams but it didn't happen, and the distributor has let me keep the Adams in the meanwhile.

I don't usually do publicity to distributors/dealers, but when a service like this is given I can't let it pass without giving it's recognition.
Audiolog


Back to measurements:

So I changed to the Adams S4X-H.

These are the monitors I used for the measurements, they're in different positions. I left them like this on purpose to check how they would react differently.
The left one is completely outside the Basstrap and the Basstrap has 9cm Rockwool panels 70Kg/m3 panels installed behind the monitor. Behind the panels, there is also low density rockwool filling 1/2 of the Basstrap.
The right one is inside the Basstrap space but it doesn't fit all inside, so part of it is outside the Basstrap line





Back Basstrap before I placed any Rockwool packs inside
It is currently with 9cm of Rockwool 70Kg/m3 panels but no low density behind.



Rockwool panels packs placed on the back.




Left Monitor
Red Line - Before Rockwool packs
Green Line - After Rockwool packs




Right Monitor
Red Line - Before Rockwool packs
Green Line - After Rockwool packs



The difference is not much as I expected, this is a monstrous basstrap, and the dip is still there.


I made the test again but this time with the packs opened, and reaching the ceiling. It didn't made so much of a difference comparing with the packs unopen




Just a reminder that the monitors are in different positions:
The left one is completely outside the Basstrap and the Basstrap has 9cm Rockwool panels 70Kg/m3 panels installed behind the monitor. Behind the panels, there is also low density rockwool filling 1/2 of the Basstrap.
The right one is inside the Basstrap space but it doesn't fit all inside, so part of it is outside the Basstrap line


Left Monitor
Red Line - Before Rockwool packs
Green Line - After Rockwool packs




Right Monitor
Red Line - Before Rockwool packs
Green Line - After Rockwool packs

[EduardoApolonia]

Another test I did before:

I made a test dragging one rockwool stack to the side. I didn't took any pic so I photoshopped one of the pics for you to have an idea of what I did.




These were the measurements:


Left Monitor
Red Line - Rockwool piles centered in the room
Green Line - Right Rockwool pile moved to the right next to door
(didn't made much difference)





Right Monitor
Red Line - Rockwool piles centered in the room
Green Line - Right Rockwool pile moved to the right next to door




More to come...

[x99]

Hey Eduardo,

Are all these measurements with the same speakers? ie the Adams.

Any reason for ditching the Barefoots?

[elmolemon]

Wow, you're right! This IS is a monstrous basstrap!
But why are treating the backwall this intensive? If i remember right you mentioned somewhere in this thread, that there were problems with the distance of the speakers to the back-/sidewalls and the ceiling.
Maybe you should try to add treatment there or try to go for tuned acoustic treatment to kill this dip.
I was really sorry to read that you're having problems with your acoustics, as i really loved seeing this studio-build progress.

[judah]

Originally Posted by elmolemon

Wow, you're right! This IS is a monstrous basstrap!
But why are treating the backwall this intensive? If i remember right you mentioned somewhere in this thread, that there were problems with the distance of the speakers to the back-/sidewalls and the ceiling.
Maybe you should try to add treatment there or try to go for tuned acoustic treatment to kill this dip.
I was really sorry to read that you're having problems with your acoustics, as i really loved seeing this studio-build progress.

Exactly what I was thinking. You mentioned that SBIR seemed to be the main problem with your 100andsomething dip.

If I were you I'd try and built a front wall instead of the huge bass traps and flush mount the monitors. Expensive? Yeah, but you look very focused on sorting this issue out so...

Good luck.

[Andre Toscano]

Originally Posted by EduardoApolonia

The Portuguese Adam distributor Audiolog lent me a pair of S3X-H and S4X-H to try. I'm going to replace my Barefoots.
I have to express my gratitude to the excellent customer service Audiolog as served to me. I have these 2 pairs with me for almost 2 months now!!!
I hoped that the problem would be solved by the time I got the Adams but it didn't happen, and the distributor has let me keep the Adams in the meanwhile.

