I started building a small studio

[EduardoApolonia]

Right now I'm in the middle of correcting my Control Room problem.

I'll post more info on it later.

The studio isn't looking very good at the moment

[Tonio Ruiz]

Hi Eduardo

you'll be up and running in no time, you did an amazing and inspiring job there mate... do not worry!!!

Cheers from Mexico

[lildrummerboy70]

What is the control room problem? Did I miss it from a previous post? Great looking space bro.

[mikahanau]

he talk about the Problems here:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4481134-post518.html



But another question.
How do you fix it?
tuned pannels? helmholtzresonator?

cheers
Mika

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by lildrummerboy70

What is the control room problem? Did I miss it from a previous post? Great looking space bro.

You can see the problem here:

Green - Left channel
Red - Right channel



Although this is better already than what I had.

Originally Posted by mikahanau

How do you fix it?
tuned pannels? helmholtzresonator?

cheers
Mika

I haven't got the final solution yet, just some ideas of what has to be done, I'm still in the process of diagnosing what's happening.
I'm doing a lot of testing so that I know for sure what has to be done.

[snokdogg]

Originally Posted by EduardoApolonia

Some good music for a good work

YES! YES!! YES!!!

[David-Morpheus]

Hi Eddy,

good luck with that CR, getting the acoustics right is a bitchy thing.
Hope you'll be up and running in no time

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by Tonio Ruiz

Hi Eduardo

you'll be up and running in no time, you did an amazing and inspiring job there mate... do not worry!!!

Cheers from Mexico

Originally Posted by morpheuzrecords

Hi Eddy,

good luck with that CR, getting the acoustics right is a bitchy thing.
Hope you'll be up and running in no time

Thanks guys.
I hope so
It's not looking easy.

[genelec79]

It is really said,after all work and money to see that kind of frequency response. I really wish best luck! Cheers from Modrica!

[LeMauce]

I just seeing a picture of your ctrl-room with the Adams on there "top" side posed on the desk. Did you ever consider to turn the "ribbon"tweeters 90degrees? Or you already sold those and stick with the Barefoots?
And good luck finding your problem men. Good acoustics can be a bitch sometimes.

[Sonic_X]

Originally Posted by EduardoApolonia

Cavity of basstrap filled with Rockwool batt insulation

Hey bro GREAT topic
Hope you gonna fix that LF problem soon, best of luck to you!

One qestion if you don't mind: where did you get the Rockwool batt insulation from?

Thank you!
Nice evening^^

[EduardoApolonia]

If I remember well it was low density Rockwool in rolls.
I'll try to see if I have any pic of it.

[EduardoApolonia]

Here are some random pics of what I've been doing lately in terms of measurements.
I'm almost done with it.


Front left side rockwool panels taken out




Measuring Barefoot and Adam, some batt insulation taken out.




Measuring Barefoot at a different height. It was inclined but doesn't show in this pic.




Rockwool panels back in, Argosy console shelfs were taken out to test difference caused by reflections




Rockwool panels on the right side taken out.




Some batt insulation was taken out




Testing Adams (one of a time) with different basstrap configuration for left and right




I had to disconnect the Patchbay DB25 cables on the back to take the rack out to slide the console to the back (I'm glad that I bought a patch bay with DB25 connectors on the back )




Measuring Barefoot with different Rockwool panels configuration.




The same with the Adam

[EduardoApolonia]

More pics:

Moved the console to the back of the room to check the direct influence in terms of reflections




Installed MDF 12mm panels on the front side basstraps.




Original Basstrap setup, without fabric.




Took the first layer of 6cm 70m3 Rockwool out.
This shot shows also a MDF panel on the middle.




12mm MDF panels screwed on the front of the Basstrap.




Back Basstrap completely empty




Barefoot inside the front basstrap




Adam inside the front basstrap




Front basstrap sides completely empty




Barefoots in place with the front basstrap sides completely empty

[Colonel Blues]

Woow… seems to be a looooonng way to tune that room !

