Small professional home recording studio in Italy

[hsstudio]

Hi guys,
we are two young friends (22 and 26) and this is our first thread on this great forum, hope you find this useful and please share every kind of comments or advices.

We are starting this project in the north-east of Italy, our goal is to build a studio that satisfy local music recording requests.

This is a total D.I.Y. studio, expect for gears (obiviously) and some small electrician/wall building works.

As of today, we are filled with huge recording studios who threat customers only as a number in their annual incomes, instead we want to learn what people have to say and what maybe we can give to them.

Now stop talking about our ideas, and of course, we show you the beginning of our project called Hysteric Sound Studio.

(Sorry for our italian-english )
--
Marco & Umberto

The first three photos are renderings of what will be the final result. (We are not shure about wall painting colors)... The last photos are current state of work...

[JoaT]

Looks like a cool project to watch. I'll be doing just that.

[MidasHatesGold]

Originally Posted by JoaT

Looks like a cool project to watch. I'll be doing just that.

count me in...looking good so far...cool design.(DIY??)

all the best

[hsstudio]

Originally Posted by MidasHatesGold

count me in...looking good so far...cool design.(DIY??)

all the best

Yes, it's made with Google SketchUp, a free 3d rendering software and it's designed all by us!
We studied acoustic building techniques at our Sound Engineering College, but we want to hear some other comments about our acoustic isolation strategies.
If you need some other explanations, we can give you all the details you want.
Next week we will post some other pictures of the working status (now we're building up the walls you see in light red filled with sand)

[dpalasini]

Could you maybe explain a little about what your materials and isolation methods are? I cant tell, is there a window into the live room?
What kind of building are you in? Are you on ground level, up above, etc?

This looks really cool so far-keep the photos coming!

[sandking782]

Nice google sketches.

Will be interesting to see your progress.

[LeMauce]

Looking nice the building plants. I stayed tuned!

[skyshooter]

Sweet looks like a good size for a small studio, I will be awaiting more updates soon!

[hsstudio]

Originally Posted by dpalasini

Could you maybe explain a little about what your materials and isolation methods are? I cant tell, is there a window into the live room?
What kind of building are you in? Are you on ground level, up above, etc?

This looks really cool so far-keep the photos coming!

Hi,

we are on two garages at ground level of an old two floors building. As you can see from the attached pictures, we tried to isolate the best/cheapest we can.
The control room is 4,8m length x 3,3m wide x 2,8m tall.
The recording room is 4,1m length x 3,6m wide x 2,8m tall.

This weekend we will post some new pics.

Stay tuned!

[dpalasini]

Awesome! Looking forward to it!

[spacebat]

Hi There!

I'm about to start planning a very similar build to yours and I was wondering

Originally Posted by hsstudio

Hi,
The control room is 4,8m length x 3,3m wide x 2,8m tall.

Are those dimensions for the untreated space i.e. the shell of the building before you add all the inner layers, sand, air bricks, board etc?

If so what do you estimate your final internal dimensions will be for the control room?

Good luck- looks like a great project!
Spacebat :-)

[hsstudio]

Hi spacebat!

Yes, those dimensions are for untreated space.
The final dimensions will probably be a lot different from the untreated because the isolation walls aren't parallel.

We will use 45cm for the largest isolation wall and 25cm for the smallest, as you can see from the commented plant pic...

Originally Posted by spacebat

Hi There!

I'm about to start planning a very similar build to yours and I was wondering



Are those dimensions for the untreated space i.e. the shell of the building before you add all the inner layers, sand, air bricks, board etc?

If so what do you estimate your final internal dimensions will be for the control room?

Good luck- looks like a great project!
Spacebat :-)

[hsstudio]

Hi guys,

here are some new pics!
These are the air brick walls filled with sand.
And finally some new stuff has arrived!
In some weeks we do the rest of isolation works, and of course, post new pics!

Stay tuned!

[Demor]

Aren't you afraid that the sand when it dries and settles will put enormous pressure on the base of the wall?

[takman]

putting sand between the two walls was probably not a good idea.

the air between the two walls is what is going to give the isolation you seek. Mass-Air-Mass. the air is going to act like a spring.

Also, by adding sand, you have created a flanking path between the two walls, and the sound is going to travel right thru the first wall into the second wall.

The bricks you used are very hollow and are NOT going to provide you with the mass you need. and as mentioned, the sand is going to put a lot of weight/strain on the lower parts of the wall....could be dangerous.

