Outland Studios, Ireland

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

There's kinda two threads like this right now, one that's awesome and one that's awesome, but only for a chuckle.

The other one makes my day more fun.

This one makes my day more productive.

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

I would definitely check that with the local council.

We don't have any neighbours within 90 metres but we're not allowed to do any external modifications to the studio, outside the normal allowance of 8m on the 'rear wall' of the building.

I appreciate it's your father's trade, but I'm speaking as somebody working in a countryside studio similar to your location and thus the 2 probably share a bit in common.

Yea I will check it out with him. I am not worrying too much about it as I know he will keep me right as we go and make sure nothing goes out of bounds. He is head of the county council planning department - its his field.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by steveyraff

Yea I will check it out with him. I am not worrying too much about it as I know he will keep me right as we go and make sure nothing goes out of bounds. He is head of the county council planning department - its his field.

Fair enough, the rules must be slightly different where we are to where you are.

At least you have that under control, I've seen that put many a person right in the brown stuff.

Also like the story of Cream Studios in London - fantastic studio, fantastic spec, really nice place. Planning Permission was fine, but they never did any research on their loud-factory neighbours!

[steveyraff]

Today was scary and exciting all at once. Myself, my girlfriend, my parents and even my 86 year old grandfather went to the barn and began clearing it out, removing all the rubbish and various items kept their for storage, prepared it for cleaning and took our first measurements.

It was very scary as it was basically my first commitment to "ok, now I am really going to do this", but at the same time, I found that quite exhilarating and very exciting. It felt very supportive having my family help me. My grandfather is 86, hasn't had the farm in operation for about 10 years now... but loves the opportunity to do any kind of work around it, no matter how unorthodox, so he lit up at the chance to help, so we gave him a few easier little things to do to keep him happy. He really couldn't fathom my plan when he heard what we were doing, or understand any logic behind it lol Generation differences!

Sorry, back to business !

MEASUREMENTS:

We measured the location properly. My father is drawing up some accurate plans tomorrow. Against my fathers wishes to wait until tomorrow - I was too excited so I have went ahead and done some quick pencil sketches with measurements included. I just took some pics of the sketches with my phone and have attached them to this post for you guys to check out if you are interested.

FLOORS:

We measured the surface area of the floors and tomorrow we are also going to price how much it will be to fill it with a new layer of concrete. As stated, a floating floor is going to be really out of our budget, but from the attached pictures, you can see just how badly ripped up the current floor is. It is beyond the point of repairs, it needs a total new layer. I am hoping when we price this tomorrow it won't take too much out of the over all budget.

CEILINGS:

We talked about the roof trusses earlier. I have attached new pictures of the current roof. Actually, 7 years ago, during a bad storm, the tin roof lifted. After that, the wood work was completely replaced. Now, rather than trusses, it has collar ties. It doesn't need to be replaced, its roughly 7 years old. The tin work needs to be patched up and water sealed in areas before interior work continues in that area. If we bring the ceiling max. height across the collar ties, it will be about 2.88m, nearly 11 feet - a height that was quoted as recommendable earlier.

I have also shown the beautiful scenery in looking out the side and back of the barn. This is why I would love a large window placed on the left side of the live room if it would be acoustically possible. Seems like a waste since there is already a doorway there, rather than block it over - glaze it over?

Another thing to mention, in storage in the barn, was a dozen or more old doors. Some of them, which I have taken a picture of, are solid thick wood, roughly an inch and a half thick. They weigh enough that two people found them tricky enough to manoeuvre. I am wondering if they may be able to be put into good use? Again, pics attached.

As you can see in my rough sketch, I have a dotted line through the centre of the control room. Its about 3 meters down from the wall between it and the live room. The reason I have this line measured on the sketch, is that on the flooring, there is a slight step at this point. If it seemed useful for any reason, It could be divided at this point to create either a storage room or an isolation booth... then have a short corridor up the left hand side joining all 3 rooms together.

