Basic soundman stuff

[matt thomas]

Hire a proper sound guy, who makes a good living off being a sound guy, for a few gigs and learn as much as you can off him.

Its kinda hard teaching someone this stuff over the internet.

good luck

matt

[Irefay Agondray]

I would start by making sure the violin is going through a preamp of some sort. Also, you did not mention if they are using stage monitors, if so, I would start by getting the stage sound mixed well, turn off the mains and make sure the stage sounds good, and that the can all hear one another. Then slowly bring the mains up, trying to maintain the character of the stage sound. The louder you make it, the more problems you will have. Also, try rolling off frequencies that are not in use I.e., high pass the guitar etc....
If the guitar sounds too bright see if it can be eq'd at the source rather than at the board for starters.
In my experience, high mids and high frequencies are usually too loud and distorted at most shows. It often seems like they are trying to compete with loud low frequencies, and drums. Those need to be brought down usually so that the highs can come down a little as well.
I don't know the experience level of the band, but arrangements sometimes need to be different depending on volume (plugged vs. unplugged). If it sounds like to many things are competing for frequency spectrum, then probably there are too many things competing. Just like in recording, what works live and acoustically does not always translate through a PA. You are dealing with less metaphorical "bit depth" and frequency spectrum than in the purely acoustic world.
Just opinions really, I'm sure some would disagree with my methods and I am by no means a live sound professional, but these things have all worked for me in the past.
Btw, please let us know how the gig in ten days goes and anything different that you tried or learned from it as I am always interested in picking up new tricks myself.

Cheers,
Stuart

[piper]

Thanks Stuart! We do have a tube preamp for the violin, and that makes it sound better.

Setting up with the mains off sounds like a great idea. That would solve a lot of issues right there!

All the people in the band have been playing for a long time, but I don't think any have played in a band before. No drums yet (fortunately for me!). They haven't found a drummer they like yet.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by piper

I'm going to be "soundman" for my wife's band. They do rock music, with acoustic guitar, electric bass, violin, and two vocalists (male and female). They had their first gig last week and the sound wasn't very good. I know a little about recording, a little less about mixing, and next to nothing about live sound, but I'm wanting to learn.

I'd like some tips for how to set things up. The bass uses DI. The guitar uses a pizeo pickup. I've built a pizeo contact mic for the violin and that should make it work.

The biggest problem seems to be that the two vocalists and the guitar are all competing for the same high frequencies. The woman sings in a slightly lower register than the man. Think Tracy Ulman and John Fogerty. The guitar was bright. The violin was inaudible. The bass sounded good. Oh, and the guitarist sings too -- mainly high clear harmonies. He sounded good. We made a video tape, and the video sounds better than it did in person, if that helps.

When they play unplugged it sounds great, so the challenge is getting that sound out of the PA. The mixer, if it matters, is a Behringer PMP6000. I know a lot of people are down on Behringer, but I didn't pick it and it is what it is. The speakers are EV. The boxes are waist high and they have horn tweeters. They look old -- like stuff I saw in bars in the 80s.

The next gig is in about 10 days. I'd like to have some sort of plan for setting up the sound before then. Any advice?

Lemme try and give you some things to think about....Its tough, because I would have no idea how things are going to roll out with that specific gear and the place your in. It's also gonna be tough to come up to speed fast, as it takes a ton of experience, overall, but also with the specific gear and place your doing it in. However, a true live guy, accepts any challenge!!! Even Mission Impossible!!!!

I think Live sound, is really very simply about "reinforcement"...As soon as this clicks, you will be loving life. Sure, there are a lotta other things you will need to do. A monitor Mix of the signals hitting the Mixer/PA, sent the Musicians on stage, for one. You will need to watch the stage for mishaps. Stay on the ball. Watch the musicians if they need something more/less in their monitor.

Making sure everyone can hear themselves, [as loud as they want] without feedback is, very tricky. For me it start's with your mic positioning. Assuming you've got a handle on the mixer and routing, to the PA and monitor wedges [hopefully there are some?] Put the Vocal Mic's "off-axis" of the monitor wedges. Use the Directionality of the Microphones to avoid feedback.

