Outland Studios, Ireland

[steveyraff]

Hey guys,

I've recently been looking for a 4 bedroom house. I had planned on turning 2 rooms into a live room and a control room.

However, recently I've been made a proposition. My father owns a small farm that has always been in the family. He has kindly offered to convert a barn into a liveable space. Knowing that I am pretty broke, he has offered to invest in my business plan and build the studio for me in this space. Afterwards, when business starts coming in, I can think about paying him back.

Anyways, although my father is himself an Architect, he really isn't any kind of expert on acoustics as such. I have a great opportunity here that I think I may take. However, I am by no means arrogant. I realise that the stupidest part of this plan is my lack of experience. I have a degree and a diploma in music technology and music production, but I have only been studying it this last 5 or 6 years and still have a world of knowledge to learn about.

This is where I need you guys. This is NOT going to be an extravagant project. It is NOT going to be a high budget build. It is going to be a space that has rooms up to the standard of that found in a regular house. However, if I am doing this, I may as well get it right from the very start. I can not afford anything too aesthetically fancy, but I am sure there are things you guys can advise me to do during the build and construction, that will make my Studio more practical.

We are currently messing around with plans and ideas. It is one long barn, divided up into three sections. This means there will be 3 rooms in-line. Picture a rectangle divided equally into 3 Thirds. One will be the live room, the other a control room, and the third section will be converted into a reception area which will be more like a chill out room, with kitchen facilities and a small toilet.

I would like a small sound proof window between the control room and the live room. Because of the layout, the door into the live room will most likely have to be in the control room... so advice on sourcing or making soundproofed doors will be appreciated.

One thing I am particularly keen for advice on is room dimensions i.e ideal ceiling heights etc. Another thing I am wondering about is angles. I had thought that for acoustics, it might be a good idea to angle some walls or ceilings and avoid any surfaces running parallel? I have already invested in a lot of acoustic treatment and absorption in the form of 20 meters squared of acoustic foam tiling, and a number of home made bass traps. Obviously, I already own almost all of the studio equipment to install when building is completed so I need no advice on that.

I guess, I am just looking for any construction/build tips anyone has to offer that will not be much more expensive than it would be to renovate a barn into regular rooms like those found in an average house.

I know a lot of people put much thought into the flooring, making things such as a floating floor. Unfortunately, this idea is a little out of my budget. I have a budget of a little over £3000 ($5000 USD), so this is by no means a big scale project. My father is an architect, my father in law is a joiner and plasterer and I have other relatives who are plumbers and electricians, so I guess the budget can all be allocated to materials. I am just afraid of making silly mistakes, or missing the opportunity to construct something I could have made much better with the same amount of money if I'd only known better.

My father is currently drawing up some plan ideas. When they come in I will make sure to post them for you guys to have a look over.

Many thanks for your time and ideas guys. Great to have a knowledgeable community to turn to at times like this!

[toma28]

hi just raed your post and i think i might be able to help i did a betech in music tech and did a lot on studio steups what you need to do is have om of the walls on a angle of 45 degrees and sometimes it also helps to have metearl as well in terms of the window you wont it needs to be triple galzed and the three pains of glass need to be diffrent thinknesses and the two outer pains also need to be on a sloght angle leve tha celin as it is and carpit tha floor try abd get fire doors and wetsute rubber for the control room most commen will be a live end dead end the end neer the spekers live and all behind whare you are siting dead if you wont any other help email me tom.attwood@hotmail.com

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by toma28

hi just raed your post and i think i might be able to help i did a betech in music tech and did a lot on studio steups

no offence mate but before you start telling people where to place their cash, you might want more than a few lessons in college... this post of yours is a bit all over the place.

what you need to do is have om of the walls on a angle of 45 degrees

What? 45 degrees? You'll lose half the room!!

Wall at an angle? Yes. 45 degrees? errr... no!

and sometimes it also helps to have metearl as well

Did they teach you to spell on your B-TEC?

I think you're referring to MATERIAL!!

in terms of the window you wont it needs to be triple galzed

In fact, triple glazing a window can be very effective for sound proofing, if you are not up for building a studio window yourself.

and the three pains of glass need to be diffrent thinknesses

not true. at all.

and the two outer pains also need to be on a sloght angle

This can help, yes. But there's many studios who don't do that, and report no issues. 3 vertical panes in an airtight enclosure will be far more efficient than 3 angled panes in an unsealed enclosure, for instance.

leve tha celin as it is and carpit tha floor

Again, not true. At all!! What was this B-TEC?!

Ceilings can be as acoustically troublesome as floors and walls. Every case needs to be judged individually, you can't make blind statements like that!

try abd get fire doors and wetsute rubber

What he means is try and get good thick doors and neoprene strips. The neoprene strips will allow you to seal the door shut, which will create an airlock. An airlock door is considerably more soundproof than just buffing it up with rockwool. Stickyback Neoprene is pretty easy to get hold of in long strips.

for the control room most commen will be a live end dead end the end neer the spekers live and all behind whare you are siting dead

Again, completely untrue. Case by case basis on control rooms! You can't make sweeping statements like that without seeing the space!

if you wont any other help email me

if that's an introduction to your acoustic services, I wouldn't bother!

