SSL Mix Room in Frankfurt / Germany

[mobilemozart]

NOTE: We've only realized after opening this thread that we're still in the "design phase" of the project and we've opened another thread in "Studio construction & acoustics", hoping to get a lot of input on the design.

SSL Mix Room in Germany (Design Thread)

This thread here will stick to the photo diary!

Hi GS,

It's about time to present the project I'm currently planning with my friends and partners and I'd be delighted to receive a lot of input and feedback from you!

A few words about myself: my name is Marc and I'm running a production company called Mozart & Friends based in Germany. We're about 10 people, mostly songwriters and producers. We work with both major and Indie-Labels in all big territories. If you want to know more, check out the link in my signature.

We have rented a room in the ground floor of a small building. In the basement of the building right underneath us is a club (discothek) that is making noise from Wed to Sat starting around 10pm (The noise is actually no concern to us. We can hear the club when it's open, but we usually stop working before 10pm. The noise from the club still allows mixing.).
Above us there an office where people work during normal work hours.

The room is roughly 11,50 m x 5,90 m. The ceiling height is 3,10 m. The room has one door leading to the outside, and another one to the entrance hallway of the house. There are two windows on one of the long sides. The floor is solid concrete.

We're planning to build a room in a room with a size of 7,00 m x 5,70 m (average) and a ceiling height of 2,70 m. The room will have two doors and one window to the outside.

The room will be used for mixing and producing as well as vocal recording (no booth required). We're listening at loud levels about 20% of the time, going right to the edge of what our main speakers can deliver.

The center piece of the mix room will be a Solid State Logic SL4048G Inline Mixing Console. We have a small collection of nice outboard incl. AMS RMX16, DMX15-80, Retro Sta-Level and Summit TLA-100A Tube Compressors, some UREI Comps, Lexicon 224 Reverb as well as some Keyboard Stuff including Moog Voyager, Roland Jupiter 6, Roland Fantom X8, Roland V-Synth.

The DAW is a Mac Pro 8-Core running Logic Pro 9. Converters are SSL Alpha-Link (48 Channels AD/DA + 24 Channels AES Digital + 24 Channel ADAT Optical) driven by the SSL MADI Xtreme 128 PCIe Card. We have another pair of A/D in the Neve 1073 Mic Pre that we use to record vocals, mostly with a Sony C800G.

Main monitors are a pair of B&W 802D Diamond Speakers and Dynaudio BM6A / Yamaha HS-50 as Nearfields. We have at this point planned to do Surround Work, although our Console is Capable of LCRS panning and 5.1 / 7.1.

The studio will only be used by our inhouse team of producers and writers and there are no plans to make it available to rent for outside people.

Before we got the room, it was used as a private storage room over many years and we had to obtain a build permission from the city in order to start the project and use the room for a business.

The build permission has recently been granted, we had to hire an architect to fill out all the forms and to draw up a rough plan of what we're going to do.

This is pretty much a DIY-project, me and some of my team of people will do most of the building work.

We have a pretty good idea of what we want to do, but we're still at the beginning of working out how to do it exactly.

Next up we'll post some of our current drawings and of course some photos of the room.

[elmolemon]

Sounds good!

It's great to see a german studio construction thread!

I'm looking forward to see the plans. Good luck for your project!

[mobilemozart]

Here's a rough idea of the layout including the console and main speakers. Listening position is at 38% of the room length.

[mobilemozart]

Here are some current pictures of the room. For those who are interested, I can post some pics of the console later on. We have used the wait time for the build permission to bring the console up to specs. We've cleaned the all the surfaces with a toothbrush and isopropyl-alcohol and added the red costum trim. It looks better than new.

2/3rds of the room will be filled with our room in a room construction, for orientation we put the console roughly where it will be once the room is finished.
The floor is very solid concrete and does hardly resonate, even if the discotheque in the basement plays loud levels.
The ceiling is a wooden construction, not very strong. You can clearly hear people walking upstairs.

[elmolemon]

Thanks for posting the pics.

I'm by no means an expert, but as you posted the plan i feel free to comment on what i see.

The first thing that caught my attention is, that you've got a nice control-room size, even after you've built your room-in-room construction. This is great, as you'll have a much better starting-point for the room acoustics opposite to smaller rooms and enough space for your SSL the rest of the gear!