Nobody has said anything so far.....but i think you guys are heading in the wrong direction really fast. I would have come on here seeking advice BEFORE you started building.

[hally]

I am not a structural engineer but with my limited knowlogde I do know that a masonary wall build as u have build ur walls is not going to withstand the sideways pressure that the sand is going to place on it. It will withstand a huge amount of downward pressure but not from the side. Try knowking down a block wall with a sledge hammer by hitting the wall from above - u may take a few lumps of the top blocks and then hit the wall from the side - it will quite easily give way

I hope somebody more qualified can comment on this but in my opinion you are creating a very dangerous work envirnoment and I know for sure that here in Ireland I would not be permitted to build such a structure...

Please re think ur plans

regards
hally

[MidasHatesGold]

sand is 1.6 tons per cubic meter...I hope these anchors are strong enough


I assume this is special sand???

[takman]

i knew from the beginning when i first saw the sketchup plans, that what they designed was NOT correct. I had thought about saying something, but i figured more experienced members would have chimed in a long time ago.

HSSstudio..... i hope you are reading this. Stop what you are doing right now. What you are doing is no NOT safe.

And if you think you are going get the isolation/soundproofing that you want from the way you are building the walls, you are really going to be dissapointed. It will be a lot of time and money wasted.

[hally]

Aside from the hazard of sand between the walls I completely agree with the last comments on soundproofing

The quickest way for you to check if ur sounding proofing wall assemble is working is to use a hammer to hit the interior side of ur new wall, I guarantee u will feel a strong vibration in the old exterior wall, this means that ur assembly is transfering energy quite easily to the outter wall and therefore useless in terms of soundproofing, hopefully this realisation will make u reconsider ur wall construction...

regards
hally

[hsstudio]

Originally Posted by takman

putting sand between the two walls was probably not a good idea.

the air between the two walls is what is going to give the isolation you seek. Mass-Air-Mass. the air is going to act like a spring.

Also, by adding sand, you have created a flanking path between the two walls, and the sound is going to travel right thru the first wall into the second wall.

The bricks you used are very hollow and are NOT going to provide you with the mass you need. and as mentioned, the sand is going to put a lot of weight/strain on the lower parts of the wall....could be dangerous.

Nobody has said anything so far.....but i think you guys are heading in the wrong direction really fast. I would have come on here seeking advice BEFORE you started building.

Hi takman, we are really happy to hear from other people about our project....

We tought that by adding sand between the walls, the sound will be slowed down and there will be more isolation than by keeping only air.

We know that to get the best we would fill the space with rockwool, but that's expensive and we can't afford it, so we thought that sand would be a good and cheaper alternative.

Don't you think that if you leave the space empty there will be a resonance between the two wall and decrease isolation?

We are aware that the sand is going to give a lot of pressure to the wall, but the mason assured us that the wall will contain it, we also added some anchors to achieve this, but if you think this isn't true, please tell us!

We tought the sand as a filler, we will add two additional layer of plasterboard and rockwool to those walls to achieve the mass-air-mass system we need for isolation...

We are really surprised to hear from a lot of people that the wall filled with sand isn't a good idea, and now we must take a decision, please help us like you did till now.

Do we have to remove the sand to prevent wall crashing or just to get more isolation?

Will we achieve a better isolation if we leave the space empty? Or we have to fill with rockwool?

Do we have to trust the mason about wall consistency?

Do you have some reference we can read about sand and pressure or sand and sound?

Please, le us know as soon as possible, and thanks in advance to all the people who's helping us with our dream!

[hsstudio]

Originally Posted by hally

Aside from the hazard of sand between the walls I completely agree with the last comments on soundproofing

The quickest way for you to check if ur sounding proofing wall assemble is working is to use a hammer to hit the interior side of ur new wall, I guarantee u will feel a strong vibration in the old exterior wall, this means that ur assembly is transfering energy quite easily to the outter wall and therefore useless in terms of soundproofing, hopefully this realisation will make u reconsider ur wall construction...

regards
hally

Hi hally,

thanks for your comment, this afternoon we will try this!
Is there any other way to check energy transfer?

And now, is there a way to not remove sand and protect the wall from crashing and giving better isolation?

[muziekschuur]

If the sand is put in bags it will not press sideways, if stacked correctly.

[hally]

Do we have to remove the sand to prevent wall crashing or just to get more isolation?

Both, your wall assembly is dangerous and will not deliver what u expect in terms of soundproofing...

My advise wud be to stop construction immediately and follow this link and read all about how to properly construct walls that will attenuate sound...