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by steveyraff

We are currently messing around with plans and ideas. It is one long barn, divided up into three sections. This means there will be 3 rooms in-line. Picture a rectangle divided equally into 3 Thirds. One will be the live room, the other a control room, and the third section will be converted into a reception area which will be more like a chill out room, with kitchen facilities and a small toilet.

honest opinion? for the kitchen, get a sink, a kettle, a fridge / freezer and a microwave. Anything more, and a drunk bunch of idiots known as a band will likely burn the place down.

I would like a small sound proof window between the control room and the live room. Because of the layout, the door into the live room will most likely have to be in the control room... so advice on sourcing or making soundproofed doors will be appreciated.

You really need to make a double door. (not double doors like you get on big buildings. Like, one leading to another). A single door will have little effect, unless it's a GBFO studio door that looks like it came off a nuclear bunker. And will eat your £3k budget by itself. If the wall size means you can only fit one door onto, you may wish to think about building a second wall over the top of it (probably in live room side). You can do this by building a wooden frame and filling the cavity with dense rock wool (will add to isolation properties). What you put over the top is basically dependent on what you want the room in question to sound like. If it's in the live room side, and you want a lively sound, you might want to consider plasterboard or laminate wood. If you want a dead sound, you might want to consider a fabric cover, to allow the rockwool to absorb sound rather than reflecting it.

One thing I am particularly keen for advice on is room dimensions i.e ideal ceiling heights etc. Another thing I am wondering about is angles. I had thought that for acoustics, it might be a good idea to angle some walls or ceilings and avoid any surfaces running parallel? I have already invested in a lot of acoustic treatment and absorption in the form of 20 meters squared of acoustic foam tiling, and a number of home made bass traps. Obviously, I already own almost all of the studio equipment to install when building is completed so I need no advice on that.

Your ceiling height is mostly set by a) the sound you're looking for, and b) what you've got to work with. I like big rock n roll drums, so I like live rooms with higher ceilings and the rafters out and everything covered in wood. The guy who does my mixing likes tight, over-processed pop drums and likes low ceilings and dead rooms to reduce the character the room provides. Again, it's up to you to choose what you want, there is no 'set standard'.

I guess, I am just looking for any construction/build tips anyone has to offer that will not be much more expensive than it would be to renovate a barn into regular rooms like those found in an average house.

It can be very expensive but it can be very cheap. It really helps to do as much of the work yourself as possible as this reduces the cost of paying tradesmen. A lot of the stuff you'd think you need to get done for you is actually quite simple to DIY. Ive seen a big shed converted into a very nice sounding drum room with Pro Tools LE for under a grand, and I've seen 10s of thousands spent on rooms that still sound awful! Key is - if you know what you want, and you know how to do it - or have the patience to find out and the nerve to try it, you can achieve a lot for a very little.

I know a lot of people put much thought into the flooring, making things such as a floating floor. Unfortunately, this idea is a little out of my budget. I have a budget of a little over £3000 ($5000 USD), so this is by no means a big scale project. My father is an architect, my father in law is a joiner and plasterer and I have other relatives who are plumbers and electricians, so I guess the budget can all be allocated to materials. I am just afraid of making silly mistakes, or missing the opportunity to construct something I could have made much better with the same amount of money if I'd only known better.

£3000 is do-able, although I'd say it equates to $3000 USD, as most material costs are cheaper there! But still, you should be able to get some good stuff together, especially if you do the great studio-owners thing and get all your friends / relatives to chip in and help you build it. I come from an area in England where everyone does trade jobs, so any work we've done on the studio has always been done at the best going price by one or other of my mates - who'll do it free for 2 days in the studio with their band!

My father is currently drawing up some plan ideas. When they come in I will make sure to post them for you guys to have a look over.

Do it, it's the way forward! Learn to use Sketchup, it's a really great tool for 3D stuff. It took me about 15 minutes to do a full 3D model of my room, including measurements, which is posted on this forum.

By the way, I see you're in Ireland. Is that NI (based on your price being in pounds?)?? It's not a difficult journey for me to get over there, I'd happily fly over for a few days if you want a hand or just take a look at the place and come up with some ideas? Just drop me a PM.

D

[steveyraff]

Wow, what a brilliant reply. This is all stuff that really will come in useful and I really can use. Thank you so much! I am very appreciative that you've put so much time into a reply!

Originally Posted by therealbigd

honest opinion? for the kitchen, get a sink, a kettle, a fridge / freezer and a microwave. Anything more, and a drunk bunch of idiots known as a band will likely burn the place down.

Noted! Well yes, there are the worries of giving deadheads more things to break lol. Mind you, keeping in mind that this is a low budget project, the living are won't have much more than you've mentioned anyways. It will be basic, but practical. I don't see the need for much more than you've stated. So I'm definitely with you on that one.