I don't usually do publicity to distributors/dealers, but when a service like this is given I can't let it pass without giving it's recognition.
Audiolog

Thanks for the kind words, Eduardo.
Always glad to help.

Best regards and good luck with the studio construction.

Andre' Toscano
Audiolog, Lda

[0bazooka_joe0]

I know you'll probably overlook what I'm saying purely based on my post level and I know I am not an acoustic engineer in anyway but I've been told by a very reliable source (an unnamed studio contractor) that when working with batt insulation it is best not to cram it into whatever container/cavity you are using. It is best to put it in "gently" as if you were putting it in your walls. if you smush up your insulation then it cant do its job properly... which to my understanding is to convert sound energy into heat energy. Anyway... food for thought, i really hope you can resolve your nasty dip.

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by x99

Hey Eduardo,

Are all these measurements with the same speakers? ie the Adams.

Most of these readings were made with the Barefoots, although there are readings done with the Adams S3X-H and S4X-H and probably with my old S3-As

Originally Posted by x99

Any reason for ditching the Barefoots?

It could be from the interaction with my room but I don't like the way the Barefoots sound in the mid lows (kind of compressed) and on the lows (too soft/slow), mids and highs sound very good to me.

Originally Posted by elmolemon

Wow, you're right! This IS is a monstrous basstrap!
But why are treating the backwall this intensive? If i remember right you mentioned somewhere in this thread, that there were problems with the distance of the speakers to the back-/sidewalls and the ceiling.
Maybe you should try to add treatment there or try to go for tuned acoustic treatment to kill this dip.
I was really sorry to read that you're having problems with your acoustics, as i really loved seeing this studio-build progress.

Although having almost sure that SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interferense Response) was the biggest problem here Martin Pilchner suggested I did this monstrous basstrap mock up to check if there was any tendency or not to help with the problem, so that we could move on being sure that the problem wasn't in the back.
Also, some of my earlier posts can contain conclusions of tests which I'm only posting now info of.

Originally Posted by judah

Exactly what I was thinking. You mentioned that SBIR seemed to be the main problem with your 100andsomething dip.

See my answer above for answer about the SBIR and building the basstrap mock up

Originally Posted by judah

If I were you I'd try and built a front wall instead of the huge bass traps and flush mount the monitors. Expensive? Yeah, but you look very focused on sorting this issue out so...

Good luck.

I'm already working on it (at least in paper)

Originally Posted by Andre Toscano

Thanks for the kind words, Eduardo.
Always glad to help.

Best regards and good luck with the studio construction.

Andre' Toscano
Audiolog, Lda

I'm the one who thanks you!!

Originally Posted by 0bazooka_joe0

I know you'll probably overlook what I'm saying purely based on my post level and I know I am not an acoustic engineer in anyway but I've been told by a very reliable source (an unnamed studio contractor) that when working with batt insulation it is best not to cram it into whatever container/cavity you are using. It is best to put it in "gently" as if you were putting it in your walls. if you smush up your insulation then it cant do its job properly... which to my understanding is to convert sound energy into heat energy. Anyway... food for thought, i really hope you can resolve your nasty dip.

Thanks for the info. thumbsup
For what I've read, and I don't mean in anyway to contradict your reliable source that has a lot more knowledge than me on this, but I think that if the batt insulation is too loose it won't be very effective because of sound waves passing through airspace.
Also, I don't know, but maybe compressing the batt insulation will increase the insulation average density, just a quick thought I'm doing about it.
I'm also not sure but I think that the different densities of the rockwool panels are created by the degree of compression of the wool.

Anyway I have measurements where I had the Rockwool panels on the basstrap, then did different measurements:
cavity completely filled with batt insulation,
filled in the corner,
half filled
empty
the differences were small in terms of the dip, but would help (a little) in controlling the energy inside the room.