I should also state, there is another slight step in the live room (pic attached), but if we put in a new layer of concrete, it will be levelled over.

One final note to make that is not included in my sketches. At the doorway between the lounge room and the control room, there is a substantial step. After the control room has a new floor surface put down, the step will be about 9 inches high.

On the sketch, at the lower right hand side of the lounge, there is a small window and a sewer line runs right outside it. Its pretty ideal to section off for a small lavatory. There is also lines running outside this wall making it ideal to put a sink in this room too. Coincidentally, while removing rubbish out of the barn, we came across a really nice full sink unit in really good condition.

Thats all for now. I am getting really excited about this commitment made today. I apologise for any ranting or poor spelling, truth be told, we are all just back from a celebratory Guinness after the days work, so blame it on that!

More to follow soon.

[steveyraff]

A few more, and rough plan sketches...

[johndykstra]

Pouring new concrete would be a great idea, as it would allow you to submerge wiring conduit through the floor, and not worry about any wall through isolation leaks...

again, something you would need to do on a grand scale initially, so you can make more in the future... though sinking conduit into concrete is a relatively small expense... relative to the concrete.

Isn't planning exciting

I hear you on the rush, cherish these times!

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

Pouring new concrete would be a great idea, as it would allow you to submerge wiring conduit through the floor, and not worry about any wall through isolation leaks...

again, something you would need to do on a grand scale initially, so you can make more in the future... though sinking conduit into concrete is a relatively small expense... relative to the concrete.

Isn't planning exciting

I hear you on the rush, cherish these times!

See, this is why sharing progress with this community really is great. I just read this out to my father as we sit here with a few beers and its one of those small details we totally didn't think about. Its very doable, in fact, its great you reminded us of this method so that we WILL do it. The studios I have worked in before have had the multicore going through the wall dividing the control room and live room, and they always had issues with some sound coming through there, no matter how well the hole was sealed. One problem might be that when we are pouring the concrete, we hadn't planned on going that deep - deep enough for a substantial conduit. But now, keeping this idea in mind, it shouldn't be much more effort to go a few more mill in depth to facilitate this. However, we could also help this by channeling down into the current concrete already there as well. Great tip, thank you!

[therealbigd]

The lounge strikes me as being really big when a lot more size could go into either the live room, control room, or both!

If you still wish to have a big lounge, have a think about proofing and treating the lounge, in such a way that it can be used as a second live room, with a different tonal character to it. Having a bright, wooden live room one side with the open ceiling and laminate wood floor etc one side, and a carpeted, lower ceiling, dampened sounding lounge the other side could make thing very interesting for you and much better when tracking.

If you keep the sofas and what not around the edges, with a lounge that big I see no reason why it couldn't double up as a good live Live Room 2. Either way, it's good practice to route your mic lines and tie lines into every room, as people will always take a liking to the acoustics of a room that wasn't designed for recording in.

(Btw, Little tip - when drawing on lined paper, use the lines to help you scale it, makes things a bit easier! (if 9 lines is 2.2m, 6 lines don't make up the remaining 0.68!!))

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

The lounge strikes me as being really big when a lot more size could go into either the live room, control room, or both!

If you still wish to have a big lounge, have a think about proofing and treating the lounge, in such a way that it can be used as a second live room, with a different tonal character to it. Having a bright, wooden live room one side with the open ceiling and laminate wood floor etc one side, and a carpeted, lower ceiling, dampened sounding lounge the other side could make thing very interesting for you and much better when tracking.

If you keep the sofas and what not around the edges, with a lounge that big I see no reason why it couldn't double up as a good live Live Room 2. Either way, it's good practice to route your mic lines and tie lines into every room, as people will always take a liking to the acoustics of a room that wasn't designed for recording in.

(Btw, Little tip - when drawing on lined paper, use the lines to help you scale it, makes things a bit easier! (if 9 lines is 2.2m, 6 lines don't make up the remaining 0.68!!))

