Never said anything of the sort, just want to know who can prove it. Money where mouth is.
You are right about mics etc. In this case...its the same damn thing. If you can hear the color and saturation and on and on (which I can on some as well), then how hard would it be to listen to 2 files that are THE SAME FILE and match them??
I believe that once you reach quality, it is hard to tell. In fact, I think we are all guilty of name and price. Just me. Not a fact. This was to prove what is what. If one can hear it, then certainly you could match it.
Sure, 3k pre sounds better than behringer (with whatever better means).
But ya know what, I wanted someone to prove to me that 3k pre is different from 500 dollar pre. I wanted to see who could pick it out.
And boy what a fire. lol
I am running out right now to get a 500 dollar pre and know that I have it as good as the guy who spent 3k.
This is all I was looking for. Who can really tell, and who perceives they can tell.
Again, 2 of the exact same files. SAME FILES.
Environment.............lololololololololololol
Dick out-
No 3k pre was involved in the shootout, maybe 1? You haven't compared to the best. Nothing that was tested is usually found in major label studios. You really still won't have a pre as good as Ocean Way or Abbey Road.
+1
Furthermore, you are only hearing a specific setting of the unit instead of every setting. The real test would be to actually own all of these units and try to blindly guess in person which was which while the settings are tweaked. Its obvious you are trying to make yourself feel better about not being able to afford these things. Also, none of those preamps are really world class pieces except maybe the Neve - of course comparing a bunch of similar priced mid-range pieces gives similar results. I thought you were talking about SSL, Buzz Audio, DW Fearn, Manley, Millenia, vintage Neve, API. I think you have proved nothing other than nobody on GS would want to hang out with you in person, you are annoying.
And I am fat and don't read so good. lol
Thanks friend.
No 3k pre was involved in the shootout, maybe 1? You haven't compared to the best. Nothing that was tested is usually found in major label studios. You really still won't have a pre as good as Ocean Way or Abbey Road.
None? Hmmm.
Running out of gas.
My apologies to all. Best of luck.
Eldopa you are failing to understand that preamps react differently to different sources, mics, etc.
I have done this sort of test with my preamps and, in some cases on some sources, you are correct! The 2 preamps do almost null as there is almost no difference... HOWEVER on a different source, the same two preamps - even with the same mic - do not come close to canceling out! preamps with tubes or without, with transformers or without, with discrete vs. IC topologies will all handle frequencies, dynamics, transients, in different (and yes, sometimes, similar/identical ways)
Honestly, I don't disagree with your premise that one $3k preamp is no "better" than another, it's like saying should I take the BMW or Mercedes down to the shop to buy milk - both will get you there in style. but to say there is no meaningful difference between the pres (or cars) would not be accurate.
Also, not to beat a dead horse about the clip-a-lator files but just so you (and others) might understand. If you go download the FREE iTunes single of the week and post it on soundcloud or on gearslutz so your friends can hear it, you are illegally re-distributing copywritten material even though the files were free and were made available for download so you could listen to them on your own system and even though all of your friends could also go download them for free so you're just "cutting out the middle man" it's still against the law. Warren owns the copyright to the files and can restrict them however he sees fit and I appreciate you removing them.
__________________ - "You only have a certain amount of headroom with Pro Tools... if you start pushing it a little bit too hard it's starts squawking like a chicken, if you go too low, it starts squawkin', you have to work within a certain realm otherwise you get zapped either way!" - Tad Donley (2006) -
You could always get off the internet, go to the studio and MAKE YOUR OWN clips for such a test. Sure, it will take many hours, might cost you some money, and you'll be ridiculed for some methodology flaw or another, but, you seem to have strong feelings about the subject. Strong enough to get off ya ass and do some work?
And btw, what 3K preamp is it that you keep referring to?
Here were the ones I used - couple prices added from his site.
01-slate pro audio fox - 1799.00
02-trident audio a range - 3999.99
03-mackie onyx
04-fink audio cs2fa - 3499.99
05-rupert neve 517
06-focusrite isa one
07- art pro mpa2
08-lindell audio 6x-500
09-retro powerstrip - 2895.00
10-golden age project pre73 mk2
Eldopa you are failing to understand that preamps react differently to different sources, mics, etc.