Originally Posted by therealbigd

You really need to make a double door. (not double doors like you get on big buildings. Like, one leading to another). A single door will have little effect, unless it's a GBFO studio door that looks like it came off a nuclear bunker. And will eat your £3k budget by itself. If the wall size means you can only fit one door onto, you may wish to think about building a second wall over the top of it (probably in live room side). You can do this by building a wooden frame and filling the cavity with dense rock wool (will add to isolation properties). What you put over the top is basically dependent on what you want the room in question to sound like. If it's in the live room side, and you want a lively sound, you might want to consider plasterboard or laminate wood. If you want a dead sound, you might want to consider a fabric cover, to allow the rockwool to absorb sound rather than reflecting it.

I am actually uploading pics of the area after this post so you will see what I mean about layout and where the doors have to go. Yea, as I suspected, a proper purpose made single door would cost a fortune in itself. I am worried about this part, if I don't get the door between the live room and the control room right, it will make the whole thing unworkable. I have a whole load of rock wool and insulation that might come in useful for your other ideas. Also, I have quite a lot of masonite panelling that could be put to use.

Also, thanks very much for the info on ceiling heights. I guess that is something I am going to have to put a lot of thought into. I personally like a breathy rock sound - but considering I want to cater for all music types, that sound won't always be suitable. Maybe I need to look for what is the best option for a middle ground. Not too airy, not too dead. I'll have to look into this one a lot more.

Luckily, like you stated, I DO have a lot of relatives or friends who work in various trades. As well as this, myself and my father plan to do as much of the work as physically possible by ourselves. This should hopefully cut down on the costs quite substantially.

I got sketch-up but so far I do not have a clue how to get my head around it. However, I still have a mountain of things to think about - my head is a little fried with all this happening so suddenly. Within this last few days I am over coming initial fears and thinking about going ahead with this whole build project as it seems to be having more pros than cons. I am sure the more I become committed to choosing this option the more I will be working with serious planning ideas and I presume with all that my knowledge of Sketch Up will become better and I'll get some plans uploaded for everyone to see.
For now, old school drawn plans done by my father in the office will have to do - I'll scan the first ideas when we work ideas out.

Originally Posted by therealbigd

By the way, I see you're in Ireland. Is that NI (based on your price being in pounds?)?? It's not a difficult journey for me to get over there, I'd happily fly over for a few days if you want a hand or just take a look at the place and come up with some ideas? Just drop me a PM.

Yes, I am in Northern Ireland. This is a shockingly generous offer! But I really wouldn't put you out of your way so much over this. Although I must say, so far, your contributions have been highly valuable to me. I've really appreciated the help. As for seeing the place, don't worry about it, I will post photos of the old barn next. But hey, the thought didn't go unnoticed, thank you very much for even considering such a massive helping hand, you've already done more than enough!

Oh yes, and I guess its only polite to say thank you to Toma28 lol. Erm... you kind of scare me man, but at least you were trying to help haha. Perhaps english isn't your first language... at least I hope thats what the deal is there!

Many thanks to all who have viewed. I am not used to making such big decisions so it is really re-assuring to have help at hand and people to help me put such a project into a do-able perspective.

Thanks! !

[therealbigd]

also, forgot to mention that the interior wall within the live room could work out very much in your favour anyway. If you angle it, only slightly (not 45 degrees!) so perhaps it's 12" deep at the left wall and 8" deep at the right, you can remove a lot of the boxyness of the sound. Being honest, if you put a door in the new wall and the existing wall, and seal up the frame inbetween properly, and use a decent neoprene seal around both doors, you shouldn't have a problem with the doors. Adding an absorber panel down the outside of each door you can reduce it a bit better just because the door isn't vibrating.

Also, thanks very much for the info on ceiling heights. I guess that is something I am going to have to put a lot of thought into. I personally like a breathy rock sound - but considering I want to cater for all music types, that sound won't always be suitable. Maybe I need to look for what is the best option for a middle ground. Not too airy, not too dead. I'll have to look into this one a lot more.

2 sets of curtain rails (the type with string for pulling them open / shut), with a set of good blackout curtains attached to both curtain rails allows you to open and shut the ceiling as depending on what sound you want. Works nicely with rafters. Will see if I can find pics... but if not just imagine a set of curtains horizontally rather than vertically, attached to a rail at both ends to keep them horizontal. By pulling both strings the same amount, you can open and shut the curtains, opening up or closing the ceiling. Without rafters it's a bit of a pain, but with, it's easy. We did it for under £100 for an area just over the middle of the room, it's good for changing the sound of the drum overheads.

Yes, I am in Northern Ireland. This is a shockingly generous offer! But I really wouldn't put you out of your way so much over this. Although I must say, so far, your contributions have been highly valuable to me. I've really appreciated the help. As for seeing the place, don't worry about it, I will post photos of the old barn next. But hey, the thought didn't go unnoticed, thank you very much for even considering such a massive helping hand, you've already done more than enough!

Well if you do want me to, just let me know, it's not difficult and it's something that I do a fair bit for my other friends just to give them a hand.

[steveyraff]

So here are the first pictures of the basic structure I will be working with. It is by no means impressive and if anything, it will highlight just how much work has to be done in such a small budget. I guess this is why this studio isn't going to be the most impressive in the world, just something basic and practical.

EXTERIOR SHOT:

The front has a rolling shutter door as you can see. This is currently a garage and will be left that way. There is roughly 3 other spaces behind this garage conversion that I will be using. The old yard you can see at the left hand side will all be removed and tidied up. You can see two windows at the side. The first window is into the garage that I am not going near. The second window looks into what will be the reception/living area and just behind it you can make out a doorway which will be the main entrance.

