studios window angles

[comsigns]

Hi all
More then liklely this has been bashed out a bit, but is it best to angle the windows between the 2 walls or not, if so or if not what r the reasons, also how thick should the windows be? one 8mm and the other 6mm or can it be 12mm and 8mm does it make any difference.
Kind Regards
comsigns

[bassjam]

The angles dont do anything at all! The BBC did it years ago to avoid visual reflections due to the electric light in use at the time. People assumed that it was for sonic benefit but it wasnt. For a DG unit use, 10mm glass 12mm gap then 6.4 mm glass.

[Downsound]

Originally Posted by bassjam

The angles dont do anything at all!

Yep! I concur. You don't have to angle them. Just make sure you use two different thicknesses of glass. I say get the thickest you can afford. What you want is laminated glass. It has better sound proofing properties due to a layer of polyvinyl butyral sandwiched between two pieces of glass.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by Downsound

Yep! I concur. You don't have to angle them. Just make sure you use two different thicknesses of glass. I say get the thickest you can afford. What you want is laminated glass. It has better sound proofing properties due to a layer of polyvinyl butyral sandwiched between two pieces of glass.

Depending on the size and thickness of the glass, lamination can create a "funhouse" effect. We had to reject all laminated glass because the optics were just too weird. We went with tempered instead (which doesn't help the sound, but does help the strength).

As with any serious endeavor, test a prototype before spending $$$$.

[Downsound]

Originally Posted by Clueless

Depending on the size and thickness of the glass, lamination can create a "funhouse" effect. We had to reject all laminated glass because the optics were just too weird. We went with tempered instead (which doesn't help the sound, but does help the strength).

As with any serious endeavor, test a prototype before spending $$$$.

I've never had that problem, but Clueless is VERY deep into the whole studio building process, so I would defintely heed his advice. My windows are a modest 2' by 3', and I have not had any problems with the optics. Your mileage may vary.

[bassjam]

I have also never seen any laminate distortion, even on very large windows. Only problem with toughened glass is that it is very fragile on its edges, one tiny ding and it will shatter!

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by bassjam

I have also never seen any laminate distortion, even on very large windows. Only problem with toughened glass is that it is very fragile on its edges, one tiny ding and it will shatter!

Our dealings with glass really surprised our GC. It could very well be that we just hit an amazing run of errors, but he told me that it's a relatively recent phenomenon--that on many of his recent projects, the making of good glass seems to be a lost art. Perhaps you live in a place where this amnesia has not yet taken hold. If you test the materials before you count on them, you can make appropriate plans. We suffered about a 1 month delay because we just assumed that what has been easily delivered for the past 100 years could be delivered this year. Not anymore, apparently.

[bassjam]

Lucky for us we are near a town called St Helens. St Helens is the home of Pilkingtons, one of the world leaders in flat glass manufacturing! They seem to have no problems with large, thick laminate glass.......

[bassjam]

Fortunatally for us, we are very close to a town called St Helens. Based in st Helens is Pilkingtons, one of the worlds leading flat glass manufacturers. They have no problems with thick laminate pains.....

[MidasHatesGold]

I bet you wrote that on two computers at the same time. That´s multitasking at it´s best ;-P

[Demor]

So the rediation of waves coming from panel one and hitting panel two at an angle of 30 degrees or more isn't going to help? I always thought that direct impact was way worse than angled, though it should be a great enough angle and distance between the panels, and with absorbtion all around, so that will eat up a lot of room. A few degrees 2 inches apart will do next to nothing I guess.

[RonT]

It looks cool!

I don't know nothing........especially tecnically speaking..... but I angled-dangled the glass and sealed the crap out of it. I used 1/2" float glass on CR side angled from top out bottom in and 3/4" float glass on Live and ISO sides plum. It simply works great and I have no complaints.

I angled it becuase that's how I saw others doing it. I thought it was supposed to help with the reflections coming off of the window in the CR while mixing? Anywho, the more the angle the more the sound can travel through the glass becuase you will end up with less air gap.

Again, It looks cool!

[takman]

Originally Posted by Downsound

Yep! I concur. You don't have to angle them. Just make sure you use two different thicknesses of glass. I say get the thickest you can afford. What you want is laminated glass. It has better sound proofing properties due to a layer of polyvinyl butyral sandwiched between two pieces of glass.

basically, the same glass used for automotive windshields right?

and why do you use two different thicknesses?

[Downsound]

Originally Posted by takman

basically, the same glass used for automotive windshields right?

and why do you use two different thicknesses?

Yep, laminated glass is used in auto windshields. And it's also used in ALL the windows in luxury cars (vs. tempered glass) - due to the sound insulation properties. It's my understanding that you want to use different thicknesses of glass so they resonate at different frequencies - I believe it helps stop sound transmission. I'm sure someone with more technical knowledge could explain it better than me!

[RonT]

Originally Posted by Downsound

It's my understanding that you want to use different thicknesses of glass so they resonate at different frequencies - I believe it helps stop sound transmission. I'm sure someone with more technical knowledge could explain it better than me!

Sometimes the answer is as simple as one states it.thumbsup

[takman]

i would think then.....that having by walls with two different thicknesses, they would also resonate at different frequencies?

for example, a double leaf wall seperating the control room with the live room. lets say window for the wall, you use 1/2" glass on the live side, and 5/8" on the the control room side....on the live side wall you use one sheet of drywall, and two sheets for the control room wall....

if in fact the different sides of the wall resonate at different frequencies......would that outweigh the loss of isolation you would have with only using 1 sheet of drywall on the live room side?

