Amish Electric Chair Studios - Athens, Ohio

[amishsixstringe]

Trock, you're exactly right. That's what I'm actually working on right now. It's been really cold and snowy, but I'm trying to get the roof to a completed state before the rain season comes again. It's been tough and slow. I am building 'look outs' for the overhang support. It all gets boxed in to form the sofits and drip edge. Pictures of that soon. It should be in the low 50's this weekend. We'll get some stuff done.


Neil

[trock]

ah, very cool


it looks great, amazing how much you are putting into this all by yourself. in the end you will really appreciate it, and most importantly you will know every square inch like the back of your hand so if you ever need to fix something you will know right where to go

[amishsixstringe]

Here's a couple shots of some conceptual drawings. For some reason, autocad doesn't like to export to .bmp on this computer. I used to use this feature all the time in the machine shop, but oh well. The sketchup was just made to calculate soffit angles, so it's not too comprehensive either. There was a .skp of the entire studio at one point, but I don't learn and didn't back the file up before the hdd went bad.

I've been working on all the soffits on the outside under the roof. Should have that wrapped up and photos posted soon.

Oh, and I have promised that I'd share my budget on this project. I haven't gone back to post a 'running total' yet, but I'm up to $12,500 American right now. Which is about 15K under what it would have been with a contractor involved at this point.





Peace!

Neil

[JulianFernandez]

Thanks for sharing, man!
Congratulations!

[johndykstra]

When you do get a more intricate sketchup, would you mind terribly posting a shot of the framing behind your soffits? I'm looking at doing some soon too, and I'd like to get another perspective.

[signal9studio]

Am....I am doing a total overhaul of the studio. Building an isolation booth now and having a new desk and rack units built...I'm getting new monitors and a MOTU system and just finished a new computer build....so I am way over my head already ehe...when I'm done I'll invite you down and exchange secrets ee.....

[Rick Sutton]

Nice thread, and a hell of an accomplishment, but maybe I missed something?
Where is the secondary fire exit from this building? Even a small window that can be busted out (and can be easily shuttered from the inside for security and sound reasons) would be better than nothing. Is that door the only way out of there?
I hope I'm missing something here 'cause I really admire your efforts.

[judah]

If you're goin' all the way and making soffit and splayed walls you should recheck your angles in the control room. With your design you still have side reflections that interfere with the RFZ area.

[judah]

Didn't want to sound rude in my previous post.
Here's a picture to better explain.

If you angle the walls a bit more and make smaller soffit you should achive a front end that doesn't need any first reflection absorption (pic.2).

Hope I didn't make a fool of myself here.

[Quint]

Sweet thread. I look forward to subsequent pictures.

[Dave Rose]

Awesome!!! Well done and good luck....

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by judah

If you angle the walls a bit more and make smaller soffit you should achive a front end that doesn't need any first reflection absorption

doesn't narrowing the width of the soffit plane reduce the effect? and at what point does that sacrifice justify no absorption? sorry... asking for knowledge, not implying you are wrong.

[judah]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

doesn't narrowing the width of the soffit plane reduce the effect? and at what point does that sacrifice justify no absorption? sorry... asking for knowledge, not implying you are wrong.

Don't wanna hijack amish's thread but a lot of "small" soffits I saw are quite small in their speaker portion. I think that the front wall act as a whole, it's not just the speaker beazel that creates the effect. I also suspect that if we're talking about a real soffit with the speaker fully enclosed in a rigid front wall, the speaker is forced to radiate in the front only no matter what the beazel dimensions are (to a certain degree). Just my understading. On paper. I'm still a student just like most of us here. Tryin' to pick up as I go.

(Picture from ClearTrack Studio, design by Wes Lachot)

[David-Morpheus]

From the ground up

Good luck with the build !!!!!

[amishsixstringe]

About the front/splayed walls. Thanks for going out of your way to check those angles. I really do appreciate it. It is something that I did notice and just haven't fixed yet. I also had my speakers at 66 degrees, which isn't really that much of a problem, but I moved them to make a 60 degree triangle and put a couple more pieces in the wall. This should do the trick.

I was thinking of making the addition a slat absorber. Is there any reason I shouldn't? If I was to make it gypsum, I will end up with a triple leaf unless I don't seal it off.



Neil

[vanrobr]

Wow, what a great thread. Definitely an inspiration to us all. I can't wait to see how the final product is going to turn out. Thanks for putting in the time and effort to make this thread so great.

[judah]

Originally Posted by amishsixstringe

About the front/splayed walls. Thanks for going out of your way to check those angles. I really do appreciate it. It is something that I did notice and just haven't fixed yet. I also had my speakers at 66 degrees, which isn't really that much of a problem, but I moved them to make a 60 degree triangle and put a couple more pieces in the wall. This should do the trick.