Thanks to all who are participating with ideas, all of them are very welcome.

I'll post more info shortly because I'm already more ahead of what I posted earlier...

[judah]

If you want to get a grasp about flush mounting get the Philip Newell book "Recording Studio Design". A very worthy reading....

Keep up Eduardo...

[EduardoApolonia]

Thanks for the tip
Actually I already own that book and 5 or 6 more about acoustics
I'll let the flush mounting plan to the acoustical consultants

[EduardoApolonia]

Outside test to check monitor and mic flatness:

This was the result:




It was done like this but at 1mt (In this pic the mic is at 3mt)




I did more tests with the rockwool on the sides.
I only put it on top of the racks but I think that it was enough to see that it wasn't doing much, 1 or 2 dBs in some areas as you can see on the graphic below

Left Monitor
Green Line - Without Rockwool on top of the racks
Blue Line - With Rockwool on top of the racks



Here you can see the rockwool on top of the racks, you can also see that by this time I have rockwool practically around all walls.
And the dip is still there.

[EduardoApolonia]

I didn't try with the rockwool closer to the mic in front of the racks, because there was something that changed in the meantime that really did a big difference.
I have 2 pairs of Adam monitors that were lent to me to try: S3X-H and S4X-H.
The last measurements I did were with the S4s, but since they're heavy for me to move around by myself, a friend of mine helped me and I replaced one of the S4s for an S3.


Now the good news:
At this point was when I started to see the the light at the end of the tunnel!!!!

When I started the measurements it caught my attention that there was a big difference on the right side where I replaced the S4 for the S3.
The difference couldn't be just the monitor, so I saw that the front of the S3 was a little more to the back, since the monitor is less deep than the S4 it was pushed to the back as possible, but more importantly the S3 was lower than the S4 and that made a lot of difference.

So I measured varying the height of the monitor and that gave a lot of different results.


Orange line - Base of the monitor 89cm
Red line - Base of the monitor 106cm
Green line - Base of the monitor 123cm
Blue line - Base of the monitor 140cm




Pic of monitor inside the basstrap at 89cm (base) (Orange Line)




Pic of monitor inside the basstrap at 140cm (base) (Blue Line)





Then I did the same height variation but with the monitor outside the basstrap and went a little higher:


Orange Line - Base of the monitor 89cm
Red line - Base of the monitor 106cm
Green line - Base of the monitor 123cm
Blue line - Base of the monitor 140cm
Black line - Base of the monitor 157cm




Pic of monitor outside the basstrap at 89cm (base) (Orange Line)




Pic of monitor outside the basstrap at 157cm (base) (Black Line)





Then with the monitor outside the basstrap and at this height I varied the distance of the monitor to the Listening position.

Black line - Just outside the Basstrap
Red line - 15cm closer to the Listening position
Orange line - 30 cm closer to the listening position.





I think that all this info is starting to show that SBIR is the biggest problem, caused mainly by the distance from the ceiling/floor then adding the distances from front and side walls.

More to come...

[Yiannis]

Just a thought, but have you take any measurements with the speaker more to the middle?


Ps : man thats a lot of rockwool!!

[locutus]

This all really looks to me like you are battling a vertical room mode, influenced by the monitor height. I haven't seen you do much experimentation with vertical modes, only horizontal (front, back, sides).

I haven't noticed you mention the ceiling height dimension, but I would guess it is in the problem area based on guessing from the pictures and wavelengths.

It also doesn't appear to me that the ceiling bass trapping treatment is nearly to the level of the front/rear/sides. What happens if you put your massive bass trap on the floor in front of the console around the monitor stands?

[Vanaha]

Originally Posted by locutus

What happens if you put your massive bass trap on the floor in front of the console around the monitor stands?

I was thinking about that, too. Eduardo, what happens if you put some more absorbion on the floor and ceiling? Some traps above the speakers and maybe on the floor, just in the front of the speakers.

Good luck with the project!