I have done this sort of test with my preamps and, in some cases on some sources, you are correct! The 2 preamps do almost null as there is almost no difference... HOWEVER on a different source, the same two preamps - even with the same mic - do not come close to canceling out! preamps with tubes or without, with transformers or without, with discrete vs. IC topologies will all handle frequencies, dynamics, transients, in different (and yes, sometimes, similar/identical ways)
Honestly, I don't disagree with your premise that one $3k preamp is no "better" than another, it's like saying should I take the BMW or Mercedes down to the shop to buy milk - both will get you there in style. but to say there is no meaningful difference between the pres (or cars) would not be accurate.
Also, not to beat a dead horse about the clip-a-lator files but just so you (and others) might understand. If you go download the FREE iTunes single of the week and post it on soundcloud or on gearslutz so your friends can hear it, you are illegally re-distributing copywritten material even though the files were free and were made available for download so you could listen to them on your own system and even though all of your friends could also go download them for free so you're just "cutting out the middle man" it's still against the law. Warren owns the copyright to the files and can restrict them however he sees fit and I appreciate you removing them.
I can't help it. I feel like it would be rude if I don't respond.
I just wanted to see what you could here. Forget all the variables. Take 2 files, exactly the same and match them. Could anyone say this is the same as this?? That's all. I know what you are saying, I hear ya loud and clear. But wow, it would have been awesome to have more than words in a post. It would be helpful to see it done. I guess that is more the point. I was the one who posted. I was the one looking for an answer. Clearly you do not agree with my quest or believe it to be fruitless. But I cannot help that it was of interest to me. To see it done rather than told trust me, there is a difference. I just wanted to see it and how well. I type more in another response. It was not even to see if there would be a 10 out of 10 score.
As for the files, not sure about the copyright. I see the claim but just not that it applies to what was done. I basically did what War did with his actual files and said they are his files and linked to his files, I just opted to not make them available for download.
Here is his quote:
*FILES ARE FOR THE USE OF ZENPRO AUDIO LLC CUSTOMERS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE
OF DECIDING WHAT GEAR TO BUY HERE AT ZENPRO AUDIO.
That's what I did. My own space, my way of listening on my cloud...to decide. I cam right here and expanded on what the "owner" wrote and said to use it for. I also said it was his and linked to his. Sorry but I cannot help but to defend it as I do not see this as being what has been said. I used it to listen. If you want to make the claim that you do not approve of my listening method/source then fine. This is an additional issue and should be addressed in disclaimer. But again the dead horse. It does not matter. Though you do not agree, I feel I did no wrong...but it was still.....wrong. I did not want a problem. As a fellow music person I should have asked 1st...just because. And in the least, I should have taken it down as soon as he asked no matter what I thought....just because. This is where I am at with it. No matter how we get there, we both feel I was wrong.
No matter what I feel terrible. I dont like what happened or how I reacted. Bottom line, I pulled the files.
Can't say it enough. Sorry War, I don't like causing a headache to anyone.
Just make an ABX test with your own stuff. Once you find out how challenging that alone can be to do properly you'll be in a better position to appreciate the variables and stumbling blocks that come with trying to assemble a multi-variable blind testing situation. And who knows? You might even figure out that multi-variable blind listening tests involving more than two potential answers, in a guess which is "x" format are not very useful for human test subjects.
As it stands now it seems like you're determined not work to figure out the truth of your hypothesis.
__________________ Liz - recordist, mixing dragon lady BLOG some work
Just make an ABX test with your own stuff. Once you find out how challenging that alone can be to do properly you'll be in a better position to appreciate the variables and stumbling blocks that come with trying to assemble a multi-variable blind testing situation. And who knows? You might even figure out that multi-variable blind listening tests involving more than two potential answers, in a guess which is "x" format are not very useful for human test subjects.
As it stands now it seems like you're determined not work to figure out the truth of your hypothesis.