It is really hard to mix monitors and the PA at the same time, but with deep concentration and skillful mindset you can make it work. I typically recommend having graphic equalizers inserted in the monitor wedges, [in addition to any channel EQ] that way I can ZONE out frequency content that is feeding, and keep the monitors as loud as the musicians want. I carve out those suckers like a Turkey on thanksgiving!!!

The Vocals will need to cut through the instruments, and everything louder then everything else, is not going to work. I will RUN up to the stage and pimp slap a deaf person for turing their amp louder then my PA. Turning down the People who are too loud, will usually make the vocals way more intelligible at normal gains. No one seems to get this, when I explain it.

You will need to keep a minds eye on stage volume and the relativity to the volume you are running your PA. The vocals will need to be gain staged so they are not being fought by loud levels of other instruments. I find I need to amplify them quite a bit to get over the instruments and stage volume. The relative levels are way different from a 200W marshall, a Vocal and a Piezo Pickup on a String Instrument. You can use EQ is you have it, to make these things overlap better. A lotta times I cut out the extreme bass on the vocals, as they are able to go louder without mush and feedback.

So, patch those pickups into DI's, along with the bass. Start your "mix" with just the mic pre gain's, with the faders at Unity. Then move your faders to desirable "forward/backward" spots in the mix. Try to get a nice level to the Mix Buss, but don't overload it, or go way over zero, as things will get ugly, fast. Use the headroom of the gear and try to get a coherent mix of all the players as best you can.

Finally, don't let the Jar Heads in the Audience break you down, when they say "hey man, I can't hear the vocal, 300FT back in the corner??, or "Hey Sound Man, I think you've got a Node Happening at 500Hertz", or my Favorite "Hey Sound Man, whaddya say you let me take a stab at mixing the last set",

[Manfrensengensen]

It's not practical to post 20yrs of experience here.

Working with someone who know's what they're doing is the best start.
Get a few good books on audio mixing/sound reinforcement and read, read, read.
Or google stuff like:
Mic level
Instrument level
Line level
Balanced audio
Unbalanced audio
Low impedance
High impedance
Mic'ing guitar amps
Mic'ing acoustic guitar
Dynamic mic
Condenser mic
DI box
Boundary coupling
Boundary cancellation
Standing wave
Etc...etc...etc......

Good luck.

[piper]

Originally Posted by Manfrensengensen

It's not practical to post 20yrs of experience here.

I understand. On the bright side, in a year I'll have a year's worth of experiences

Fortunately, I already know about a lot of the basic things you mentioned (all but Boundary Coupling and Boundary Cancellation, actually). Do you have any recommendations on good books? I'm a researcher by trade, so I love that part of learning a new skill.

[Manfrensengensen]

Yamaha makes a good sound reinforcement handbook I think it's called. It has a black cover.

When learning if you come across a phrase or term you don't understand,
Google it and you can read for a month.

[piper]

Thanks. I found the Yamaha book at Sweetwater.

In the mean time, I've also found a number of youtube videos that are really helpful. One of them, 90 minutes in two segments, covers all the functions of a mixer very similar to the one the band uses and suggests various ways to use them in live sound.

The videos are really cool because they let you actually hear the result of various changes.

[Sir Chris]

Let me help you with some basics at least.

First off, Activate the Low Cut button on all the channels except for Bass and Kick drum. We only want the bass frequencies on the two instruments mentioned and not others. By doing this you are clearing up the low end.

2nd: For each channel you're hooking something up to, you will do the following:

Make sure the Gain knob is all the way at 0 (about 7 O clock position), and the fader volume is at the bottom. Activate the PFL button for the first channel, have them play the instrument or sing into mic. Slowly raise the Gain knob and watch the light meters on the right side of the board. Raise the Gain knob till the lights get to "0" (the last green light) and the first yellow light is flickering on & off. Turn off the PFL button and go on to the next channel and do the same. Repeat that process for each item going into the mixer. That is how u set your levels, so no matter how far up you drive the fader volume on that channel, you will not clip the board.