Its totally not to scale and was drawn up after a few beers! Was just on a buzz from starting work so I did a very rough sketch and included measurements. Sorry about that. As I said, scaled, properly drawn plans will come shortly. If it makes any difference, when my dad seen these sketches he did this face ...

I could design the lounge to be used on occasion as another live room. But I must stress, I did not govern the dimensions of each of the three sections. The length of each room is governed by already existing walls. Between the control room and lounge there is a very solid block wall and the two rooms have about a 9inch height difference, it makes more sense to leave those dimensions as they are. It just wouldn't be practical to move pre-existing walls.

Thanks though!

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by steveyraff

I could design the lounge to be used on occasion as another live room. But I must stress, I did not govern the dimensions of each of the three sections. The length of each room is governed by already existing walls. Between the control room and lounge there is a very solid block wall and the two rooms have about a 9inch height difference, it makes more sense to leave those dimensions as they are. It just wouldn't be practical to move pre-existing walls.

Thanks though!

Well if it's definitely going there and definitely that size, I would definitely do it in a manner whereby it can become a second live room.

Like I said, almost all studios wire every room onto the patchbay anyway!

[steveyraff]

Hello again All !

On the note of wiring conduits. I was speaking with some of the sound engineers at work, and they said I could considering doing it the way the new recording studios there did it. Instead of sinking the conduit into the concrete flooring, put it through the ceiling and over the solid block walls. This way you don't have to think about ripping the flooring up any time you want to make modifications to the wiring. However, would it still prevent the sound leakage that may be experienced had I simply ran the conduit through the division wall?

Also, while talking to them they seemed to reckon that buying my own patch bay and multicore is adding a crazy amount of expense and that I would be better to just wire up my own.

Your thoughts?

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by steveyraff

Hello again All !

On the note of wiring conduits. I was speaking with some of the sound engineers at work, and they said I could considering doing it the way the new recording studios there did it. Instead of sinking the conduit into the concrete flooring, put it through the ceiling and over the solid block walls. This way you don't have to think about ripping the flooring up any time you want to make modifications to the wiring. However, would it still prevent the sound leakage that may be experienced had I simply ran the conduit through the division wall?

Nah. A lot of people say this. The place I work in has wiring through the ceiling, where a second live room was added. You honestly would not believe the amount of sound that gets through the hole!

Keep it as it is. People on here didn't recommend it for nothing.

Also, while talking to them they seemed to reckon that buying my own patch bay and multicore is adding a crazy amount of expense and that I would be better to just wire up my own.

Your thoughts?

No. If you only intend to use the studio in one format, do it that way. If you want the ability to add new kit, change the routing, use different equipment on different channels etc you need a patchbay. If you buy them 2nd hand off either eBay or any gear shop / rental place they can prove really cheap. If you buy multicore cable and connectors from studiospares rather than pre-made snakes, it's a lot cheaper too!

On the point of expansion, when you do it, I'd put 24 channels through the wall even if you can only use 8 at the moment. In the future if you expand, the connections will be ready to use. You'll likely upgrade to 16 soon and 24 in due course, and you really won't regret it. Until you get 24 in, you can utilise some of the spares for returns (tie lines, headphone returns, etc). Also, put some speaker cables through the wall too. You won't regret that either.

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

If you buy multicore cable and connectors from studiospares rather than pre-made snakes, it's a lot cheaper too!

On the point of expansion, when you do it, I'd put 24 channels through the wall even if you can only use 8 at the moment. In the future if you expand, the connections will be ready to use. You'll likely upgrade to 16 soon and 24 in due course, and you really won't regret it. Until you get 24 in, you can utilise some of the spares for returns (tie lines, headphone returns, etc). Also, put some speaker cables through the wall too. You won't regret that either.

Hey,

I probably will buy the cables and connectors rather than pre-made snakes.

As for expansion, I have 16 channels currently, but I had planned on facilitating for 24 to future-proof. Thanks for the tips though.

Stevey.

[therealbigd]

Happy St Patrick's Day

Off to O'Neils I go, once I wake up.