[dregen77]

Two things:

1- Amazing thread, amazing studio, amazing gear, amazing dogs (sorry for the loss!)... amazing vibe! Thanks for sharing it in this forum!

2- Breaks my heart to see everything torn upside down again after it was all ready to go. Hang in there, man!

METAL UP YOUR ASS!

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by Colonel Blues

Woow… seems to be a looooonng way to tune that room !

It really is!!!

Originally Posted by dregen77

Two things:

1- Amazing thread, amazing studio, amazing gear, amazing dogs (sorry for the loss!)... amazing vibe! Thanks for sharing it in this forum!

Originally Posted by dregen77

2- Breaks my heart to see everything torn upside down again after it was all ready to go. Hang in there, man!

METAL UP YOUR ASS!

Thanks!!

[EduardoApolonia]

Update on the room problem diagnostic:


One of the worst problems I have is caused by the speaker placement. The problem is what is called SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response) or Allison Effect.
The first person to make me aware of this effect was Barry Ober from Soundoctor - Home, I contacted him because of the JL Audio Subwoofers and he made some huge comments about my problem, and possible fixes, and also sent me a test cd. He did all this and I didn't buy him anything.
Excellent service!!!!

This SBIR is caused by the distance (1/4 wave length) from the woofer to the near walls, ceiling and floor.
You can read about it in this RPG pdf
http://www.rpginc.com/news/library/PS_AcD.pdf
and on the GIK website:
Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).

In my case the distances from the back wall, side wall and ceiling from the woofer are almost the same, one of the measurements I did was a scary coincidence, the measurements showed differences of this 3 points of only 2cm!!!! as you can see in these pics:






84cm is 1/4 length of 102Hz.
That is +/- where I have the dip.

Then the length of my room creates a dip mode of around 105Hz if I remember well.
The width of the back of the control room creates a dip mode at 107Hz

The crossover of the sub to the mids woofers in the Barefoots is at 110Hz.

So it's a hand full of bad coincidences.

I'll keep this updated for more diagnosed problems and the possible solutions

[Anselmo]

Wow! you´re really having to put some serious effort into fixing this problem...

hope you get it the way you´re happy with it soon! thumbsup

[judah]

Originally Posted by EduardoApolonia

Right now I'm in the middle of correcting my Control Room problem.

I'll post more info on it later.

That is very sad to hear. After payin' (I suppose) premium money to an established firm you ended up with such huge problems in your control room? Sad.

I see you're tryin' to correct'em with your usual attention to details, hat off to you.

On the same note, can you please tell me (or us) if you're happy with the isolation between the two rooms? I mean, when the drummer's pounding away can you hear it in the control room or is it very very faint? I'd like to know if the floating wood floor is doin' any good or not.

Thanks and good luck with your new project.

PS: that Avocet you're selling is oh so tempting, gotta restrain myself...

[G Davis]

in your case, is the designer helping with any of these corrections?

[judah]

Originally Posted by glee

in your case, is the designer helping with any of these corrections?

Yeah, good question...

[ruidostudios]

Hi Eduardo, I have just read all this magnificient thread, and really hope you can fix your acoustics as soon as possible, because you really deserve all the success with this great work.
Just a -perhaps a bit naive or even stupid- question: do you know if there is any possibility of fixing that lo freq gap with some monitor hardware/software such as the Genelec DSP correction system also used by new Tannoy, Focal speakers, etc or even the P.A. oriented SIM or SMAART?
I guess it's not the best solution after so long work, but it's a pity seeing all your walls being removed.
Keep fighting, you have teached a lot and have been very generous allowing all of us to learn from your experience. This is the way Sound Engineering can progress.

BTW I am beginning to build a medium-sized studio very near form you, at Leon (Spain). A bit frightened, but encouraged by your motivation.

Muito obrigado.