In the end you don't want the red lights to come on where the main meter is at. If they do then you need to turn the main volume fader down. Now, important note. Even if red lights don't come on, on the main light meters while the band is playing, you still need to check on occasion each individual channel while the band is playing by hitting the PFL button (one channel at a time) and making sure your not getting red lights on the main meters. If so then you need to turn the gain knob down till it stops doing it.

In case you're confused let me explain what is happening when you hit the PFL button. Normally, the lights bouncing up n down on the meters to your right represent the overall volume of all the channels at once (that is when all the PFL buttons are off).

When you hit a PFL button on a given channel, what your doing is "soloing" that channel. So the lights bouncing up n down on the main meters to your right now represent the volume of that one channel. And ONLY the Gain knob can be used to adjust that volume. If you turned the fader all the way down (although you won't hear anything coming out of that channel) you would still see the lights bouncing up and down. So therefore the Gain knob is used to adjust those levels.

And that sir is the basics to setting your levels. It will save you from destroying your mixer, PA system and will sound better too.

Also on another note. Research how Feedback is caused. When you have a deep understanding of how it occurs you will be able to troubleshoot on the fly.

[piper]

Originally Posted by Sir Chris

Let me help you with some basics at least.

Thanks!

They had a rehearsal last night and I ran the board. It went pretty well. Everyone seemed to think this was an improvement over the board running itself. There's a lot to think about! The fiddle takes fairly constant attention. Another rehearsal Friday and then a gig Saturday.

The mixer (PMP6000) has nifty lights that seem to make setting levels pretty simple. It has an LED next to the gain dial to show that there is a reasonable signal (I don't know exactly what reasonable is -- maybe -3 db). Also the PFL LED will light up if the signal at the bottom of the strip is clipping.

I got the Studio 6 Designs AudioTools app for my phone, which includes noise generators and RTA. I also got the FFT addon (that mainly for other purposes). I think that being able to see the sounds will help me associate what I hear with frequency numbers a lot quicker. A friend of mine showed me video of the FFT analyzing two tones merging (i.e., "tuning"). It was very compelling.

[shogunkicker]

Originally Posted by piper

Thanks. I found the Yamaha book at Sweetwater.

In the mean time, I've also found a number of youtube videos that are really helpful. One of them, 90 minutes in two segments, covers all the functions of a mixer very similar to the one the band uses and suggests various ways to use them in live sound.

The videos are really cool because they let you actually hear the result of various changes.

Links?

[piper]

Originally Posted by shogunkicker

Links?

This one is great. It's the first part of two. The first is an hour, and the second is a half. From there I just watched other videos in the related content links.

Behringer sx2442fx mixer tutorial/review - 1/2 - YouTube



----------------
So the band had a gig Saturday. It went pretty well. Much better than the last time. I was talking to my wife about some options, including hiring someone. I pointed out that I wasn't sure how to find anyone who really knew how to do sound, since I hadn't heard any bands I liked the sound of anywhere around here. She pointed out that since it's a beginning band maybe it's OK to have a begging sound man

I recorded everything and there were some parts that could have been better, but some parts were good, and there wasn't any feedback.



I've suggested to them that before the next time we should record them in rehearsal, and then play it back while they listen from in front of the speakers to hear it and get their feedback.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by piper

I was talking to my wife about some options, including hiring someone. I pointed out that I wasn't sure how to find anyone who really knew how to do sound, since I hadn't heard any bands I liked the sound of anywhere around here. She pointed out that since it's a beginning band maybe it's OK to have a begging sound man

sounds like a great gal. Marry her. Oh wait...

I recorded everything and there were some parts that could have been better, but some parts were good, and there wasn't any feedback.

to me, this puts you ahead of 50% of the so-called soundmen out there.

I've suggested to them that before the next time we should record them in rehearsal, and then play it back while they listen from in front of the speakers to hear it.

well remember that if you record off the PA, you are only recording the "reinforcement" part of it. If the bass or guitar have amps, for example, you will mix them lower in the PA proportionally and when you play it back, those instruments will sound lacking.

a better 'guide' to how your mix is actually sounding to the audience would be a pair of mics in the room where the audience might actually be sitting. It will of course be 'roomy' but it will be more realistic about the balances you have actually gotten.