I was thinking of making the addition a slat absorber. Is there any reason I shouldn't? If I was to make it gypsum, I will end up with a triple leaf unless I don't seal it off.

Neil

Hey Neil, great job you're doin'. I wasn't tryin to be snotty or anything. Your addition to the wall takes care of first reflection. Exactly what I was talking about.

It seems to me, after years of just looking around on acoustic sites and looking at photo diaries, that there are a few different schools on soffit mounting speakers. As far as I understand, "real" soffit mounting is something like you see in the first picture (design by Wes Lachot). As you can see (and I hope I got it too, it would be a pleasure to get a straight answer from the man itself) you don't have any wall behind the speakers. The soffit wall IS the front wall. You just (well, just...) enclose your speakers into MDF boxes (or something similar) in fact matching your front wall construction. Sort of an extension on your front wall.

The soffit wall mount ala John Sayers (2nd picture) I can't really get a grasp of it. I understand the concept and the idea but the fact that you still have a "chamber" right behind the monitors, albeit full of bass traps and hangers, seems sort of flawed to me.

I ordered Philip Newell book a few days ago. Hope I'll finally get some answers about this very same issue.

BTW, I think it all comes down to a designer idea. Acoustic is not a perfect science and mostly it looks like trial and error. I made my good part of mistakes in the past tryin' to come up with brilliant ideas and failed miserably. I redone my control room three times by now and everytime I improved a bit but still have a flawed response that I have to compensate. The luxury to build something from the groundup is fashinating to me and hope you good luck with your journey.

[phybeau]

Looking great Neil!

Rick Sutton has a point here though:

Rick Sutton:Nice thread, and a hell of an accomplishment, but maybe I missed something?
Where is the secondary fire exit from this building? Even a small window that can be busted out (and can be easily shuttered from the inside for security and sound reasons) would be better than nothing. Is that door the only way out of there?
I hope I'm missing something here 'cause I really admire your efforts.

I'm not trying to be snotty also, just worried about your safetythumbsup

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by judah

It seems to me, after years of just looking around on acoustic sites and looking at photo diaries, that there are a few different schools on soffit mounting speakers. As far as I understand, "real" soffit mounting is something like you see in the first picture (design by Wes Lachot). As you can see (and I hope I got it too, it would be a pleasure to get a straight answer from the man itself) you don't have any wall behind the speakers. The soffit wall IS the front wall. You just (well, just...) enclose your speakers into MDF boxes (or something similar) in fact matching your front wall construction. Sort of an extension on your front wall.

The soffit wall mount ala John Sayers (2nd picture) I can't really get a grasp of it. I understand the concept and the idea but the fact that you still have a "chamber" right behind the monitors, albeit full of bass traps and hangers, seems sort of flawed to me.

I won't claim to speak for Wes, but since I do speak with him almost every day, I've received the following wisdom: done right, soffit speakers in a true RFZ give provide the largest sweet spot and best imaging possible. Unfortunately, a majority of studios either get the soffit wrong, the RFZ wrong, or both, which means that a majority of people's daily experience with soffit-mounted speakers is wrong. A corollary to that is that many people feel the need to use nearfield monitors on the console bridge because they can't or don't trust the soffit speakers. That's proof of a poor soffit implementation, not proof that nearfields give better results than soffits in general.

Having experienced the difference between Wes's own control room (at Overdub lane) and many other studios we've visited together, I have to say--he's absolutely right! But getting it absolutely right is not easy...he himself has spent years learning the best, most reliable ways to do this. In a few months time, I will put that claim to the test in my own studio!

[dtf]

Originally Posted by Clueless

I won't claim to speak for Wes, but since I do speak with him almost every day, I've received the following wisdom: done right, soffit speakers in a true RFZ give provide the largest sweet spot and best imaging possible.

From what I have read about early control room design with soffit mounted speakers, the front wall intendedly became an important part of the projection of the speakers - in other words, it acted as a horn.

Is this something that plays a role in current control room designs still? From a layman's point of view, that would not be desirable if the speakers weren't designed for exactly that purpose.

Best,
Dirk

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by dtf

From what I have read about early control room design with soffit mounted speakers, the front wall intendedly became an important part of the projection of the speakers - in other words, it acted as a horn.

Not a horn per se, but it basically ensures that the low-frequency waves have only one way to go, which is forward and in phase. When low-frequency waves can go backward, then reflect off a surface, they come back out of phase, and that creates total havoc with bass response.

The overriding goal of a horn-loaded system is acoustic impedance matching, not phase coherence.