John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • View topic - Some terms defined (added to REFERENCE section)

and then read everything else relevant on that site...and here also

I made the mistake of rushing into the building of my studio without properly planning and without sufficient knowlodge on the subject - I paid financially and the project will take twice as long to complete...

I also suggest u learn how to use a cad programme for drawing and modeling ur design, this is indespencible... Post ur ideas hereand u will recieve all the help u need from people alot more knowlodgable than me and who can probably spell better...

regards
hally

[takman]

Originally Posted by hsstudio

Hi takman, we are really happy to hear from other people about our project....

We tought that by adding sand between the walls, the sound will be slowed down and there will be more isolation than by keeping only air.

We know that to get the best we would fill the space with rockwool, but that's expensive and we can't afford it, so we thought that sand would be a good and cheaper alternative.

Don't you think that if you leave the space empty there will be a resonance between the two wall and decrease isolation?

We are aware that the sand is going to give a lot of pressure to the wall, but the mason assured us that the wall will contain it, we also added some anchors to achieve this, but if you think this isn't true, please tell us!

We tought the sand as a filler, we will add two additional layer of plasterboard and rockwool to those walls to achieve the mass-air-mass system we need for isolation...

We are really surprised to hear from a lot of people that the wall filled with sand isn't a good idea, and now we must take a decision, please help us like you did till now.

Do we have to remove the sand to prevent wall crashing or just to get more isolation?

Will we achieve a better isolation if we leave the space empty? Or we have to fill with rockwool?

Do we have to trust the mason about wall consistency?

Do you have some reference we can read about sand and pressure or sand and sound?

Please, le us know as soon as possible, and thanks in advance to all the people who's helping us with our dream!

Not to be rude...i like your ambition. But lets be honest shall we...

A good studio is 90 percent design, and 10 percent construction.

The questions you are asking me are questions you should know before you even started...............


.......but now that you have started, lets make the best of it. I will try to give the best advice i can, based on my studies of books, and from years of reading on various forums like this...

We tought that by adding sand between the walls, the sound will be slowed down and there will be more isolation than by keeping only air.

No..this is wrong. I know it seems counter-intuative...but air is a better isolater. Look at any professional studio build...and the walls are built like STC 57 or ST C63



The sand is going to going to cause the two walls to touch each other. And when we are building a studio, we dont want want that! We need to De-couple them as much as possible. De-coupling basically means this (my own non technical explanation):

1. An object is not touching something else at all
2. an object is touching something else, but with the least amount of surface area as possible
3. an object is touching something else, but things that isolate well like rubber are used between the two objects.

The idea here is you build a room inside a room. The most perfect situation is if you could have a room ( big), then another room (smaller) inside that room. But have the smaller room magically floating inside the the larger room...so that nothing between the two rooms is touching at all!

but of course, thats not possible. So we try to limit where the walls of our
studio touch the main structure/building.

making sense? By filling sand between the walls, you have just connected the two walls together...and not just in a couple places....but the entire of surfaces of all your walls.This is BAD BAD BAD for a studio.

And its not like the walls are touching via an insulator like rockwool...which is not very dense...they are touching with compacted sand. The sound is going to cut through your walls like a hot knife thru butter.

We know that to get the best we would fill the space with rockwool, but that's expensive and we can't afford it, so we thought that sand would be a good and cheaper alternative.

If you look in the diagram i showed you...the gap is NOT filled. Theres no filling of anything. So you may not need as much as you think. And there are cheaper alternatives to rockwool. They may not work as well, but they exist.

Don't you think that if you leave the space empty there will be a resonance between the two wall and decrease isolation?

Again, look at the walls being constructed in any professional studio build. they have the air space. Its been tested..this is how it is.

I can tell you that the larger the gap/space between the two walls, the better...... and the less resonance you will have.

The walls will resonate to some degree no matter what...but again, thats why we de-couple everything as much as possible, so the vibrations from the resonance doest travel to other places.

We are aware that the sand is going to give a lot of pressure to the wall, but the mason assured us that the wall will contain it, we also added some anchors to achieve this, but if you think this isn't true, please tell us!

I'm not a structural engineer. But, if it were me, i would be worried that the walls would have serious problems later. or that it could be dangerous.

One thing is obvious is that these masons know nothing about building a studio wall.

and also those bricks you used. I cant imagine those being good for building a studio wall, due to the fact they are hollow like that. You need thick heavy mass, like a solid brick...unless the hollow tubes of the brick are filled with sand?

