Little Red Wagon Studios live room remodel - a Jeff Hedback design

[Trev@Circle]

Nice to see you venture into this forum Brad. Looking forward to it!

[TjTminds]

Hell yeah!

[Brad McGowan]

Here is the original email I first sent to Jeff Hedback to kick off this project. The subject of my email was entitled "my live room sounds like crap". I was pretty frustrated at this point and attempted to describe what I didn't like about the sound of the room. As a point of clarification I'd like to add that the DIY and commercial products I have employed (GIK, Real Traps) work wonderfully. However, up until this point, my application of them has not been professionally tailored to the specific acoustic challenges this space presents.

Hi Jeff,

I’ve been thinking about this for years. The live room in my studio kind of sounds crappy. A part of me thinks it used to sound better back when I had less knowledge and less treatment up. It’s been a work in progress over the last 10 years. It’s about 18x21x11 with concrete floor and ceiling tile glued to the ceiling. The walls are drywall and it’s technically a room within a room. But whoever built it stuffed the walls with cubicle partitions. It’s kind of strange. Bass seems to magically disappear through the walls. I have a bunch of GIK panels in corners and on the walls in addition to some DIY mineral wool panels I made. There’s also some large plywood membrane absorber traps placed near the corners (built from plans on Ethan Winer’s site…did that many years ago). Cymbals sound really trashy and harsh in this room. I struggle getting good drum room and overhead sounds. Vocal tracks lack focus unless I build a smaller “booth” around the vocalist using gobos. When Bob Hodas came out to shoot the control room he suggested that I put up some heavy curtains across one wall of the live room that had some glass windows. That seemed to help a little bit in taming some high end splashiness. But overall the tone of the room is not good.

So my question is this:

Is it possible to hire you to consult on re-treating this room so music actually sounds good in it? I often track drums, guitars, and bass all live in that room and would love for the bleed I experience to be useful and pleasant. I’d also love vocal tracks and drum room tracks to not suck ass. Do you do jobs where you work remotely via photographs, dimensioned sketches, and sound clips? What type of budget would be reasonable for new treatments (if I need stuff other than what I already have)?

Here’s some recent live recordings where I think you can hear the room well:

http://parksttrio.bandcamp.com/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aloha-...p_178091127385

sincerely,

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Here's some really old photos of the live room over the years to give everyone an idea of some of the things I've tried. They should be in chronological order...from 2001 to 2006 to 2010. I actually had forgotten about the array of T-Fusors I used to have on the rear wall.

You can see the large 2x8 ft. panel traps I had built in three of those pics. All of the gray absorber panels from those early days were DIY rockwool things wrapped with a jute fabric. The black panels are GIK 244's, and were added over the last few years (I'm a huge GIK fan and will be using their products in the remodel).

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Here are pics of the room taken at the time I sent the inquiry to Jeff. So this is the starting point from which we were working. The pictures are ordered as I turn clockwise around the room, starting at the wall closest to my control room. The panels on the black wall are all 1/2" plywood, with one edge offset from the wall using a 2x2 block. The IKEA drapes were added in 2010 to give me the ability to cover up two windows which were reflecting all sorts of nastiness back into the space. The panels on the ceiling are Real Traps Mondo Traps (I intend to re-purpose these in the build...killer product). I don't recommend mounting those on the ceiling...what a bitch. There is a better pic showing the above mentioned resonant panel absorbers.

I share the studio with some friends that use it as a rehearsal studio, so there is always way too much gear cluttering the live room.

Brad

[12thStreetSound]

Brad-

I appreciate your posts across these different forums.

Look forward to the construction pics.

Paul

[Brad McGowan]

Thanks, Paul! I appreciate the support.

I have lots of stuff to share. I'm hoping to post some of the Google sketchup files for the design soon. Then I'll start sharing pictures of my build progress. I'd say I'm about half way through the build at this point. Slowly, but surely...

Brad

[Jeffrey Hedback]

Hi Brad,

Great thread and story-telling already. From my perspective it was really crucial to listen to Brad's issues with room. I also listened to some tracks he'd recorded and other ways of cluing in to his concerns. Remember, my services are all remotely done in this case.

I had Brad do some room tests: speaker low in one corner & mic high in diagonal opposite. We did this in both diagonal directions of the room.