MAIN ENTRANCE:


http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/t...%20BUILD/2.jpg

This is the main entrance as pointed out in the pic above. It will lead into the first room of 3, which will be the reception/living area.

INSIDE MAIN ENTRANCE. RECEPTION AREA/LOUNGE:

This is a shot of as you step into the doorway, looking to the right. You can see bare insulation covering what is the back wall of the garage. As you can see, there are no ceilings and it is open to the rafters and tin roof.

CONTROL ROOM ENTRANCE:

In the same lounge room as in the previous pic, taking a look to the left hand side as you enter, shows you the doorway to the rest of the building and into a space that I guess could be the Control Room. This is a solid block wall.

CONTROL ROOM SPACE:

Stepping through the doorway shown in the previous picture leaves you looking at this. You can pretty much see down the length of the entire shed from here. However, there is part of a solid block wall build about half way down dividing it up into two section. I am thinking this section can be a control room. It is quite a large space for a control room so it could be partitioned off to create a store room within the same space for equipment etc. Or perhaps another Iso Booth?

ENTRANCE TO LIVE ROOM:

This is a closer look at the partial wall separating the two spaces. I guess I would like a triple glaze window of some sort installed in this wall. I have been thinking of leaving the space to the left hand side for installing some kind of sound proofed door, or double doors into the live room?

LIVE ROOM:

Not much to say about this shot. Its the very end of the shed, the back outside wall shown. Its a pretty big space, looks a lot smaller in the pictures. It should be a reasonably good sized Live Room. I'd like to isolate a small corner for a vocal booth or something like that.

HEADING BACK OUT:

This pretty much highlights how much work might have to be done. The side of the live room are has this massive hole that doesn't seem worthy to even label a doorway in its current state! I'll probably build this up. However, I have to say, looking out of this there is a spectacular view looking out over the hills. I am guessing a window in a live room would be absolutely dreadful for acoustics? It would be beautiful to just have a huge pane of a glass there.

LOOKING FROM LIVE ROOM BACK DOWN TO LOUNGE:

Just a shot taken from me standing in the live room looking back down through the control room space - the doorway to the lounge area seen in the far distance. If you look at the outside wall along the side you will see that it is pretty un-even and in bad shape. It shouldn't matter much as there will be new wall surfaces placed in front of them, with some insulation in the space between.

As you can see, there are no ceilings on any part, so its up to me as to what height I want them set at. I kind of like the idea of having them slightly higher than normal then installing some sort of cloud fixtures. Advice on this idea is very welcomed.

CONTROL ROOM LOOKING BACK INTO LOUNGE:

I thought I should include this shot. It shows an exterior wall of the control room space. As you can see, it too has another doorway. I don't really see how this would ever be needed. I think I can safely say it can be built over and blocked up.

ENTRANCE BACK INTO LOUNGE:

This wall between the Control Room space and the Lounge space is already quite well built. It should only be a matter of adding to what is already there. I can't see us needing to tear down whats already there first.

Another thing I should mention is the flooring. It is in TERRIBLE shape. This was literally used to house cattle up until about 5 or 6 years ago. So its extremely muddy and the concrete is pretty tore up. The floor also seems to be in 3 different levels. Not enough for a step, but a ramp in the flooring will probably be unavoidable in at least 2 places. In general though, I think it might be in too bad of condition to just repair localised areas. I think large areas of it will have to have a complete new layer of concrete. As I said before, I can't afford anything extravagant like floating floors etc so this will have to do.

By the way, help and advice on angled walls would be appreciated. We have thought of building wooden frames, filled with rockwool or other insulation and covering with sheets of masonite. Then applying my acoustic treatment to the outside... something along those lines?

The place only needs to be acoustically 'treated'. Sound proofing to the outside world is not overly necessary as this is in a rural area with no other near by dwellings.

Well I hope this gives you a better idea of the small (but massive to me) project I am settling into the idea of embarking on. I will familiarise myself with sketch up and get other blueprint plans scanned and uploaded soon.

Again, all help, advice, suggestions, criticisms HIGHLY welcome. Many thanks for your time guys.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

no offence mate but before you start telling people where to place their cash, you might want more than a few lessons in college...

Listen to this guy...great advice. Disregard the first poster entirely...that was a scary post.

Frank

[steveyraff]

therealbigd: Again, brilliant update on your last post. This is all brilliant stuff, you are giving me lots of great ideas to think about and actually implement in the build. The curtains idea sounds very interesting. I must look more into that. If it worked it would be a cheap way of controlling room acoustics to a certain degree!

Weasel9992: Yea, that was scary wasn't it lol

Actually, maybe I should get a moderator to move this to the Photo Diary Section. Well, I guess I am just looking for help for now. When construction actually starts I could add a new thread over there.

By the way, I have some of the raw materials needed already laying around in storage. We have lots of masonite panels, plenty of various lengths of wood, and also some other useful stuff I've shown small samples of in these pics... various insulation and acoustic tiles. Just a little visual sample, we have plenty more where that came from.