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by takman

i would think then.....that having by walls with two different thicknesses, they would also resonate at different frequencies?

[...]

if in fact the different sides of the wall resonate at different frequencies......would that outweigh the loss of isolation you would have with only using 1 sheet of drywall on the live room side?

I seriously doubt that one sheet of drywall is going to provide any reasonable isolation, and that would be far more serious than the potential resonance between two double-layer drywall walls. But you shouldn't have to guess: many folks have built and measured many different wall configurations, and the measured STC at different frequencies *does* take resonance into account. I.e., any transmission caused as a result of resonant coupling is going to show up as a lower STC. Pick the best STC you can afford and spend your time worrying about the next problem you'll have (and there always will be one more problem).

[takman]

Originally Posted by Clueless

I seriously doubt that one sheet of drywall is going to provide any reasonable isolation, and that would be far more serious than the potential resonance between two double-layer drywall walls. But you shouldn't have to guess: many folks have built and measured many different wall configurations, and the measured STC at different frequencies *does* take resonance into account. I.e., any transmission caused as a result of resonant coupling is going to show up as a lower STC. Pick the best STC you can afford and spend your time worrying about the next problem you'll have (and there always will be one more problem).

ok bad idea then.

would it be better to have the thicker piece of glass on the control room side, or the other side of the wall ( live, vocal, drum room etc...)

[bassjam]

Originally Posted by takman

ok bad idea then.

would it be better to have the thicker piece of glass on the control room side, or the other side of the wall ( live, vocal, drum room etc...)

You should have the thicker glass towards the loudest side.

our window between CR and studio is as follows......

19mm lam DG unit DG unit 19mm lam


thats 6 pieces of glass going in the order of......

[19mm] [10mm 12mm gap 6.4mm] [6.4mm 12mm gap 10mm] [19mm]

[takman]

what about switching up the drywall thickness when installing them..

for example;

lets say i am going build a two leaf wall using two layers of drywall per side. one layer will be 1/2" drywall and one 5/8" drywall.

if on one side of the wall, i install the 1/2" first, and then other wall gets the 5/8" first. would this make any difference?

Also, do you really need to use two different thickness drywall layers? is it the same concept as the two thicknesses for the window...to resonate at different frequencies?

also, does it matter what thickness drywall gets put on first? thicker piece first...or thinner piece first?

[Analogue Kid]

My experience regarding the driwall is it would make no difference what thickness you applied first..... Just my opinion.....

However regarding the glass situation Greg is spot on, it does make a lot of difference......

Our control Walls are built out of solid dense concrete block.... Each block weighs approximate 20kgs, very very heavy to lay but Roger told us it was an absolute must that it had to be......

Best of luck mate


Andy

[bassjam]

Varying draywall wont do jack!

We go to the trouble with glass because it the densest material that we can see through!

You need to add mass to the walls, if you look on the bridge thread, Greg Curtis used lead covered MDF to add mass to the walls and floor.

In the UK we have a material called barrieratting which does te same thing, if I were you id look into adding that to your walls with the thickest drywall you can get and building up a sandwich of them both.

Just my opinion,

G

[Analogue Kid]

thought as much

[takman]

Originally Posted by bassjam

Varying draywall wont do jack!



G

ok.

but using two different thicknesses is common practice right? is there any reasoning for that? or can i just use, say two pieces of the same thickness?

[Eli Resnick]

I would think that, even if it doesn't significantly reduce overall transmission, angling the glass would create a non-parallel chamber between the windows, which would resonate slightly at many frequencies. This should be better for the glass than a parallel chamber which resonates very strongly when you hit one specific high frequency. Maybe the internal resonances have nothing on the strength of laminated glass? But I'd still bet that what resonates between the plates will end up transmitting more efficiently than what doesn't, so I'd rather have smooth peaks and valleys in that EQ curve than one big spike.

[Downsound]

Originally Posted by takman

or can i just use, say two pieces of the same thickness?

You can use two pieces of the same thickness - the thickest you can find. Like previous posts stated, it's all about mass. I think two sheets of 5/8" drywall for your walls should be the minimum. That is what I did, but I used green glue in between sheets (if you can afford it). I have pretty good isolation, but the bass still gets through.

[takman]

Originally Posted by Downsound

You can use two pieces of the same thickness - the thickest you can find. Like previous posts stated, it's all about mass. I think two sheets of 5/8" drywall for your walls should be the minimum. That is what I did, but I used green glue in between sheets (if you can afford it). I have pretty good isolation, but the bass still gets through.

did you build a two leaf wall? maybe the bass is getting thru some sort of flanking path like an air duct, pipe etc?

[Bassmankr]

Like others have said, you angle the glass to cut down on light reflection glare (down angle so overhead light glare is less). The point of having a window is that you can see through it.

[Downsound]

Originally Posted by takman

did you build a two leaf wall? maybe the bass is getting thru some sort of flanking path like an air duct, pipe etc?

Sure, there's flanking. It's not a room within a room. It's based off of an existing structure. You just do the best you can with what you have to work with. Low frequencies are REALLY tough to isolate. It takes lots of mass and a mass-air-mass structure (like a room within a room). Overall, I'm pleased with the isolation I got, but when you turn it up, the bass always gets through. It's just the way it is.

[Demor]

Originally Posted by bassjam

You should have the thicker glass towards the loudest side.

OK, so we should put the thickest piece of glass on the CR side, because I have seen alot of clients/producers use all of the 12kW mains to the max.