This is so wild, I keep answering to things that were never said. This will be the last.
I never said anything about how difficult anything is. In fact, my understanding of the time and work is the reason this was used. I am not sure what you are referencing here....maybe a reply to the wrong post??
I know what the test involves, I am the one that requested. I know exactly what is involved and what I was looking for. Sadly, I will never know. It would have been awesome.
Alright, gonna try hard to let go and move on.
Thanks all.
War, my apologies.
The job of engineer is to figure out what pre is going to work best in that situation on that day, whic believe it or not has little to do with picking pres out in a survey!
__________________
I have had worse days, but hey I've been on fire!
I feel like I should make the pissed smiley my Avitar
The job of engineer is to figure out what pre is going to work best in that situation on that day, whic believe it or not has little to do with picking pres out in a survey!
Didn't even try, when I need to know what a preamp is doing I have the advantage of using the real thing as reference, everything is judged off that, Not MP3s on my Iphone or laptop!
This is so wild, I keep answering to things that were never said. This will be the last.
I never said anything about how difficult anything is....
This is one of those situations when you are not responding to the valid criticisms of your thread.
You posted a thread with a challenge to those that claim to be able to hear the differences between different makes and models of preamp. I have pointed out that the way you have laid out this challenge (besides the whole issue of being done with clips that were re-distributed without consent) makes it very much so biased in favor of the failure of any human that would undertake it because of it's natural clash with the way humans process information.
I suggested a different way of administering a challenge in order to effectively test the claims of those that say they can hear the differences in preamps. You have not answered my criticism with a valid and sound argument that allows for your methodology to persist as useful. Therefore, I conclude that you don't seem to be interested in whether or not your method is indeed useful for evaluating the thing you claim to be interested in testing. If you don't care about that then what's the point? Test results gathered from unacceptably flawed methods are virtually useless.
So again, if you REALLY want to see who can or can't hear the differences between different preamps then design a test that is consistent with established, effective practices of testing human perception. The proper ABX test is one example of this, and I cited it and posted a link to an example of it in my original response to you.
What is so wild to me is that you don't seem to get how your test isn't capable of being a proper ABX due to having too many variables. I read your response about having the user isolate two variables and listen for differences. But that would not be a proper ABX. Again; it's not the same thing and not as effective.
I think Eldopa has attempted to remedy the situation to the best of his abilities, we should just let this one ride. It wasn't a waste if we learned something.
Everyone makes mistakes. Live and let live.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsilva
Anyone Swap Digi 003 tubes? Is this even possible ? Anyone out there do it and if so what kind of results you get ?
I never paid much attention to preamps but I am learning to. I can't tell you the difference between high end pickups but I've learned that buying a cheaply made mixer is a waste of time. I've used all of the semi-pro mixers and none of them are acceptable to me except the Mackie 1202,802 or 402. I never knew what I was missing until I replaced two crap boards by Behrenger and Peavey with two Mackies.[/B]
Eldopa you are failing to understand that preamps react differently to different sources, mics, etc.
I think this is the crux of the issue and the 5 page arguement that I've flicked through is a little crazy. Kudos for stating the facts! Heres what from reading I've understood:
Chances are the biggest issue for most mics is the loading and the type of loading that is occuring (resistive, inductive) from the mic to the pre. A SM58 (or any other simple dynamic) is an inductor wired to a transformer and how you load it will change not only the frequency response but the transient response. This means, from my experience, that generaly a High Z gives a brighter output signal albeit some situations can reduce low end.
Does that mean that the cheap capacitors and op amps are not affecting the sound relative to a wonderfuly, lovingly crafted Neve? No, they do have an impact. But the input impedance met by a dynamic or a ribbon should be understood as being a part of the microphone. They complete a circuit together and one is nothing without the other. Even in Tube mics (where the condensor is buffered by a tube gain stage and so not in direct contact with the pre) an input impedance is expected and any chokes or transformers used will be chosen accordingly, distortion and frequency response in tube mics will also change.