[First Aid]

Bear in mind the cabling costs of a new studio will quickly eat up your budget before you've even thought about materials.
Forget studiospares and go to VDC though, half the price

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

Happy St Patrick's Day

Off to O'Neils I go, once I wake up.

And to you too! While you are having fun drinkin' the black stuff down at O'Neil's I'll be sweeping out the space prepping it for the concrete pouring! Lucky you!

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by steveyraff

And to you too! While you are having fun drinkin' the black stuff down at O'Neil's I'll be sweeping out the space prepping it for the concrete pouring! Lucky you!

you're odd.

you should be in the pub getting into an unfit state of wellbeing.

[therealbigd]

you missed a good'un stevey.

my house is full of guinness hats and I can smell guinness in my own breath. and you missed all that for some concrete?? Pfffft.

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

you missed a good'un stevey.

my house is full of guinness hats and I can smell guinness in my own breath. and you missed all that for some concrete?? Pfffft.

Hey, this looks like quality concrete ... OK!??!

Anywhos, I am going to research this for myself today but I may aswell throw it out there to you guys too - On the issue of conduit: I don't understand how the conduits are not going to simple act as tunnels to carry sound from one room to the other, whether they are underground or through the ceiling. Considering the xlr wall box will be mounted on the wall between the live room and control room (under the window), I'd have thought it would actually serve as being even more sound proofed if I ran the cable directly threw the wall and then sealed the spacing solidly around the cable.

Again, a rookie query that I am going to read up on today - but I just can't see how conduit wouldn't simply serve as a tunnel between rooms for which sound to travel down through.

Feel free to fill me in on my ignorance!

[jhbrandt]

Use schedule 40, 4" or 100mm pvc pipe, 'street' elbos. Once the cabling is run in the conduit you stuff each end with pink fluffy stuff. The conduit attenuates sound at a steady rate per lineal meter/foot. The cabling adds damping and the pink fluffy just tops it off.

The is an excellent way to get the wiring to where you need it to be. Also, while you are at it, you might as well wire the place for zero loop area with the AC for the audio running beside the audio lines. (Ask me about Zero-Loop-Area wiring) Be sure to leave a pull rope in the conduit at all times.

Cheers,
John

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Use schedule 40, 4" or 100mm pvc pipe, 'street' elbos. Once the cabling is run in the conduit you stuff each end with pink fluffy stuff. The conduit attenuates sound at a steady rate per lineal meter/foot. The cabling adds damping and the pink fluffy just tops it off.

The is an excellent way to get the wiring to where you need it to be. Also, while you are at it, you might as well wire the place for zero loop area with the AC for the audio running beside the audio lines. (Ask me about Zero-Loop-Area wiring) Be sure to leave a pull rope in the conduit at all times.

Cheers,
John

Hey, thanks very much for the info. It makes a lot more sense to me now that you've pointed out just exactly how sound is dampened and prevented from travelling all the way through such conduit piping.

Don't worry, I won't make you repeat yourself about the zero loop area wiring. I didn't know what that was but I done a forum search and found another post where you have explained it all. Thanks.

[therealbigd]

you say 'the wallbox'. have you thought about multiple wallboxes? it would not be a particularly great expense to put a second wallbox at the other end of the live room. (just saves you running XLRs right across the room and is also useful for headphones).

you can either do this by, for instance having channels 1-16 at one end, and channels 17-32 at the other, and routing them seperately into the control room and using a patchbay to send the channels where you want them. This is my preference, especially if you are using different types of pre-amps where you will want to select what instrument gets sent to what pre-amp.

If you want to 'hard-wire' stuff straight to the pres and avoid having to patch everything, you can parallel wire the second wallbox onto the existing sockets on the first wallbox. When doing this, both wallboxes are 1-16 and you just have to make sure that you don't plug any 2 things in the same number socket.

alternatively, you can just buy a 16 channel stage snake with enough cable to reach any point in the room, then just plug it in manually to the sockets that you want to use. this is by far the simplest, and quite possibly the cheapest method - though of course the more connectors you run your signal through the more you degrade the signal. Though, I would argue, that an extra pair of XLR connectors, especially if Neutrik, are not going to make the most noticable difference.