[Jeffrey Hedback]

I actuallly thought the first post was a joke (no disrepect intended if it wasn't). If you haven't noticed Avare's signature phrase (search any of his posts), now is the time to take that heart.

That space has a GREAT deal of potential with what appears to be very high ceilings. But, you'll have to be wise with your plans to get the most out of the space.

All the best!

[avare]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hedback

I actuallly thought the first post was a joke (no disrepect intended if it wasn't). If you haven't noticed Avare's signature phrase (search any of his posts), now is the time to take that heart.

That space has a GREAT deal of potential with what appears to be very high ceilings. But, you'll have to be wise with your plans to get the most out of the space.

All the best!

+1 to everything to wrote.

The signature phrase is below. is below.

Andre

[Weasel9992]

Andre is echoing. is echoing.

Frank

[johndykstra]

In terms of the "middle ground" between open drums and tight drums.

Build the room to facilitate the open sound. It's much easier to alter the room with movable panels to make it more dead, than it is to simulate "air" in a dead room.

In terms of angled walls.

Build the walls of your room structure rectangular... to good ratios. Your ceiling may be vaulted, not allowing a square ceiling, but the more cubic space you can bring into the space the better. Given these options (free of structural limitations) I would rank ceilings as follows

8' level room ceiling, rafter area separated.

walls up to 8' ceiling sloped from there up an addition 6' of exposed rafters

chopping of the roof and making a 14' level ceiling.

Clearly, the 3rd option is rediculous, but it furthers the example that the more area the better, regardless of parallel.

Within the rooms walls, you can employ "false" walls, breathable to low frequencies with insulation behind for trapping, as to take advantage of the extra cubic space, but reflecting and absorbing high frequencies in a controlled manner. Parallel structural walls yield a far more predictable low frequency response.

This principle will allow for a far more traditional room framing construction, though some advanced principles implemented in sealing these walls should be taken into consideration for isolation purposes.

Good luck, it looks like it's going to be hella fun!

[therealbigd]

You've got a really nice looking space to work with there. To be honest, I wouldn't go halves and make it for £3,000... I'd make a start for £3,000 giving you something to work with, and keep it an ongoing project. It's an awesome space that some people would simply love the opportunity to work with and you should really make the most of it!

Looking at it, I'd definitely start with some construction work on the inside of the building! Soundproofing it is going to be important, as is putting a proper floor in. I'd probably go wood laminate on the live room and carpet in the control room - you should utilise the barn's natural, lively acoustics and the laminate floor will push that, but in the control room it'd be too lively to get an accurate monitoring environment.

Ive got a fair bit of free time at the moment, so if you can get some measurements of the building I'll draw you something up in a spare minute save me writing all these long descriptions!

[nukmusic]

[jhbrandt]

Stevey,

You will most likely need your father to design some trusses for the roofing so you can get rid of the posts. Also have him design it so you can vault the roof slightly.. as high as possible.

Ideally you should shoot for at least 11ft ceiling height.

For the best room dimensions plug in your numbers into either one of these mode calculators here:
http://javakustik.com/RoomModeCalculatorMETRIC.xls
http://javakustik.com/RoomModeCalculatorSAE.xls

It would benefit you greatly to buy Rod's book here. He as specific advise for your situation with some drawings. His chapter of studio doors is excellent.

By the way, placing absorbent on a door does nothing but absorb sound in the room in which it is placed... it does nothing for the TL of the door.

Cheers,
John

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

By the way, placing absorbent on a door does nothing but absorb sound in the room in which it is placed... it does nothing for the TL of the door.

Whilst your profession means I will trust you on that at theoretical level, in our studio we have an effective airlock between the studio doors but we noticed a drop in the levels of top end (particularly cymbals) when absorbers were placed on the live room side of the door.

As I said about 10 times across the course of my posts, the best way for everything is to try it and find out! Some of the best things you ever do in music will happen because you said 'I wonder what would happen if....' and it sounded great!

[jhbrandt]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

Whilst your profession means I will trust you on that at theoretical level, in our studio we have an effective airlock between the studio doors but we noticed a drop in the levels of top end (particularly cymbals) when absorbers were placed on the live room side of the door.

As I said about 10 times across the course of my posts, the best way for everything is to try it and find out! Some of the best things you ever do in music will happen because you said 'I wonder what would happen if....' and it sounded great!

Good for you. I agree that you should try it all.

But you have leaks in your seals.. or your doors are hollow core.
Cheers,
John

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Stevey,

You will most likely need your father to design some trusses for the roofing so you can get rid of the posts. Also have him design it so you can vault the roof slightly.. as high as possible.

Ideally you should shoot for at least 11ft ceiling height.

For the best room dimensions plug in your numbers into either one of these mode calculators here:
http://javakustik.com/RoomModeCalculatorMETRIC.xls
http://javakustik.com/RoomModeCalculatorSAE.xls

It would benefit you greatly to buy Rod's book here. He as specific advise for your situation with some drawings. His chapter of studio doors is excellent.

By the way, placing absorbent on a door does nothing but absorb sound in the room in which it is placed... it does nothing for the TL of the door.

Cheers,
John

Many thanks again to everyone! Everything above is going to be so useful to me.