[piper]

Originally Posted by joeq

sounds like a great gal. Marry her. Oh wait...

I knew I wanted to marry her when we were on a backpacking trip and the gasoline stove caught fire and she said, "It's OK. We'll figure something else out." We did, btw.

to me, this puts you ahead of 50% of the so-called soundmen out there.

Thanks.

Unfortunately, I have been to a lot of shows where the sound was really bad. I think that one advantage I have is that I'm willing to learn -- I'm approaching sound like learning to play an instrument, and I expect it to be a lot of work and take time. But I want people to hear good sound.

well remember that if you record off the PA, you are only recording the "reinforcement" part of it. If the bass or guitar have amps, for example, you will mix them lower in the PA proportionally and when you play it back, those instruments will sound lacking.

Actually in this case 100% of everything comes through the PA. When they find a drummer things will change, but for now it's all DI and vocal mics.

[imixrecords]

Originally Posted by piper

Thanks!

They had a rehearsal last night and I ran the board. It went pretty well. Everyone seemed to think this was an improvement over the board running itself.

then you are off to a good start! the advice for using filters on all but the kik and bass is very good advice!

[OralnHardly]

Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell

Lemme try and give you some things to think about....Its tough, because I would have no idea how things are going to roll out with that specific gear and the place your in. It's also gonna be tough to come up to speed fast, as it takes a ton of experience, overall, but also with the specific gear and place your doing it in. However, a true live guy, accepts any challenge!!! Even Mission Impossible!!!!

I think Live sound, is really very simply about "reinforcement"...As soon as this clicks, you will be loving life. Sure, there are a lotta other things you will need to do. A monitor Mix of the signals hitting the Mixer/PA, sent the Musicians on stage, for one. You will need to watch the stage for mishaps. Stay on the ball. Watch the musicians if they need something more/less in their monitor.

Making sure everyone can hear themselves, [as loud as they want] without feedback is, very tricky. For me it start's with your mic positioning. Assuming you've got a handle on the mixer and routing, to the PA and monitor wedges [hopefully there are some?] Put the Vocal Mic's "off-axis" of the monitor wedges. Use the Directionality of the Microphones to avoid feedback.

It is really hard to mix monitors and the PA at the same time, but with deep concentration and skillful mindset you can make it work. I typically recommend having graphic equalizers inserted in the monitor wedges, [in addition to any channel EQ] that way I can ZONE out frequency content that is feeding, and keep the monitors as loud as the musicians want. I carve out those suckers like a Turkey on thanksgiving!!!

The Vocals will need to cut through the instruments, and everything louder then everything else, is not going to work. I will RUN up to the stage and pimp slap a deaf person for turing their amp louder then my PA. Turning down the People who are too loud, will usually make the vocals way more intelligible at normal gains. No one seems to get this, when I explain it.

You will need to keep a minds eye on stage volume and the relativity to the volume you are running your PA. The vocals will need to be gain staged so they are not being fought by loud levels of other instruments. I find I need to amplify them quite a bit to get over the instruments and stage volume. The relative levels are way different from a 200W marshall, a Vocal and a Piezo Pickup on a String Instrument. You can use EQ is you have it, to make these things overlap better. A lotta times I cut out the extreme bass on the vocals, as they are able to go louder without mush and feedback.

So, patch those pickups into DI's, along with the bass. Start your "mix" with just the mic pre gain's, with the faders at Unity. Then move your faders to desirable "forward/backward" spots in the mix. Try to get a nice level to the Mix Buss, but don't overload it, or go way over zero, as things will get ugly, fast. Use the headroom of the gear and try to get a coherent mix of all the players as best you can.

Finally, don't let the Jar Heads in the Audience break you down, when they say "hey man, I can't hear the vocal, 300FT back in the corner??, or "Hey Sound Man, I think you've got a Node Happening at 500Hertz", or my Favorite "Hey Sound Man, whaddya say you let me take a stab at mixing the last set",

Spoken like a true live newbie.