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by judah

can you please tell me (or us) if you're happy with the isolation between the two rooms? I mean, when the drummer's pounding away can you hear it in the control room or is it very very faint? I'd like to know if the floating wood floor

It is very faint, although if I did it today I would do the isolation with blocks filled with sand, here in Portugal it would be cheaper than what I did (2 layers GB + 1 layerParticle board+rockwool) and would be more effective.

Originally Posted by glee

in your case, is the designer helping with any of these corrections?

He is, but not as much as I would like.
Communication has been at a very slow pace for a year now.
Although I know that I'm just a insignificant customer for him, so I was expecting way less help than what I have been getting.

So I got a portuguese studio designer to help me on this too.
BTW, he has designed some great studios like these:

EP Produções
O Ganho do Som

So I'm having help from several places. And it's not been easy.
I'm still not sure what is the real problem in my room.
It's really strange, I'm starting to think that the problem could be some kind of resonance or absorption from the floor, walls or ceiling that is causing this hole.
It is present everytime even if the monitors are on the back of the room or on the side.

[Sonic_X]

Originally Posted by EduardoApolonia

It is very faint, although if I did it today I would do the isolation with blocks filled with sand, here in Portugal it would be cheaper than what I did (2 layers GB + 1 layerParticle board+rockwool) and would be more effective.

Could you link us to those blocks filled with sand please, i'm sure many dudes who reading that would appreciate it -> Danke^^

[EduardoApolonia]

Originally Posted by ruidostudios

Hi Eduardo, I have just read all this magnificient thread, and really hope you can fix your acoustics as soon as possible, because you really deserve all the success with this great work.
Just a -perhaps a bit naive or even stupid- question: do you know if there is any possibility of fixing that lo freq gap with some monitor hardware/software such as the Genelec DSP correction system also used by new Tannoy, Focal speakers, etc or even the P.A. oriented SIM or SMAART?
I guess it's not the best solution after so long work, but it's a pity seeing all your walls being removed.
Keep fighting, you have teached a lot and have been very generous allowing all of us to learn from your experience. This is the way Sound Engineering can progress.

BTW I am beginning to build a medium-sized studio very near form you, at Leon (Spain). A bit frightened, but encouraged by your motivation.

Muito obrigado.

Thanks for the compliments, I really appreciate it.

It's not so naive or stupid suggestion, there is always that last resort of using EQ or DSP for correction, but I'm trying to avoid that at any cost. It makes some things better but creates a lot of other problems.
Also I still have one way of doing it before reaching that point, for what I've tested, if I use a sub to generate frequencies from 20Hz to +/-130Hz and x-overing the monitors at 80-90Hz the problem practically disappears.
Anyhow I'm still trying to do it without having an external sub.

AND I WILL GET THERE!!!!!

i hope

Originally Posted by Sonic_X

Could you link us to those blocks filled with sand please, i'm sure many dudes who reading that would appreciate it -> Danke^^

I'm talking about regular strong cement blocks that are filled with sand as the construction goes on.

something like this but filled with sand.



It creates a lot of mass.

[therealtaxman]

Hi Eduardo! nice pictures of the construction and is great that you are actually do it yourself ..can you post more from the 2nd layer of the floor..and the walls..etc..it´d be alot of help cuz i´m gonna be in the same situation soon ...see u man!! have a nice day

[El Nino]

Your studio looks amazing Eduardo. Without a doubt inspiring. It kills me to see the studio taken apart though. After reading this thread I felt like I had gone through an emotional roller coaster. Being a musician and engineer also, I truly admire your dedication.

I sing for a little band called ILL NINO. We'll be in Europe for doing the summer festivals in 2010. I'd love to bring the guys by the studio if we are routed through Portugal.

[Atleast]

Marcelo rocks! Tenho a certeza que vais resolver o teu problema, mereces e muito! Abraço de Lisboa.

[3rd Degree]

Amazing. I was just trying to find inspiration for buying a new desk and read through this whole thread. I actually am most inspired by your drive to continue to try to get everything right, rather than work in a room you are not happy with or take any shortcuts.