Yes - we are installing new roof trusses. I hadn't thought about vaulting it yet but I guess if the general consensus is that it will sound a lot better then I could try to go for this in the live room anyway.

That book looks really useful, I had a look at the summary and it seems to be something I could really be doing with. I think that will be purchased today then!

I must again highlight though, this probably doesn't have a high enough budget to end up ideally designed and if anything I am just wanting a practical, liveable space that I can hopefully still afford to put a little specific design thought into.

Laminated floors in the live room would be really nice. I am not sure if anyone read my idea about installing an exterior window in the live room - its probably a terrible idea. But I am guessing having laminated floors, high ceilings etc is going to make sound treatment within the space even more difficult. Wouldn't that all leave it much more echoey in its natural untreated state?

Again, I'd like that book even for the chapter on doors. With having the door from the live room directly beside the desk in the control room, its going to be something I have to get right or the whole space won't work.

As dykstraster pointed out. Perhaps an option would be to just go with a rectangular non-angled design, and later implement false walls in areas that are more angled and non-parallel. At least that is what I think you meant?

Still lots and lots... and lots, to think about and consider. At least everyone here is making my head a little less overwhelmed and I am started to get a clearer picture on how things could go.

Therealbigd - I will gladly give you the measurements of the location. I can not do it today as I have a couple of live sound jobs and theatre productions to work on this next day or two. Should be with you early in the week though!

Again, can't thank everyone enough, all this advice and pointing me in the right direction is a huge help. Cheers!

Stevey.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

But you have leaks in your seals..

I had a feeling that might be the case.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by steveyraff

I must again highlight though, this probably doesn't have a high enough budget to end up ideally designed and if anything I am just wanting a practical, liveable space that I can hopefully still afford to put a little specific design thought into.

The thing is, you have a space with so much potential. Doing 'just enough to do some recording' would be a shame, as the space has all it needs to turn out a great studio!

Laminated floors in the live room would be really nice. I am not sure if anyone read my idea about installing an exterior window in the live room - its probably a terrible idea. But I am guessing having laminated floors, high ceilings etc is going to make sound treatment within the space even more difficult. Wouldn't that all leave it much more echoey in its natural untreated state?

Remember, lively doesn't necessarily mean echoey.

As it is, it might well echo less. But it might also sound horrible!

Particularly when doing acoustic instruments (like drums), the sound of the room will contribute to the recording AS MUCH as the sound of the instruments themselves.

Again, I'd like that book even for the chapter on doors. With having the door from the live room directly beside the desk in the control room, its going to be something I have to get right or the whole space won't work.

Does it really have to be that way though? Nothing says your desk has to be against the live room wall. In fact, looking at the space you have, if the live room is going to be the bigger of the spaces, I expect you will not want that. You should try and orientate it so the sound travels down the longer axis of the room.

Thus, my recommendation would be that the desk goes side-on to the control room wall, and the door to the live room goes at the back of the room. This way, it's out of the way of all your cabling, and reduces the chance of live room sound getting into what you're hearing at the desk.

I know it would be nice and 'traditional' to have a desk with the back of it facing the live room and a window allowing you to see straight over it and to the band. But the reality it, a window to the side of you doesn't make that much difference in terms of how you can communicate with the band, but if it makes the room sound better...!

[avare]

I must again highlight though, this probably doesn't have a high enough budget to end up ideally designed and if anything I am just wanting a practical, liveable space that I can hopefully still afford to put a little specific design thought into.

Read my tagline.

If you plan it well, you will have the maximum value from your from space. Ask John (dykstraster) about his experience about gaining knowledge and the effect on the studio. We want you to have the best possible.

Andre

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

But the reality it, a window to the side of you doesn't make that much difference in terms of how you can communicate with the band, but if it makes the room sound better...!

Please explain


Steve,

I must echo the sentiments of my fellow slutz. Long term.... if you build it, they will come. Right? IF you go top to bottom with the, what is it, $3k? You might have a studio on point with any other Joe Basement. Which is fine... but a shame.

You've been given an incredible opportunity to make something special. At least allow the plans to unfold at a natural pace, just to see where they go. Then make the call.

For the record, you understood me completely re: angled walls. The caviat being, if you follow therealbigd's advice about a CR window at your side, THAT wall with the window would need to be a true angled wall, with a very well thought out bounce pattern to make sure the reflections of that window doesn't smack you in the ear.

I like the idea of a window in the live room. Acoustically, hang some drapes, isolationally... raise your budget

seriously man, check out some financial avenues... AFTER you have some CAD or Sketchup drawings of the potential. Everyone has an old aunt that believes in them somewhere!

How do you feel about your potential for a client base?

[EDIT] In regards to Avare's statement, I spent a lot of money by building too quickly and not taking the time to design. I could have saved thousands. It wasn't until I got to the treatment level of the space did I have the glimpse of knowledge I have now, and I have spent next to nothing on the acoustics, by knowing what to look for, and how to repurpose things.[EDIT]

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

Please explain

OK

They say room's sound better if the sound goes down the length of them, rather than across the width of them. (Especially if you are lacking in money for acoustic treatment, like Stevey is!)