The net result is best described primarily as "missapropriation of acoustical materials". That is a cool term I picked up years ago that basically means the room as roughly all the elements it needs, but they're distributed "wrongly". Check the T30 graph from those tests (overlay of the two tests). The midrange/hi freq are smooth at ~ .3 sec decay and the lowest couple octaves are tightly controlled (due to a lossy shell)...but the upper bass/lower mid is way out of balance.

The plan: basics are
- add more upper bass/lower mid trapping
- retain and highlight the super cool wood featured entry wall
- add reflection in the vertical plane. His ceiling was a 100% covering of a type of ceiling tile fixed onto hard backing creating a big lo-pass filter
- make the rear wall (the wall opposite the super cool wood feature) work for how instruments and mics are positioned in session use.

[Brad McGowan]

Glad to see you here, Jeff! Thanks for tag-teaming this with me.

Question: what kind of T30 values do you usually like to see for a studio "live room"?

"Misappropriation of acoustical materials" = Brad has less of clue what he is doing than he thought.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

I wanted to elaborate a little bit on my requirements for this room because it provides insight into why Jeff approached the design the way he did. I'm sure the design solution for someone else's workflow would have been a little different. The concept presented to me was definitely tailored for the way I have come accustomed to working in this space.

As you can see in some of my "history" pics, I typically position drums in the rear half of the room (farthest from the plywood panel wall), underneath the black traps mounted to the ceiling. That leaves the front 2/3rds of the room open for the rest of the band to perform during basic tracking. Very often I'm capturing guitar amps simultaneously in the same space as the drums. Amps are usually placed a few feet out from the side walls close to the plywood panel wall (front wall), aiming at the opposite side wall. This allows me to use Royer R121's with the nulls pointed at the drums. However, I don't want the guitars to sound overly roomy in the drum mics. I want the sound near the amps to be focused and controlled.

Through trial and error I have learned that although I love the sound of my Royer SF12 on drum overheads, I really despise the honky hash I get in the back side of the mic. So my modified Oktava MC012's in X-Y tend to work way better. By positioning them above the drummer's head, and orienting them such that they look out into the room, I'm able to pick up some of the more diffuse sound that reflects off the front wall. Room mics usually sound terrible placed anywhere especially if they are condensers. Ribbons tend to sound best, but only when placed in very specific locations since there are many hot and cold spots in the room. As I mentioned previously, the low end just seems to magically disappear in this room. I've been in other studios and you can feel the low end punch of a kick drum from 15 feet away. You do not experience that in my room. It's weird. So I really wanted Jeff to address these realities.

Vocals are typically recorded in the live room as well. I like the cohesiveness I achieve by recording drums and vocals in the same acoustic space, however the tonality of vocal tracks can be honky and stuffy. Using EQ to remove this problem causes tracks to get thin and sibilant. By trying to correct one problem I inevitably create a new one. Ideally I want to be able to put a vocalist, or multiple vocalists anywhere in this room and have the room tone augment the sound in a positive way.

Brad

[tstrahle]

Jeff's a great guy. Would love for him to do my room.

[u b k]

That looks like a super-vibey starting point, I can't wait to see how this evolves!


Gregory Scott - ubk

[Glenn Kuras]

"Misappropriation of acoustical materials" = Brad has less of clue what he is doing than he thought.

Not at all, I would say. I have known you for years and you get this stuff more then most. Now I think you are at the point of really being able to focus on the room vs just trying different things.

[Jeffrey Hedback]

Hey Brad,

You're funny! "Missapropriation of Acoustical Materials" is just a term...not a bad thing. I like it because although it's an overly complex way to say something simple, it highlights the importance of putting the right thing in the right place...anyway, carry on!

A good target T30 in this size room could range in the mid-bands from our current .3 sec to ~ .6 sec (maybe a bit more). There should be a basic relation between 100Hz and 1K of ~2:1. There's a whole range of "it depends" and preferences in this kind of qualifier. Going back to the T30 before graph, it's just very easy to see how the upper bass/lo-mids are out of balance.

Sharing a few 3D snapshots of the design concept. These images are showing most of the changes (existing features that are to remain are not shown). The ceiling is an array of 2x4 panels (plywood with absorption backing and (2) 1'x1' squares of absorption on bottom) that are 75% hard and 25% soft. They are in a primitive root sequence as a group (their height above the floor). The rear wall exchanges his tuned devices for superchunk style corners, a poly cylinderical array and broadband panels flanking to sides and below.

[Brad McGowan]

Here are some plots that Jeff had sent me after I had taken measurements for him. Perhaps he can elaborate on the modal one.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

To continue the presentation of Jeff's design concept, here are additional Sketchup screen captures. Explanations coming soon.