Theoreticly the least likely to suffer dramatic changes is a condenser (as above with a Tube Condensor, but Solid State), but the many, especialy newer cheap ones, don't really have the load driving ability for a 600 ohm input - this is why 2.2K is such a common figure now for a preamp input Z, it's easy to drive. The frequency response changing? Possibly, if there's a transformer on either side, but most likely to change are noise and distortion figures.
I know where you're coming from El Dopa (Songs About F*cking?)I used to dismiss this as nonsense until I tried it out for myself with a Variable Z pre-amp and a couple of dynamics. SM57 on a 4k setting was great for some 80's New Wave guitar tones, but I was keeping the M201 at 600 to let the snare drum keep its weight. I'm never going to own 20 pres, but I did like what it could do. The TRP has an input Z of 22K I read and I'm hoping to build some buffers like this for my ribbons with some different Z settings availible via a rotary switch... Yum!
After all this you then have intentionaly "colourful" pres, transformer saturation, distortion, EQ, noise, phase shift! Time for bed, I think..
__________________ Why don't you just knock it off with them negative waves?
Here's a story I like to tell about pre's and their impact on a mix:
Now.... when I got to the 5th cut (the first with 24 tracks of API)....WHOLY SH@#T.....I didn't touch a knob and the mix sounded like it jumped out of the speakers! WAY more stereo separation, bottom thumping, transients killing.
Oh come on, I can believe that there will be subtle differences in the qualities of different preamps but how on earth is using different preamps going to improve stereo separation?
Why did Jules delete a post? I think I remember which one it was... Wasn't the nicest, but I've seen worse.
I'm getting to the point where I don't even argue with these types of posters. Until you are working on a great song, in a great room, with great players, the differences in preamps, gear, etc... Could be moot. However, when you get to the point where you are working with all the above, you can absolutely tell a difference.
I always swap out pres at least to try once or twice during setup. Its crazy how much an API may fit for one, but a Neve-ish may fit for another, and then sometimes neither will work, and you just need a clean Hardy M1 for something.
Of course people who have never experienced it will question in disbelief. Do I think a rack of Neves will instantly make a record sound better? Absolutely not. Do I thin a plethora of gear will help make getting pieces to fit together easier and better from the start will make my life easier at mix time? Yessireebob.
"Never look at a gifthorse's butt" or something like that.
JROD
__________________
Music soothes even the savage beast.
Here were the ones I used - couple prices added from his site.
01-slate pro audio fox - 1799.00
02-trident audio a range - 3999.99
03-mackie onyx
04-fink audio cs2fa - 3499.99
05-rupert neve 517
06-focusrite isa one
07- art pro mpa2
08-lindell audio 6x-500
09-retro powerstrip - 2895.00
10-golden age project pre73 mk2
Sorry i was rude. The Trident costs that much because it is 4 channels. Obviously increasing the channels increases the price. The Fink and Retro powerstrip are channel strips (the Fink is stereo) with Pres - EQs - and Compression/Limiting amplifiers. Obviously that increases the price greatly as well. The cost of a single pre itself made by either would probably be under $1000. None of them are $3,000 dollar preamps, that is deceiving to say that.
It might help to consider more things than the price tag. Features, design and build quality, parts. It makes no sense to compare more expensive 4 channel pres and stereo channel strips to single channel desktop dedicated preamps. Of course units with more features and more parts (probably of higher quality) cost more money. Try these preamps and then determine if there is no difference. MP3 shopping is a bad idea, i have listened to MP3s of gear i own and it never sounds like what it does in person which is what matters. You might find it sounded ok online but is disappointing in person. Also, i apologize for insulting you, i do understand where you are coming from, i'm sure you're not annoying at all. If you aren't releasing the recordings spending a lot on a pre or strip is probably a waste.
I have always been skeptical regarding the value of a static audio clip as an example of the sonics of a particular piece of gear. Without familiarity with the sound of the original source in the room (standing there, listening to it in person), listening to a recording really doesn't tell you much. If you have a bright instrument or a bright mic (or both) every mic preamp will sound brighter. Do you purchase preamp A over preamp B, because things sound smoother? If so, when you record a more balanced guitar (or player) with your shiny new preamp A it'll suddenly sound dull. Is that the fault of the preamp?