Then i wondered, why you wouldn't angle the sidewalls, as you might benefit acoustically if it is planed right, but then i realized, that one of the sidewalls actually IS angled. But as far as i know (correct me if i'm wrong) controlroom-symmetry is very important and i'm not sure if you should give up the possibility to built both walls angled to the same degree (or both walls straight), even if you loose some room. On the other hand, if you did, i might be better to have the console on the other side of the control-room due to the acute angle, which on the other hand might cause problems treating the "new" rearwall because of the doors and the window. I guess this is the reason to build it this way, but again i'm no expert and maybe you could explain, why you chose to built it this way.

Further the door to the terrace is exactly at one of the early reflection points. How do you plan to treat it and what's the reason that the window behind the console is placed asymmetrical? In my former room i had an asymmetrically placed window behind my speakers and it always looked and felt strange.

Besides all of that i think this will turn out to be a great place to work! Especially with lots of DIY involved it will feel great to start working there. Btw are you working with a studio designer or did you do the planing for yourself?

[mobilemozart]

Thanks! Really appreciate your input!

I have just updated the drawings. The Window behind the console was actually a mistake. We don't need a window there. Instead we will hang a big 60" Flatscreen on the wall between the speakers.
I also wanna put up your idea to discussion to turn the console around 180 degrees as I don't see any reasons not to turn it around.
Maybe it was the thought of having daylight come in from the left and also being able to see the entry door from the mix position.

Here's the reason why angled sidewalls aren't included in this concept... this room is rented, we don't own the building. So if we ever have to leave the building, we wanna be able to just leave and not tear down the entire construction.
Of course we are thinking about huge basstraps etc. or in other words additional walls in the corners once the main walls have been build.

I'm just putting these two updated drawings up for discussion. Some further ideas we have been thinking about:
- to float the area behind the console (speaker area) to run cables underneath
- to do heavy bass-trapping at the rear-wall, like a meter of rock wool or acoustic hangers covered by a "false wall" (fabric). Just something thats so massive that not much bass is coming back from that wall.

[judah]

Honestly, I don't think the SSL came cheap, so in your shoes I'd hire a studio designer to at least insure a good control room acoustic. But that'd be me...

Good luck.

[mobilemozart]

Originally Posted by judah

Honestly, I don't think the SSL came cheap, so in your shoes I'd hire a studio designer to at least insure a good control room acoustic. But that'd be me...

Good luck.

Thanks, a bit of luck is certainly needed for this project.

We're doing this project on a budget and - especially once the console was bought - a studio designer wasn't an option.

Budget-wise, we're very careful with every single step we're taking.

And we enjoy doing it ourselves!!!

PS: Plan changed - a studio designer is an option.

[elmolemon]

I think turning the console is at least worth considering, as there IS an angled sidewall (the red ones are the ones you want to build, right?) and having an acute angle in the frontside corner isn't the best in term of acoustic/reflection, which is why most of the controlroom-designs with angles walls get more broad in the back of the room.

Nonetheless, i'd ask an studio designer if it even makes sense to build only one of the (red) walls angled or if it would be better to build both of them straight if there isn't enough space to build both of them angled to the same degree. And if I recall correct the walls should (depending on the actual design of the room) be angled at least 6 (??) degrees each to be acoustically useful to defeat flutter-echo and help creating a reflection-free-zone at the sweet spot.

But if you would turn the console, you would have problems treating the "new" rearwall adequate because of the doors in the corner. And you definitely should build a huge basstrap in the back. But again it would make sense to ask a pro about it, because a trap consisting of several layers of different materials with airgaps will be much much more efficient than just stocking one meter of rockwool in the back of the room!

Therefore i think judah is right and due to the fact that you are actually planing to put up (the red) walls to isolate the room and this should be a pro-SSL-console-facility it would be the best to get a pro involved. If one actually starts building a room-in-room-construction instead of just putting up acoustic-treatment to already existing walls is it probably cheaper in the end to get something pro from the start instead of spending lots of money over the time to work out the flaws of the original build. You have a really nice space over there and it would be a shame if it wouldn't be able to live up to its best.

Nonetheless if the budget is tight, there is much much knowledge available in books and also in the web, but it's very hard to evaluate what is useful for the own room, as everything depends on so many factors. But if you go on your own (RocknRoll!! ) you should definitely buy lots of books and spend lots of time figuring out what would work best with the given budget as it is very had to change something once the room-in-room-build is finished.

Concerning the plans again, i guess uneducated (!) as i am, i would go for a straight sidewall instead of the angled one in the plan to achieve a more predictable rectangular room as the console is probably to large to angle both walls adequate (which i generally would prefer), keep the console in its original position, angle the ceiling, treat the hell out of the sidewalls and especially the rearwall and evaluate everything with many many measurements.