Therefore, my point was... you shouldn't sacrifice good sound in the Control Room for the purpose of putting the desk in front of the window so when sat at it you look into the live room, if you will get a better sound putting the desk side-on to the control room and just to have to turn your head each time you want to look at the band.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

I must echo the sentiments of my fellow slutz. Long term.... if you build it, they will come. Right? IF you go top to bottom with the, what is it, $3k? You might have a studio on point with any other Joe Basement. Which is fine... but a shame.

You've been given an incredible opportunity to make something special. At least allow the plans to unfold at a natural pace, just to see where they go. Then make the call.

That's what I was getting at.

In honesty, with the space you've been given, I'd see if I could find somebody else to set up with. If they can inject £3k too, you'll have £6k. Plus, with their existing kit, you'll end up with a larger array of audio equipment (which you'll need for the studio).

In essence, easiest way of putting it.

You have the equipment and budget of a Hobbyist Basement Studio.
You have the building with potential to be a Superb Professional Studio

so unless you want to make your superb professional building a reasonable hobbyist basement, you need to get your budget and kit up to superb professional standard! And it's not as hard, nor expensive, as you might think!

For the record, you understood me completely re: angled walls. The caviat being, if you follow therealbigd's advice about a CR window at your side, THAT wall with the window would need to be a true angled wall, with a very well thought out bounce pattern to make sure the reflections of that window doesn't smack you in the ear.

This is true. But it's been done in our place to great effect. Though yes, I do forget that's an expensive way of going as it does need to be though out.

[johndykstra]

Let's forget about gear entirely, as it has no bearing on initial construction expense... with the exception being the monitors. It is of great benefit to design a control room around the behavior of a good set of main monitors.

If you do know of another engineer, or even a band that needs a place to practice, there are some benefits of teaming up, given that appropriate paperwork is in place for protection's sake.

The front or side window location is not where the benefits of acoustics lie, it's within the length orientation of the room... agreed? I may have missed something in the pictures, but I don't think we have that limitation yet... Again, I may have overlooked something, but that place is huge and relatively empty, and if that limitation is regarding an already existing wall, it's likely not on an angle currently, and will need to be removed. This design is an infant, and I think this is a down the road decision.

A current layout with dimensions is needed to truly get started.

Steve,

Look at the big picture, and don't get focused on the cost until we can get a grasp of what it would actually cost. A few decent sized projects can recoup quite a bit. You've already got an incredible starting point. And even investing what you have into a good sized great live room with the appropriate measures taken to tie infrastructure into a full facility, you could easily start as a one room studio, and build the rest as you can afford and design it. Do it in baby steps yeah?

John

[therealbigd]

Important Note

I forgot to mention this before but it is definitely worth doing. You are in GB so I know that this definitely applies because it has struck so many of my friends in the back end before.

If you wish to make it a commercial recording studio, ie people give you money, you give them music, you need to get planning permission to make a studio inside it. A lot of people think planning permission is only required to build stuff, and not required to convert barns into recording studios.

If you built it to record your own band in or your mates bands for free, there wouldn't be an issue, but if you want to make the studio a business then it will be required, and any neighbours that live around you will be asked if they have any objections. Unfortunately, countryside people tend to think that recording studios will mean in their living room 3 miles away it'll be like standing on stage next to Motorhead 24/7, and object without even thinking about it. A lot of countryside people don't even read what the planning permission is for and just object to it because they are grumpy snobs who hate for anybody to be happy.

It would be a right kick in the teeth if you spent your £3k (or more) making a mega studio only to find you weren't allowed to use it.

I'd put that on the priorities list!

[steveyraff]

Excellent food for thought, great responses. I will try to answer as many points as I can for now.

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

You will most likely need your father to design some trusses for the roofing so you can get rid of the posts. Also have him design it so you can vault the roof slightly.. as high as possible. Ideally you should shoot for at least 11ft ceiling height.

Actually, I discussed this with him and he said he has to have a closer look at the trusses already visible in some of the photos, but he thinks they will be up to standard as they are, and the vertical posts are actually un-necessary and the remnants of old makeshift cattle pens. Panelling over the gradient of the roof up until the point of the horizontal trusses, then going across at this point, should leave us near the 11 ft mark. Do you think it might be wiser to only have the ceiling at this full height in the Live Room area, or would it be suitable throughout the build ?

Originally Posted by therealbigd

The thing is, you have a space with so much potential. Doing 'just enough to do some recording' would be a shame, as the space has all it needs to turn out a great studio!

You have the equipment and budget of a Hobbyist Basement Studio.
You have the building with potential to be a Superb Professional Studio

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

you could easily start as a one room studio, and build the rest as you can afford and design it. Do it in baby steps yeah?

I realise there is a lot of posts, and probably will be a lot of posts, about how I have a great opportunity, a blank canvas that most of you would just love to have, and that it feels like I have the potential to do something spectacular - and it may seems frustrating that with this in mind, I am still setting a relatively low bar with a small budget. It IS frustrating, and it is frustrating for myself. To be extremely honest, I don't really deserve an amazing studio as I have only been at this 5 or 6 years and I am still learning a lot everyday - implementing state of the art design features may seem like subtle advantages to my ears.