And if the mic is 6" from the 12th fret, most all the preamps will appear fairly revealing. Yet when you get home with one and record a guitar 15" back, you may be discouraged by how cloudy the image actually is -- and this, of course, affected by the choice of mic used as well.
This is a fundamental flaw of such approaches, and why I generally find such comparisons little more than anecdotal.
Then there is the factor of how a preamp helps or hinders a signal's ability to sit properly in a mix. Many years ago I snagged a used Behringer Vintager series tube pre (the 2ru one, don't remember the model number) for $95 so I could gut it and use the chassis and power supply for another device I was building. For grins, before I tore it apart, I did some comparisons between this 'tube preamp' () and a Universal 2-610 that I had at the time. At first I was stunned that on the source I tracked, with the mic I chose, I was hard pressed to tell the difference -- with the tracks solo'd. But then I dropped the tracks into a mix and it became evident to all which one was which. The UA had a clearer, more detailed and focused image compared to the Behringer, which felt more 2D in the mix. I solo'd them again, and again, they seemed very similar, remarkably so, but the proof was in the context.
Nothing about this thread's initial challenge addressed this phenomenon, again, making it just about useless.
And then there is the apparent assumption that each of 'golden ears' being challenged to prove their mettle here would have enough familiarity with each of the 10 models used in this exercise to actually be able, without any involvement whatsoever in the production of the audio files, to be able to match each to its preamp.
I doubt Bruce Swedien would pass that challenge...
I can't know eldopa's intent in doing this, as words on a page do little for adequately communicating one's true intentions. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing he was really wanting to learn something. But bottom line, the whole concept of the challenge is flawed, as will be all attempts by others to do something similar in the future.
Yes, preamps' performance varies considerably, particularly as the price tags increase and you get into more esoteric designs. No, such comparisons do little to help you decide which of 10 different preamps would be good for you to purchase. You're just pretty much gonna have to get some experience with them to know for sure.
To take this all the way to the extreme, seems like someone would need to record a MIDI driven performance of multiple instruments using something like Pat Metheny's Orchestrion, then pump all those tracks into an identical mix. I'm sure even then someone would say you can't compare different performances.
..ant
There are huge differences in preamps. I do not claim to have years of experience but the difference between my Retro Powerstrip, Great River NV-1 and any typical low end live board pre is pretty great. Professional and unprofessional sounds can be achieved by all of them regardless of price.
They all sound different and achieve different sounds. It doesn't take "golden ears" to hear the difference when you use them. Maybe on some of the higher end gain and straight wire pres you need to A-B but on the more colorful pres the difference is pretty amazing.
When I listen to a finished product I can't think "what preamp did they use" because there are many other critical factors that are more important but the preamp is an integral part. Our bodies are more than a brain, heart and blood and so is musical recording.
I spend the money on quality gear not because I want to have some name brand or studio status but because (unfortunately) it matters. I do not enjoy spending $3k a channel to help achieve a certain standard of recording. I am not saying that this is critical for all recording but it depends on what you are trying to achieve. For me, it is critical because no one makes gear the sounds like a Retro Instruments Powerstrip that is cheap.
I have some pre's in my studio solely for the purpose of impressing clients. That doesnt mean that they dont sound great though. I also have some pre's that people around here shit on all the time. I can get great sounds from all of them.
I really only care about a few things when it comes to a pre:
They have to be quiet.
They have to stay quiet when i'm running an SM7b through it.
They have to be reliable.
If a $25.00 pre will do that then I'm happy. If a $2500 pre will do that, then again, i am happy.
Sooooo many people talk and talk and talk about gear. Many of those people have never even engineered a single real session. Real life is different. Who gives a damn about this pre or that. If it works it works.
To take this all the way to the extreme, seems like someone would need to record a MIDI driven performance of multiple instruments using something like Pat Metheny's Orchestrion
..ant
That's what they did. The SoS tests use a MIDI driven piano.
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