In the third and fourth pics below you can see an additional nine 4" thick absorber panels required for the ceiling, flanking the ends of the array. That was added later in the process. Perhaps Jeff can give more insight there. Also along each of the long ceiling/wall corners he specified 4" thick absorbers spanning the entire length. Currently in the room there are pieces of drop ceiling tile that create a 45 degree angle across those corners. You can see that in the photos I posted earlier. Many years ago I stuffed a bunch of pink insulation behind it. However, Jeff wanted me to add even more bass trapping there.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Not at all, I would say. I have known you for years and you get this stuff more then most. Now I think you are at the point of really being able to focus on the room vs just trying different things.

Thanks, Glenn. I think I'm at the point where I'm realistic about the results I can obtain by haphazardly hanging panels throughout the room versus paying a professional to strategically distribute the right devices in the right places. It's literally taken 10+ years of listening to instruments recorded in this space to realize I have a problem that is bigger than what I am capable of addressing by myself.

As fun as it is to spend $2-3k on a new compressor or EQ or microphone...the impact of investing that same amount of money in quality acoustical design and treatment products is much greater to the music I am ultimately trying to make. It's not a very slutty attitude to have, but it's certainly result-driven. If I could go back to square one and start over I sincerely would have invested my money with the following priorities:

1. Acoustics
2. Console
3. Tape Decks
4. Microphones (really good ones like my U67 and Royers)

Brad

[Jeffrey Hedback]

Hello Brad,

I like the conversational tone of your thread and thought I'd try to answer your questions on the 4" panels. if you reference the T30 graphs, we need some real muscle to reduce the ~100Hz to 200hz range by a second or more. So that results in the 4" panels and their locations. Your existing ceiling tile with attic insulation just doesn't have enough muscle (so add the 4" to it). The 4" panels at front and back parts of ceiling are to further the needed muscle and to allow (hopefully) the most flexibility to place all kinds of sources near the front and/or back wall. We will have a lot of reflection and redirection going one once the ceiling array and rear wall poly array starts working with your existing angled plywood front wall.

oh yeah Brad...I hear you visited Andrew's room (and dug it)...hope so. That was a very fun project.

[Brad McGowan]

With plans in place, the first order of business was to figure out exactly how I was going to implement the design. I decided early on I just could not afford to hire an installer, so I needed to choose products and materials that were going to be feasible for me to install myself. While meeting my budget for materials was important, it was equally important to think through how I intended to mount everything so that I could select products that wouldn't cause more problems than they solved, especially from an installation perspective. I have to say my experience as a mechanical engineer helped me greatly in this regard. You always want to design for integration and assembly. In my case, I was also concerned with modularity. I wanted the implementation to be easily removeable such that in the event that I ever move my studio, I can take it all with me and re-purpose it in a new space.

I spent a good week looking at various options online and talking to Jeff about his experience with different suppliers. Ultimately I settled on the following for the reasons below:

1. Rear corner trapping: Instead of building Superchunks in the rear corners from scratch, I opted for GIK Tri-traps. I bought four total: two stacked in each corner. Even though it would have been cheaper to DIY the Superchunk, I hate working with insulation, and the thought of all that labor was not appealing. Time is money. I'd rather be recording music.

2. Ceiling / Wall corner trapping: Due to the mounting challenges associated with getting five panels across each ceiling / side wall corners, I chose ATS Acoustic 4” panels. The plywood backing and z-clips allows me to easily create a framework on which to secure everything. Installation should be simple once the clips are all mounted in the right locations. Also, given that I’m in an earthquake zone, this type of rigid attachment appealed to me. Price was right too. GIK 244 panels just would have been too difficult to mount since I was lining up panels end to end across the entire length of the room.

3. Ceiling absorber panels: For the nine panels that hang parallel to the floor from the ceiling at either ends of the room, I chose GIK 244 panels. The come in a white color that matches my ceiling almost perfectly. I also really like the fact that they are open on the back (and sides), so low frequency absorption is enhanced. The eye hooks make it easy to suspend from the ceiling using chains.