In the studio I'm building, the main control room will feature soffit-mounted speakers, while the annex control room will have mid-field monitors. To appease the acoustic gods, we're building a compound bass trap at the front of the room that will be 12' wide, 8' tall, and 3.5' deep. That trap will subdue the waves that would normally bounce back to the mix position from the front three surround speakers. And the whole rest of the room (left, right, and rear walls, as well as ceiling) are also bass trapping. We've also defined what we're calling a FDRZ (fully diffused reflection zone) so that all reflections that can hit the mix position hit at least one diffusive surface first. There is no RFZ in surround because what would have been an RFZ for the front speakers are perfect reflectors to the mix position for the surround positions.

[Syncamorea]

Awesome build and fantastic photodocumentation, Neil. I'm totally in tune with your view on DIY and the whole path of "amateur" design and build. I get into that whole "imagine it > draw it > find mistakes > reimagine it > redraw it > get started > learn while doing it" etc., attitude. It's the journey, man!

Hey, if you go with a spray flame ******ent, over-protect yourself while applying and blow the whole system out repeatedly overnight when nobody is in the studio. Recent studies are showing flame ******ents and the other compounds formulated in with them (plus impurities) to be a worse mix than believed just 5 years ago. Mop up well when you're done blowing the system out. All injested toxins should be there by design! (and have some kind of benefit)

Keep up the good work!

[BFSound]

Any updates, I need more pics i love DIY stuff like this!!!
thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

Keep up the good work

[amishsixstringe]

More photo updates soon. I promise.

Ok. The one door issue: I haven't been avoiding this question, but trying to find a way to answer it best. I don't really think I have found that way, but I'm going to try. The building permit was issued for a single room building with no plumbing and no occupancy (not a dwelling). I was originally going to build a huge one room space with a closet/isolation room in it for my band to rehearse in as well. I'm well outside of the city limits of athens, so my zoning laws are pretty lax. That's why there is only one door. The door is in the middle of the longest wall. By placing the door there, rather than in a corner or on the shorter walls, the distance needed to travel for exit is lesser. I have been debating knocking out some blocks in the big room and putting a window in. This will be VERY expensive and time consuming, so I'm pretty reluctant to do it. The escape route, in the case of a fire, is pretty simple no matter where you are in the studio.

This is interesting: The restaurant I used to work at was 2 huge long rooms joined by a door. The dining room and the kitchen. The dining room was in the front and had a door marked 'exit' for escape. The kitchen (where all the fire actually was) had no doors out the back. We only had one window in the kitchen that was 10' off the ground with no table or shelves below it. There was no way you could bash it out and escape. Even if you could you'd fall out of the window down a concrete stairway to the basement. BUT the athens code office ok'd us because there was a window. It didn't matter if it was practical or not. I'm honestly not that worried about escape. (Maybe I'm too brave/proud?) Perhaps you can persuade me.

Next: Sofit mounting speakers:

This subject is SO touchy. I have read everything I could get my hands on about this. Everytime I read something it seems to negate all of the other theories of sofit mounting and I feel that I know less than I did going into the debate. I will be totally honest. I think that almost half of the reason I want to sofit mout is that it looks totally bad ass...and aesthecis are really important in an artistic atmosphere. There is no debating that. I would also like to gain acoustic advantages, such as more focussed low end response.

I have read 3 very different ways to mount speakers. John Sayers' method, the Barefoot method, and of course the front wall actually being the baffle method. All three seem to have advantages and disadvantages. I would like to keep my options open for speakers. If I decide to get new monitors one day, I'd like to be able to modify the sofit without extreme amounts of work. The barefoot method of making a bezel that can be remade for different speakers is nice for this.

BUT The speaker is actually on a stand behind the wall and not actually touching the baffle. Based on some arguments, this decreses, if not destroys, the benefits of the sofit mounting.

My design was based on the Barefoot plans outlined here: John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum • View topic - Monitor Flush Mounting Method

I have not begun framing this room yet, so if I'm going to change the plans it needs to be soon. Design is free. Tearing stuff up isn't.

Thanks to everyone so much. It is truly a blessing to have good people looking over me.

New photos soon.

Neil

[judah]

I fully understand your thinking Neil and I would never try to steer anyone to a design or the other 'cause I'm no expert. At all.

I just feel a lot of empathy when I see this kind of project popping up 'cause I've been there and I know the excitment and the feeling you get by doin' it all yourself. If I were you I would try and ask some help to the big guys who works with the small studios too. Wes Lachot, Rod Gervais, Augsperger.

I appreciate and respect the DIY ethic but when it comes down to such a technical matter a whole new can of worms open up and trust me, you don't wanna screw it up and have to redo it all.