Rules about I've sound.

1. Never tell the band to turn down. If they ask, tell them the truth. If they don't, they don;t want your opinion.

2. Learn how to mix a band that is too loud on stage...because...you will be mixing a LOT of these bands...if you intend mix live for a living.

3. Learn how to get vocals up over loud guitars.

4. DOn't make the mix about the kik drum

5. Don't mix at UNITY...you won't be able to do monitors properly...get as much gain as possible before clipping, then mix with your faders...this way you have enough gain for you monitor sends...where your faders land isn't important.

5. If folks are making comments like the above, you probably suck.


There is much more but I think this will get you going for about 5 years.

[Doc Mixwell]

OralnHardly

Snip!

Where do you do live sound, Oral? I'll be sure to avoid your shows. I work sometimes at Players Sports Bar in Rockland, MA, & have been the "sound man" there for just over a year and a half. The people there, seem to like how I work and appreciate the job I do for them.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by matt thomas

Hire a proper sound guy, who makes a good living off being a sound guy, for a few gigs and learn as much as you can off him.

Its kinda hard teaching someone this stuff over the internet.

good luck

matt

another vote for this - get someone who knows what they are doing and specifically ask him to show you. I've been doing live sound of over 40 years, learned only bu doing it, and still learn more each gig...

[BusterBobby]

Originally Posted by loujudson

another vote for this - get someone who knows what they are doing and specifically ask him to show you. I've been doing live sound of over 40 years, learned only bu doing it, and still learn more each gig...

...yup...hire a pro for a show...

[Doc Mixwell]

FruesanHaug,

Snip!

Thats fine with me...I don't care what you think of my technique. Thankfully, doing live sound is a side line thing to my studio and sales gig..

I tell muso's their stage volume is too loud for THE SMALL VENUE I work at..So what...

The owner will walk up to me and ask me to turn my PA down, and then I do...and when the Amps on stage are still louder, he says...."oh, my...tell them to turn it down"

Again...I don't care what your opinion is on it. This is how I work.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by FruesanHaug

Ok...just trying to help. When you see someone who could use a tip and you have more experience than they do, don't you think it's a good idea to tell them? Anyway, you seem to have it all figured out. Cool.

You've lost me with all that,

I've seen you add nothing specific to this thread, other than touting your work experience all over the world, and that you disagreed with my work method.

I am humble. No one is omnipotent, all knowing...As an engineer, I learn new things every day. The last statement you made is beyond silliness.

[Rockinrob]

The first thing you need to do is to get the band to trust that you know what you're doing. Musicians are inherently very strong willed about wanting to control their own volume on stage. It all starts with the drums. The drums will drive the volume of everything else on stage. The drummer plays loud, the guitar player turns up, the bass player turns up..... Get the drums at a level that is manageable and if you need to get a drum blast shield to keep the stage volume down. Everyone wants to hear themselves but if you keep turning up the monitors, depending on what kind of venue your playing, you take the chance of the monitors eventually becoming louder than the PA. It is easy to tell when you've reached this point because the highs in the PA will not be as present as they should be and the sound will be kind of muffled. Keep stage volume down, keep monitors at a level lower than the FOH. Encourage your bandmates to let the PA do the work not their amps. IEMs are a great thing but do take some getting used to. As far as frequencies stepping on each other you will need to work on that to try to give everything it's own place in the sonic picture (very much like mixing a record). That may mean cutting some frequencies from the guitar so that you can boost them a bit on the vocals, cutting some of the bass drum freqs so that you can boost a little bit on the bass. It is a give and take process. First and foremost the band has to trust your opinion and know that when you ask them to do something, whether they feel like it or not, it will make everything sound better. Good luck.