We tought the sand as a filler, we will add two additional layer of plasterboard and rockwool to those walls to achieve the mass-air-mass system we need for isolation...

If i understand you correctly....wont this eat up a ton of studio space? Building the mas-air-mass setup on top of what you built already is just a waste of time, money, and precious studio space. all you need was the exterior wall with insulation on it--- GAP--- then the new wall with insulation on it.

Do we have to remove the sand to prevent wall crashing or just to get more isolation?

thats your call. i think the sand has two negative aspects. I dont think its safe, and it makes the isolation your want worse. Those are two pretty important things, dont ya think?

[takman]

HSS...


have a look thru this thread.....studio built in greece. it uses materials that would also be available in your country.

Fabric Audio - Studio Construction

have a look at their walls...



brick wall w/insulation------GAP-------brick wall w/insulation

[kranku68]

hello hss
do you have built two or four walls like these we can see on your photos ?
honestly, according to my little experience in building, it would be better to crush down all that while you can still do that.
7,5 cm large bricks are not made to handle the pressure of the same size of sand.
they are only made to build separation walls.
if you want something to handle this sand without problems, you would have to use 20 cm concrete bricks.
even if you 've put some steel anchors it's really not safe.
sorry

[MidasHatesGold]

I suggest you to test the sound transmission loss between the walls and than decide weather you tear down the wall, or stabilize it.


here are some options:

you could use LIQVOR SILICIVM (liquid glass) in combination with carbon dioxid to make the sand solid.

You could insert steel-concrete reinforcements into the bricks.

or you remove some of the "first row stones" and get rid of the sand and replace it with blow cellulose insulation. or just leave it empty.

(...)

some questions:


When I look closer to the sketches and compare them with the photos it seems that the dimensions of the wall thickness is not matching....can this be confirmed???

Did you use the same bricks (how many leafs???) to close the garage portal????if so you are anchoring a weak wall to a weak wall= not good.

The wall between the two rooms isn´t brickwork or concrete, right???

could some of the experts chime in and give the guys a little light.



I apologize for not taking the time to read your answer with the sand...I though it was air

please consult a designer like jbrandt. I think you guys kill quite a bit of your reel estate (room size)


all the best

[bassjam]

Best way is to build a solid concrete block wall inside the existing wall, put rockwool down the gap, you only do this to stop mortar spilling down and filling the cavity.

In the UK solid concretes are cheaper than breeze block!

Then put your sound treatment in.

G

[hsstudio]

Hi guys,

thanks for your replies! Unfortunately, we can't remove those walls, because of many other circumstaces (money, time, ...). Now we will add some heavy anchors where there is more pressure, like the wide side where there is a lot of sand.

We know we lost one layer of mass-air-mass, but we will achieve this by using the STC 63 method as described above by takman.

So, after a gap of 5cm in front of our big mass made by walls and sand (we know we lost a lot of useful space) we will place a first layer of plasterboard, then insulation --- gap (2cm) --- insulation again and finally the second layer of plasterboard.

Now this is the best we can do, let us know what you think!

In reply to Midas:

Originally Posted by MidasHatesGold

When I look closer to the sketches and compare them with the photos it seems that the dimensions of the wall thickness is not matching....can this be confirmed???

No, the dimensions are matching. Maybe it is not clear in the picture.

Originally Posted by MidasHatesGold

Did you use the same bricks (how many leafs???) to close the garage portal????if so you are anchoring a weak wall to a weak wall= not good.

Yes, we used the same bricks to close the garages but they are heavy anchored to the structural walls of the building.

Originally Posted by MidasHatesGold

The wall between the two rooms isn´t brickwork or concrete, right???

The wall between the two rooms is brickwork, but we will apply only the weight of plasterboard plus insulation as you can see from the studio design

[AndyHD]

HSS, you'd be better off pulling the wall down and starting again, that's a mighty large accident waiting to happen - money won't buy you a new skeleton if the worst happens.

If you are keeping the wall, forget about having two air gaps, as this will create a 'triple leaf' effect that will reduce your transmission loss. You are better off building a stud wall against your brick wall with insulation, then as large an air gap as your space can afford, then another insulated stud wall, then two layers of gypsum.

like this:

BBX XII
BBX XII
BBX XII
BBX XII

(BB = bricks, X= insulated 2x4 stud, and I = Gypsum. The space is obviously the air gap.)

Read up here for more on the triple leaf effect: The Significance of Air Cavity Depth & the Triple Leaf Effect | Soundproofing Company

Andy