Multiple compressors stacked: analog vs digital?

[WorshipMaestro]

Originally Posted by GJ999x

Haha.... Worship, sorry if the misunderstanding caused you any stress. You took it wrong. Oh and musicl - thank you, i will check that out.

DUH!! Well, now don't I have egg on my face! I see your intent now and I'm very sorry to have reacted as I did. My apologies, GJ999x!

[Benson Paris]

Originally Posted by stinkyfingers

yes!

edit:
in this pic:
white = source
green = one compressor, 4:1, 4db GR, 10ms/100ms
red = two compressors, 2:1, 2db GR each (4db GR total), 10ms/100ms

in this example, 2x compressors give a "smoother" curve, but at the expense of slightly higher distortion...(may depend on circuit type/design...?)

Thank you, that is very informative. What kind of tool do you us to make the signal envelope visible?

[Benson Paris]

Originally Posted by joe_04_04

Thanks for the awesome graph, there's an obvious difference from the graph, but is the audible difference worth the effort of setting up two compressors every time?

That question cannot be answered, you have to try it for yourself. But as others said, the creativity and fun starts when you use compressors with different characteristics and settings that complement each other. After having found a sound that you like, you can check the science and find out why it sounds good.

It's still an interesting topic.

[stinkyfingers]

Originally Posted by Benson Paris

Thank you, that is very informative. What kind of tool do you us to make the signal envelope visible?

for that pic i used Wave Editor...it's nice because it lets you "overlap" layers so you can compare files/waveforms...(mac only, though...)

it is easy to "match" GR for the two methods with a simple sine wave but when you try with music it is another story...
i think that is where the "magic" lies in the 2 comp method...you can "fine tune" the envelope to a much greater degree with two comps as opposed to one...

*edit: i do not use or condone magic

[joe_04_04]

Got a question on vocal rider, tad bit off topic. I'm probably over thinking this, but I'm confused how you use a compressor and vocal rider in conjunction. Let's say your comp is set to 3:1 ratio and your vocal goes 6 dbs over the threshold and is reduced to only being allowed to go 2 dbs over the threshold. Doesn't vocal rider see the 6 db increase and turn it down something along the lines of 6 db (give or take depending on the range you've allowed it to move).. Resulting in a volume -4 dbs from the original volume? Or am I confusing the order of the plugs? Maybe it sees it as a 2 db increase and levels if out.. Oh idk. Any help?

[WorshipMaestro]

Originally Posted by joe_04_04

Got a question on vocal rider, tad bit off topic. I'm probably over thinking this, but I'm confused how you use a compressor and vocal rider in conjunction. Let's say your comp is set to 3:1 ratio and your vocal goes 6 dbs over the threshold and is reduced to only being allowed to go 2 dbs over the threshold. Doesn't vocal rider see the 6 db increase and turn it down something along the lines of 6 db (give or take depending on the range you've allowed it to move).. Resulting in a volume -4 dbs from the original volume? Or am I confusing the order of the plugs? Maybe it it as a 2 db increase and levels if out.. Oh idk. Any help?

VocalRider acts on the signal it sees at it's input. It is a separate plugin. I think you may be thinking it interacts with the compressor plugin somehow. It doesn't know, or care how much the compressor is compressing. It simply acts on the output of whatever plugin is before it in the signal chain. The compressor has already smoothed the level out, so in the scenario I described in an earlier post I used two different compressors to each gently deal with the peaks and valleys of the signal level, then used VR last in the chain to deal with the remaining extremes.

BTW, VR just rides level as opposed to compressors which tend to lend a sonic character to the signal. The best way to think of it is an automated finger on the fader. Hope that helps.

[joe_04_04]

Originally Posted by WorshipMaestro

VocalRider acts on the signal it sees at it's input. It is a separate plugin. I think you may be thinking it interacts with the compressor plugin somehow. It doesn't know, or care how much the compressor is compressing. It simply acts on the output of whatever plugin is before it in the signal chain. The compressor has already smoothed the level out, so in the scenario I described in an earlier post I used two different compressors to each gently deal with the peaks and valleys of the signal level, then used VR last in the chain to deal with the remaining extremes.

BTW, VR just rides level as opposed to compressors which tend to lend a sonic character to the signal. The best way to think of it is an automated finger on the fader. Hope that helps.

I understand that VR doesn't interact with any other plugin, I was confusing the signal chain order that's all. As for vocal rider, is it possible to use it without having to have any compressors on a track? Not saying you'd want to, I'm just wondering if it works well enough, with the right setting, to be able to work without any compressor help?

[NoEgo]

Originally Posted by joe_04_04

I understand that VR doesn't interact with any other plugin, I was confusing the signal chain order that's all. As for vocal rider, is it possible to use it without having to have any compressors on a track? Not saying you'd want to, I'm just wondering if it works well enough, with the right setting, to be able to work without any compressor help?

Hey I saw the talk about Vocal Rider.