The other point of view is that I should be making the most of this as you guys suggest, take it in baby steps and slowly build it up into the best I can do, rather than rush into it. This way, as my experience and career in this field progresses, I will grow into the studio, and I will appreciate the things I made sure to do at the early design stages. But this is why I am here, and this is why I am asking those with greater knowledge and experience. Perhaps my budget can be stretched a little further if I take my time at this and have a little patience.

On idea I've had is to crack on with the live room and control room areas, leave the lounge area totally untouched for now. It seems to me that it will be that whole area which does not need any special design features and will only need some aesthetic attention. I can have a fully operational studio before that area is even started in reality. After all, smaller studios do not even have an area like that - its a bit of a luxury item.

Originally Posted by therealbigd

If you wish to make it a commercial recording studio, ie people give you money, you give them music, you need to get planning permission to make a studio inside it. A lot of people think planning permission is only required to build stuff, and not required to convert barns into recording studios.

Luckily, this IS one thing that I am on top of. This is exactly my fathers area of expertise. He deals with these cases on a daily bases for his work. So he knows things we can and can not get away with in terms of building regulations. Neighbours is not an issue. It is a rural area and he stipulates that you only have to worry about those living within a 90 meter radius. 90 meters doesn't even take you outside of our own farmland surrounding the barn.

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

seriously man, check out some financial avenues... AFTER you have some CAD or Sketchup drawings of the potential. Everyone has an old aunt that believes in them somewhere!

How do you feel about your potential for a client base?

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

Look at the big picture, and don't get focused on the cost until we can get a grasp of what it would actually cost. A few decent sized projects can recoup quite a bit.

Location and competition... Well this is something I have been putting a lot of thought into. Northern Ireland is a relatively small area. I have done a lot of studying maps and looking at the main areas and cities clients are likely to come from, the easiest routes to my location from those locations, and most importantly, my proximity to other popular and successful recording studios in Northern Ireland. I believe a lot of younger bands simply go to the closest, so I would be making life hard for myself if I was doing this near by others.

My initial idea, before this offer all arose in the first place, was to rent a 4 bedroom house in town and change two of the rooms into a studio etc. Not ideal by any means but it was all I had going for me at the time. The idea was good for location as the town is one of the biggest in the country, and is right between the two major cities, just over an hours drive from each. So it seemed nice and central. The only part I do not like about this new location idea, is that its on my homeplace farm land. It is at least 10 miles outside of that town, so it is not as straightforward to get to, and it isn't as convenient. However people seem to assure me that if my promotion has made a band interested, and they are paying to record with me, they are gonna go find the place by all means necessary. I just worry about location really.

In saying that, studying my competition carefully, makes me amazed at how some studios here have became so popular. One guy is quite popular and is basically running a glorified bedroom set up, from a small terraced town house. Another guy is running out of his converted living room in a location twice as rural and isolated as mine - and seems to be constantly busy. I have modest but quality equipment, and comparing our equipment lists I definitely have the edge in that department.

Anyways, long story short, there will be location issues, but I feel confident. I am a bit of a sceptic at heart so I can be relentlessly realistic at times, some times too much so - but I can't see how I don't have a good change of being relatively successful. If I can just pay the bills I'd be happy for a start.
I guess another advantage is, if this doesn't prove a huge 'COMMERCIAL' success, it isn't the end of the world. It would be much worse if I was relying on it in a rented property. This way, during any unfortunate periods of downtime, I don't have to worry, its would be mine, and it would be permanent.


Well thats my location rant down, and I hope I answered as best I could to how I feel about my client base !


I like the baby steps method though, it would be good if I could use this £3k to get up and running yet keep it a work in progress. If that would somehow be possible.

I am going to go out to the Barn today hopefully and take some measurements for those who were interested in those details. Hope I answered all questions and ideas. Thanks for keeping interest in my project and for all the help so far!

Stevey.

[johndykstra]

Cheers man,

Seems like you have a realistic outlook.

I'll say it again, allow ideas to develop, and start saying whoa when something is extravagant, (I don't think a window in the live room is BTW... good inspiration).

Designing just the live room and control room is a good start, but let me point out, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot in regards to infrastructure. I would look ahead and plan a few cable runs to and from the "lounge"... just in case. this really just means build for now but plan for the future. Again, even if you get everything planned, and can only finish the live room within budget, it sounds like you're already ahead of the competition. Isolation whilst tracking is over rated anyway.


There's kinda two threads like this right now, one that's awesome and one that's awesome, but only for a chuckle.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by steveyraff

Luckily, this IS one thing that I am on top of. This is exactly my fathers area of expertise. He deals with these cases on a daily bases for his work. So he knows things we can and can not get away with in terms of building regulations. Neighbours is not an issue. It is a rural area and he stipulates that you only have to worry about those living within a 90 meter radius. 90 meters doesn't even take you outside of our own farmland surrounding the barn.

I would definitely check that with the local council.

We don't have any neighbours within 90 metres but we're not allowed to do any external modifications to the studio, outside the normal allowance of 8m on the 'rear wall' of the building.

I appreciate it's your father's trade, but I'm speaking as somebody working in a countryside studio similar to your location and thus the 2 probably share a bit in common.