[Rockinrob]

@Oralnhardy, who do you mix? Nickelback? Dude IMHO you need to readdress your mantra for mixing. If it works for you, then good but that is not how anyone including myself that I know has ever thought about mixing a band. Not being critical again if it works for you then good, but every club I have ever played at or mixed at has limitations on volume and unless you are mixing in arenas and concert venues I don't see how you could possibly adhere to you philosophy and get a good mix.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by FruesanHaug

You said you didn't care what I thought of the way you work, so ok then. Very well. You have it all worked out. You are not acting humble. The other poster was being honest with and gave good advice and I second it to let you know that maybe you should listen. That is not silly. I'm sure advice from touring guys is valid, but if you see it as silly, OK then.

Your just trolling me. You have presented nothing here. No meat,

You agreed with a guy who is just pulling our leg's, and I am starting think you and him are the same person.

Follow the engineer, Rockinrob, who commented correctly, on his experience.

Try again.

[Rockinrob]

So I guess you must have a monster PA pushing about 20K watts???? Really!!!! I've been doing this for 35 years, playing and mixing. If the soundman controls nothing, then what is the point. Musicians have fragile egoes and it has been quoted that the smallest unit of measure known to man is how much a lead guitarsit will turn down when asked to, but I mean come on. You cant just keep pushing up the faders over the stage volume. Check out any professional band that has been around for a while. Even in large venues their stage volume is held in check. Some even use isolation boxes for their amps. Not controlling the stage volume is going to kill your singer. I know because I am one. That is unless it is just a bunch of thrash screaming, but even then I'm sure the singer needs to hear himself. And don't you usually set up your input gain as high as you can get it before clipping and then adjust faders afterwards? I'll go along with that. But not telling the band to turn down will only promote a lot of hard work for you at the FOH. If you like making it difficult on yourself, then rock on my brutha!! It's all good.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by FruesanHaug

You can't (nor should you )control how loud bands are going to play. Your job is to deal with how they are playing. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can start becoming a good live sound guy/gal.

I disagree! If the clubowner or an audient or a cop comes up and says it is too loud, you need to communicate that to the band. If it is louder than 105 dBSPL, you need to tell the band. If your system can't get the vocals up over the guitars or drums, you need to tell the band.

If they have been playing too loud for long enough, they'll never understand how loud they really are since they have damaged their hearing. If they damage the hearing of their fans, who is responsinble for that?

God has a lot to do with volume in the room. That is why I rarely deal with rock, especially young players. I once did a six band high school festival, and never again will I deal with children if I can help it!

In other words, the sound person can and should help the band sound their best - and louder is not always better!

[Rockinrob]

This is my last post to this topic, I'm not here to debate how to run sound. Like I said if it works for you then good. I don't have to, and don't, agree with it. I don't think I can tell the band how to play, but as a soundman it is my job to tell them what is going to make them sound better at FOH. I've been that guy on stage who has said, "you're killing my vibe" so I know what that is like. Please don't try to pontificate. I'd love to hear one of your live mixes and then I could decide for myself whether your SOP works or not. The band doesn't have a clue because they are on stage and can't hear FOH. AS a soundman you have to know better than the band what makes them sound good out front or why even be there. It is your job to determine how to handle the mix. If you'd rather keep pushing up FOH faders than turn someone on stage down then so be it. At some point your audience is going to suffer and most places have to adhere to laws about SPLs over a given amount of time. Don't subject your listening audience to an unpleasant experience just because your worried about egoes on stage. Any musician should understand that one of the biggest, not not the biggest thing in live performance is the audience. I don't know more than anyone all I am saying is that in my years of experience your views on mixing don't run parallel with anyone else's that I've worked with either on or off the stage. I'm sure it may be shared by others but I've yet to come across it. That's about all I have to say about that!!

[Doc Mixwell]

STRONG move Rockinrob, echoing MY experience, but I suppose I am not a BIG tour GUY..OOOOOOOO

Somehow, I don't think BIG TOUR GUYS, are going to head to the NEWBIE ZONE on GEARSLUTZ, and start arguing STAGE VOLUME, which is RELATIVE TO A LOT MORE STUFF, and impossible to discuss generally.

Rockinrob, +1 Score

FusbarHogie, Zero

[Rockinrob]

;-)