Back to the specific soffit issue. The major difference between the two methods we're discussing is:

1. With the Sayers method, at least to my understanding, you can use nearfields along with the soffit because of the absorbent front wall.
2. with the other method (let's call it the Lachot for sake of simplicity) it seems to me that having such a reflective front wall (or at least less absorbent than the Sayers') makes having nearfields a bit mroe complicated or it must be considered during the design stage.

It would be great to have a few designers in here explaining in details all the issues of soffit mounting and their methods. It is such an expensive mistake to make and I don't think tht revealing a few secrets would do any harm to their business.

[Rick Sutton]

The escape route, in the case of a fire, is pretty simple no matter where you are in the studio.
Simple, yes, but if the fire blocks access to that exit, simple is deadly.


Neil,
I am very relieved to hear that you are considering my concern about an alternate exit. I sincerely wish that someone would have raised this issue before you started construction as I realize it is a real problem to do retrofitting at this stage. I've built a few studios with my own money and I know the financial pain. If this building were a storage or garage type of unit (like the permit assumes) I can see your desire to keep the access points to a minimum. But, you are intending to "invite" many people to share this space with you, and in the process they are literally putting their lives in your hands. Those lives include many young people, their friends, families and children.
I have been in this business for 40 years and believe me their will be people of all ages in that space. They do not deserve to be put into an unsafe environment. I know the odds of a fire are very remote but with only one exit you are taking a calculated risk with people's lives including your own and those of your family. Music and recording are important but absolutely insignificant when compared to people's (and your own loved ones) welfare.
The money is a bummer. But right now you have the energy flowing and the team together to solve this issue. Put it off and it will never get done. The money and the hassle will be forgotten with time, but the sleepless nights and, God forbid, in the event of the unthinkable, the damage to people's lives from your oversight would be unforgivable and unchangeable.
Sorry, but that's the reality of the situation.
From the quality and ethic I can feel from your passion for this project I'm optimistic that you'll take the responsible path and correct this serious oversight.
All the best,
Rick

[amishsixstringe]

Rick,

I didn't start this thread to be too arrogant and ignorant to suggestions and visions of problems. I stated from the beginning that I wanted people to chime in when something was off. This is a problem I'd like to address.

Now, what would you guys suggest? A window? A sliding glass door? Where would you put it? I'd really not want it to face the road. I want to keep my privacy in the studio. I don't really want a ton of neighbors to really know what's going on in here and know what kind of $$$ is inside. I will have security cameras and an alarm, but I'd still like to minimize the risk of ever needing that equipment. I'm thinking about a sliding glass door with direct access to the drum/live room. Would this require an additional "air lock"? If you look at my generic floor layout that would require it to go on the right (north) wall, or the bottom (east) wall. It's going to take a shit load of work...I'm scared.

The only place the door or window could NOT go is in the isolation room. It is already framed and drywalled. For the sake of saving some money I'd like to not tear into that if it isn't necessary. I'm already having to smash through some blocks and fit a concrete lintel/header in place if this is going to happen.

Give me your thoughts. Thanks again guys.

Neil

[Rick Sutton]

Neil,
At the very least I would install a window (preferably a door) in the live room on the wall opposite the CR window. If you put in a window it can have an interior steel covering on hinges that provides isolation and security but is easily opened from the inside.
In case of a fire, and blockage of the main door, it can be accessed from the live room easily.
In the same scenario the alternate escape route from the control room would be to break through the CR window (I'd keep a large fire extinguisher in the CR as they are handy for more than putting out fires, they can break windows) and gain access to the live room exit. Obviously an alternate exit at the back of the CR is best but in the case of an emergency the CR window is expendable and better than no alternate.

[judah]

Neil if you ever worked on a studio with natural light you'd understand...

Priceless...

You can always shade the light with some kind of translucid adhesive paper.

[Syncamorea]

Originally Posted by amishsixstringe

This is a problem I'd like to address.

Now, what would you guys suggest? A window? A sliding glass door? Where would you put it? I'd really not want it to face the road. I want to keep my privacy in the studio. I don't really want a ton of neighbors to really know what's going on in here and know what kind of $$$ is inside. I will have security cameras and an alarm, but I'd still like to minimize the risk of ever needing that equipment. I'm thinking about a sliding glass door with direct access to the drum/live room. Would this require an additional "air lock"? If you look at my generic floor layout that would require it to go on the right (north) wall, or the bottom (east) wall. It's going to take a shit load of work...I'm scared.

I'd go for adding a small entry way on its own pad with an exterior steel door. Then if you went with a sliding glass door in the wall of your existing studio, the entryway plus steel door would help with privacy and security. Sliding glass doors are just way too easy to break into. You could even put a skylight in the entryway roof to bring natural light in. The entryway idea gives you the flexibility to add the door where it best fits the floor plan without hosing acoustics, security or privacy. Hey, it's only money, blood, sweat and tears...

Good luck!