[jhbrandt]

Not just Neutrik... but gold. Actually any good connector that is solidly built and has a good thick plating of gold will do nicely and if kept clean will not degrade performance.

Technically this means buying Neutrik. Switchcraft also has excellent connectors.

Neutrik also makes silver plated connectors which are technically better conductors than gold - BUT! - silver tarnishes and can become a semiconductor. (Silver Oxide diode) - Not recommended for critical low voltage/current circuits. For higher level such as speaker connections, these are excellent.

So, like the investment gurus say; BUY GOLD! You will be glad you did or sad you didn't.

Cheers,
John

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Not just Neutrik... but gold. Actually any good connector that is solidly built and has a good thick plating of gold will do nicely and if kept clean will not degrade performance.

Technically this means buying Neutrik. Switchcraft also has excellent connectors.

you confuse me. But yes, Neutrik and Switchcraft I agree.

In the UK, Neutrik are generally a bit easier to come by.

[jhbrandt]

Sorry.

Typical bla bla bla of technical consultant geek-heads like me to make a short story long.. haha.

I meant this: It's not the fact that it's Neutrik or Switchcraft - but that it is gold plated. Gold is the word.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

Sorry.

Typical bla bla bla of technical consultant geek-heads like me to make a short story long.. haha.

I meant this: It's not the fact that it's Neutrik or Switchcraft - but that it is gold plated. Gold is the word.

what, so a cheap nasty studiospares own brand gold connector is as good as a Neutrik one?

nah...

the terminal connection isn't the only important thing to consider when choosing your connector!

[jhbrandt]

are you picking on the teacher?

I said; "Actually any good connector that is solidly built and has a good thick plating of gold will do nicely"

and then I said. "Technically this means buying Neutrik"

You're confusing the newbies.

I apologize if I was not clear earlier.

Cheers,
John

[steveyraff]

Originally Posted by jhbrandt

are you picking on the teacher?

I said; "Actually any good connector that is solidly built and has a good thick plating of gold will do nicely"

and then I said. "Technically this means buying Neutrik"

You're confusing the newbies.

I apologize if I was not clear earlier.

Cheers,
John

Thanks guys, I will try to make sure to use good quality connectors. I was on the Neutrik site having a look at the large variety of XLR Chassis Connectors. It's actually quite hard to find anywhere selling the gold contact female XLR connectors.

As for having two wallboxes in the live room - I guess that wouldn't really be much of an extra effort apart from buying a second chassis and probably a few meters extra multicore. I'll think about it, but I will definitely run some conduit to the opposite end of the live room incase I do go for that option.

Many thanks.

[steveyraff]

Just a quick update for anyone that was following this project and is wondering why nothing has been happening!

Things slowed down a little for the best part of this last month or so, but I am hoping it will be picking up again soon. Its partly to do with reaching a stage where we had to rely on other outside contractors to become available.

Also, I had to clear out the area and prep it. Decades of cow manure, bird and bat droppings had built up on the walls and well... everywhere. I had to buy a special chemical formula to safely spray the walls down with, then power hose everything.

The old broken concrete floors were angled substantially on a slope to one side, for the rather gross purpose of allowing manure to flow out of the barn when occupied by cattle.

I ordered a lorry load of blinding gravel that was used to level this out. There is also a load of sand which we have started to put on top of this today for the purpose of smoothing out the top of the sharp gravel, so as not to puncture the materials being used over the top of this. The floor insulation and polythene has also arrived and on Monday we have workers coming around to pour the new concrete floors. They have already been around to assess the location yesterday.

I have attached pictures of the levelled gravel layer recently put down.

[steveyraff]

... and the sand layer.

Just the live room done so far, layering control room flooring with sand all day today!