I have a giant arsenal of analogue compressors. The LA2As, Manley, Neve stuff, Tube Tech.....anyway this isn't an add sorry just want you to know that I have done the multicomp things many many times....but firstly Vocal Rider is a great tool for keeping volume on a vocal or bass, not unlike a great engineer manually rides the fader.. but not if dynamics are important. I think it is a very useful tool don't get me wrong, but it has nothing to do with compressors other than if it is up stream it can kill dynamics and have your down stream compressor (s) work less. This can be a good thing if you don't mind your compressor not giving its signature on the vocal. Otherwise it can be affecting to the compressor. It may say to use it last in the chain but who says before a comp is bad. I have used it that way and it sounds fine. In fact with just an LA2A ....which is outboard hardware....you would have to loop back in to the DAW to insert it before the Vocal Rider and that is just something most won't do. I like to use Vocal Ryder to find the hot spots of my track and then put the smile in the vocal with analogue after that. The Vocal Rider kind of acts like a limiter and then one great compressor provides the mojo without slamming the inputs. Just a steady 2 to 5 db is beautiful.
My two cents.

[GJ999x]

Is the main reason the manual goes on about it being last in the chain is for when it's sidechained by the whole mix, i.e. riding to the the vol stable relative to the entire mix? No point doing this halfway through the vocal chain..

When you're not using it for this I'm less clear

(i) how it's different from / not a compressor (which all just ride the volume to an 'algorithm', rite, sometimes with some added goodies (sat. etc) that are nothing to do with compression but about emulating old gear?)

(ii) why there's a reason it should go last (shoot me down here, but a nice level vocal performance into a nice characterful compressor, isnt that not too similar from a pro singer into an old piece of hardware, if you put the VR in the middle i mean? [edit: this isnt a "plugs will make me pro!" point, more that the workflow with plug in the middle could be justified on the basis of it being a tiny step towards how it might normally work on a good day in a pro studio?]

Should say i love the VR, i'm an amateur but i feel it's really helped me with the all important vocal sweetspot vol on the track....

[NoEgo]

Well ..the fact that you must put the VR at the end of the chain is not true I seems. Or else if you use analogue compressors and mix in a board externally then you can't use the Vocal Rider unless you loop back to the DAW. Your signal would normally already be out of the DAW in my case. Therefore I use it before the compressor chain and with plug ins. Mostly external compressors though. I just don't seem to get what I do in plug ins that I do with the external compressors.
You are right to say it is like a compressor in that it controls amplitude but it does not do it with affect like a compressor does. It is deemed by the manufacturer to be non affecting.

I since checked with Waves today and the reply was this.

Dear Lou,

You can put the Vocal Rider wherever you want, just as long as you hear it working the way you want.

Not too deep of an explanation from them but there you go.

[GJ999x]

Originally Posted by NoEgo

I since checked with Waves today and the reply was this.

Dear Lou,

You can put the Vocal Rider wherever you want, just as long as you hear it working the way you want.

Not too deep of an explanation from them but there you go.

Thumbsup NoEgo, thumbsdown waves... come on guys if i'd have wanted that advice i'd have come to the gearslutz noob forum!

[NoEgo]

One thing I can say is this. If you play a held organ note through a comp it changes the way it sounds. The harmonic structure is what creates a note of any complex waveform such as voice, whatever. Those harmonics sound at different levels around the fundamental ....therefore if the note is compressed rather than just maintained in volume as a unit...the note will take on a new harmonic structure. Voila ...why a compressor is different.

make sense?

Yeah the Waves answer was kind a lame.....but you do need to have the music side chained so the level of the vocal or whatever track you are using it on can read the other tracks..this is interesting because they advertise it as taking place of the real engineer riding faders....well...the latter...that is done in real time tracking as much as mixing.
The Vocal Rider seems to be for the mix....more so.....and to sit the vocal in the mix only I suspect. Not to get the best single track level.

[craigdouglas]

stacking compressors digitally helps alot.. most plug in compressors don't sound that great when they get hit hard.. hardware compressors are better for that... but if you divide the work load over 2 or 3 plugin compressors you can get a similar effect

[joe_04_04]

Well, I got a great deal on Vocal Rider on Ebay. I'm a little confused though on its operation. The pdf manual says that the "target" control should be placed at the peak of the vocal range... are you guys doing this? I find that this almost always results in the fader moving up past "0" and hovering in around the 3-5db range. This doesn't make a ton of sense because the fader doesn't move extremely fast, which results in the first few syllables spoken being quieter than the rest (after the fader gets to a good stable point). I was wondering if it would be better to move the target control until the fader is hovering around the 0 db mark. That way it wouldn't make crazy jumps when coming into a vocal. OR would it be better to do like the manual says and place the target at the peak of the range (which will result in the fader moving up to get into its zone), then adjusting the faders "resting" control to be about the spot where the fader is most of the time? I'm not totally sure about these controls. Anyone else?

Sorry, its a little off topic, but after hearing the praise on VR, I figured I should snag it up. And its still in the lines of what were talking about to an extent.

[joe_04_04]

Also, does vocal rider "reverse" what region fades do by pulling them back up.