EDIT:

And don't you even think about listening to me, as i have no idea what i'm talking about! :D

[judah]

Originally Posted by mobilemozart

Thanks, a bit of luck is certainly needed for this project.

We're doing this project on a budget and - especially once the console was bought - a studio designer wasn't an option.

Budget-wise, we're very careful with every single step we're taking.

And we enjoy doing it ourselves!!!

Hey Mozart, I'm sure you'll enjoy designing and buildin' it yourself. I'm on the same path here, but it sounds a bit "lack of word here" to buy an SSL that I suspect was in the neighborhood of a few tens of thousand of whatever currency and then tryin and guess at a control room to house it.

That's just my thinking. If I were you I'd build a box, the biggest you can make it fit and can work in, whatever measures they are, just stay clear from doubles and triples. Put the gear in. Trap the corners and most of the ceiling. Kill some reflection points. Call it a day. Go work on music. If you buy materials and build it on your own it will probably cost you no more than a few SSL channels. Once you're ready for bigger premises, hire a designer.

You won't have a top class control room, but you can work around flaws once you're set up and know how your room sounds.

In the end, I don't thing there's a point in asking on a forum like GS for advices on this kind of issues. You either hire a designer or you go for the easiest setup you can put in your room and go back to recording and mxiing in a matter of weeks.

But anyway, wish you good luck with your project. Thumbs up.

[judah]

Oh BTW Mozart, to hire John Sayers would cost you very very little money. I mean, we're talking about a 1 room setup. I'd guess about a couple SSL channels. That plus all materials (walls, floor, electrical, doors, windows) will be (to the better of my knowledge after having gone thru so many pricelist for the past few months) around 10.000€. That is if you do everything by yourself, including building doors and windows and wiring all the electrical. I'd be very surprised if you can do it all for less.

Just ask John and if you're not happy with the quote move forward. I was happy with the quote he gave me a few months ago. Very very affordable. We then decided to postpone our relocation but for sure will get back to John once we'll be ready. At least you have someone on your back that can help you out. You can still build the room by yourself with a substantial saving, but the design part is what scares me the most.

[inlinenl]

great console .. not so great plan .. you know a chat/quote on a designer/advise is for free ... get a good plan ... decide how much you want to spend on the room .. tell the designer the budget .. he should make a tailor-fit plan soundwise & moneywise ..

if you aim for high-end as your web says , you should def. get a designer involved .. he does not have to build it for you ... enjoy .. I envy your console ... ( put it in a great room ) you'll have to work there for a few years , make it good ...

thumbsup

[judah]

I had 5 minutes to throw out the window and put down a sketchup. The first of probably a hundred if it was me. Just to give a different perspective.

But call John. Or Mr.Lachot. Or Thomas from Northward. Or Mr.Gervais. Or Gullfo. Call someone. Get a quote. Is free. Send them your sketchup with exact measures and everythign that might be important. Pillars, windows, doors. Do it for yourself. You'll sleep better at night.

And again, good luck.

[mobilemozart]

Thanks a lot for the sketchup - you rock!

Originally Posted by judah

I had 5 minutes to throw out the window and put down a sketchup. The first of probably a hundred if it was me. Just to give a different perspective.

But call John. Or Mr.Lachot. Or Thomas from Northward. Or Mr.Gervais. Or Gullfo. Call someone. Get a quote. Is free. Send them your sketchup with exact measures and everythign that might be important. Pillars, windows, doors. Do it for yourself. You'll sleep better at night.

And again, good luck.

[mobilemozart]

...just posted two new sketchup in the newly started design thread:

SSL Mix Room in Germany (Design Thread)

[mobilemozart]

Thank you all for your input. We hear you.

I have an announcement to make: we're proud to be working with Studio Designer & Consultant John H. Brandt for our project.

Check out his website: JH Brandt - Recording Studio Design/Consulting, Acoustics & Electronics

We'll post regular updates of the planning phase here:

SSL Mix Room in Germany (Design Thread)

Photo Diary will stay here.

[mobilemozart]

For those who are curious about our SSL console.

Here's the story (with many pictures of the refurb process):
Video: buying a SSL 4000 G-Series Mixing Console

[mikahanau]

Ah, nice to see another Studio built in frankfurt, since my studio is also located in Frankfurt.

cheers
Mika