4. Ceiling array diffuser panels: On the lower side of each plywood diffuser panel Jeff specified a 12x12x1” beveled absorber. On the back side he specified a 24x48x2” absorber. I went with ATS Acoustics for both of those. The 12” panel was a custom size, but the ATS website makes it easy to specify custom products. The plywood backing on both of those panels will allow me to easily fabricate each diffuser panel for the array using a few wood screws and eyebolts. Again, I wanted maximum flexibility for recycling this stuff should I ever decide to vacate this room. I think the beveled wood frame on the 2” back-side absorber will help the diffusion as well. The budget friendly prices sealed the deal.

More pics soon!

Brad

p.s. I've made considerable progress since I last posted so I have lots to report on.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hedback

oh yeah Brad...I hear you visited Andrew's room (and dug it)...hope so. That was a very fun project.

I did indeed! I looks and sounds like a million bucks. Fantastic work, Jeff. I was really impressed. Even though it's a home theater room, I could probably mix in that room.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Progress...

My iso room has become storage for all the GIK and ATS boxes. And as you can see, my control room is a bit out of sorts, too.

If you look back at the "before" pics of the room you can see that I have removed all six plywood panel traps from the room. I donated them to a friend's studio. The rear wall is starting to look like Jeff's Sketchup pics. GIK Tri-traps and Real Traps MondoTraps are in place. In the third pic you can kind of see how I used six 24x24x4" absorbers across the lower portion of the rear wall. The last step in this whole process will be to install the poly array.

For the ceiling/wall absorbers down the sides, I used 1x2" furring strips to which I fastened the z-clips included with the ATS Acoustics 4" panels. There were already 2x2" strips spanning the length of the room to hold in the drop ceiling tiles you can see across the side corners. Many years ago I had back filled those tiles with pink insulation. But as Jeff mentioned, more muscle was needed. The first side was a bitch to do. I kept making measurement mistakes (measure twice, cut once...DOH!). The second side went a bit faster once I realized that the ratcheting screwdriver worked much better than my cordless drill to install the vertical strips. Pilot holes helped immensely too. I quickly figured out that the key to efficiency is working out a repeatably process that can be executed assembly line style.

Brad

[Syncamorea]

Since you still have instruments in the room, it will be interesting to read your observations about how different changes affect the sound of the room.

[Brad McGowan]

I actually share the studio with some friends that use it as their rehearsal space. They have their next rehearsal on Thursday so I'll be sure to get their feedback. I was down there a week ago when my studiomate was jamming with a drummer using a really nice custom drum kit. I definitely noticed a difference even with the treatment scheme only partially implemented. The brown kit you see in the pics is my custom 3-piece. On that far end of the room (that has the Tri-traps, MondoTraps, and panels low across the width), I notice a little more definition and focus in the toms and snare. I think things are really going to come together sonically once I have the ceiling array in place.

Brad

[BLueROom]

Very cool Brad! Jeff really seems like a good guy from my brief interaction with him. I asked him his opinion on the route I was taking with my live room and luckily I was on the right track. It's almost done!

btw, drywall, mudding, painting, building traps and electrical all suck equally as bad.

[Brad McGowan]

Email me some pics! I still need to come visit your place.

Brad

[Syncamorea]

Originally Posted by BLueROom

btw, drywall, mudding, painting, building traps and electrical all suck equally as bad.

I'm with you on all things drywall and paint, but traps and electrical (as long as it's for new work) are OK for me.

[Brad McGowan]

I got the very worst part of the whole build out of the way this weekend. I layed out the array of ceiling panels on the floor and transfered the mounting locations to the ceiling using a laser level. Now I can start installing drywall anchors and d-rings for suspending all these guys. I'm on the home stretch now!

Brad

[Syncamorea]

Cool! Looking forward to the next installment.

[Brad McGowan]

The first five GIK panels are on the ceiling. I need to take some pics showing how they are suspended. I used 100 lb. drywall toggle anchors to mount D-rings to the ceiling:

http://www.amazon.com/ITW-Buildex-To...+anchor+toggle

http://www.amazon.com/Extra-Heavy-Du...eywords=d+ring

Because my ceiling has drop ceiling tile glue to the sheetrock I needed to scrape it away for the anchor to seat properly. I initially used a razor blade but found that using one of those large hole bits was much more efficient. I'll take some pics to show that next time I'm at the studio. I used 1" vinyl chain and 1" S-hooks to suspend the panels from each D-ring.

As I layed out the the other panel mounting points I realized that I shifted the GIK panels over a few inches accidently by adding a 2" gap between each panel (to allow for sloppy mounting). Oops...so I'm going to have one diffusor panel not ideally aligned with the rest of the array. Live and learn.

Brad