Newbie getting into Summing

[NeoHippy]

hey,

yes you will need a D/A converter!
i did a quick google search on your soundcard and it seems as the best way to hook everything up would be the adat output...it will provide you max 8 digital outputchannls.(or less if you want to increase the samplerate)

so you are going to need an 8 channel DAC....those analog outs you can hook up to the analog line ins of your desk..
(if you produce in ableton and want to mix it analog)

if you are recording acoustic instruments and just want to do the whole mix on your board, you wont need any further converter, as you can just record the sum to your analog ins of the soundcard

i think i saw that your soundcard has 2 analog 1/4" jack inputs...so you could just hook up the main out of your board back into the analog ins of your soundcard to record the mix you have done!

if you dont have an analog tape machine, the only way to record your mix WILL be to digitalize it....

but i have to say...why do you want to use the board? do you record via mics or do you want to produce EDM in ableton and just mix it on the board?

if you want to produce EDM then, i think its quite pointless buying a board, without any hardware outboard FX's....UNLESS you are willing to spend much more money...

i cant recommend you any good 8 channel DAC for 400 bugs...

hope i could help a little!

[johnnyv]

There is absolutely no advantage to running music recorded with a DAW through all that gear thinking it will sound any better. Use a plug in.

[rxylab]

Thanks NeoHippy, that was a lot of help!

I do produce EDM within Ableton, but I was wondering if the board (Allen & Heath System 8) would add character and colourize the signal. Which was the main thing I was looking for, even adding some depth or fatness to samples etc. But at the same time using it for mixing and equing. This was the main reason why I considered taking the board from my friend (and the fact that he is selling it for £100!). Obviously not asking you for personal experience but overall, would an old 80's board give the desired effect? and would it be worth the trouble getting a DAC to achieve this?

I think I have mistaken Summing as something else, which is why you are saying it is a worthless process? I'm really not up to scratch with all these terms I'm afraid.

Also, I must admit that I have only recently found out it is a System 8 and yet to read up about the board. But I have read that it was heavily used for reggae and dub, which appeals to me because I am producing bass heavy music and is a reason for considering that board.

I guess that I would still need a DAC to achieve this process?

Really appreciate the input

[Howie J]

I dont think the effort/expense would be worth the reward. I sum much of my stuff through a dangerous d-box, which is held to a pretty respectable standard when it comes to AD/DA. The thing is really quiet and clear and gives me a lot of headroom on summing more powerful mixes.

Now, with that said and not having heard the board, i doubt it would give you the magic you're looking for. After two stages of conversion and a possible noisy board, you could be in for a lot of artifacts you dont necessarily want...unless you wanted everything to sound like 1982-1993 (depending on the model MK I, MK II, MKIII)

Even if the board sounds "cool" or warm, or whatever you're looking for, 8 channels of true quality DA and AD to make sure you are not degrading the sound will probably not be in that 350-450 range. Maybe two channels, but not 8 in both directions.....unless you find a hell of a used deal on some apogee, lynx, mytek, etc.

Like i said, even owning one of the more popular summing units, I can say that there are days its great and days i could go either way.

[crosscutred]

Any way you can borrow the desk and try running some stereo tracks through it to see if it makes the sort of sound you like?

[rxylab]

Ok, so if I were to get a really good converter like the Dangerous D-Box or even an Apogee DA16, would I need to upgrade my soundcard as this could be a bottleneck because it's not exactly as high quality like the D-Box or the Apogee?

I do want to try the board before I commit to it which is a good point, but I can't at the moment as I don't have enough space in my studio. I'll be moving house in a month with a bigger space so I will give it a try when I get in there.

Thank you for all the comments so far, this really is a learning curve.

[NeoHippy]

Originally Posted by rxylab

Ok, so if I were to get a really good converter like the Dangerous D-Box or even an Apogee DA16, would I need to upgrade my soundcard as this could be a bottleneck because it's not exactly as high quality like the D-Box or the Apogee?

I do want to try the board before I commit to it which is a good point, but I can't at the moment as I don't have enough space in my studio. I'll be moving house in a month with a bigger space so I will give it a try when I get in there.

Thank you for all the comments so far, this really is a learning curve.

hey,

no problem...

as someone said already, i also doubt that the output will justify the financial input.

no your soundcard will be allright i guess..but thats depending on what you want to achieve...

if you just want to output 8 ableton tracks to your board it will be allright...
cause you can use the digital ADAT interface....so you wont need to convert the ableton tracks in the first place...

if you have good ADAT DAC's...just feed their outs to the board...then you can mix it on them...

the point where your soundcard could possible be not good enough, is when it comes back to recording the mix again...it hast 2 analog ins..so it would work..but i honestly dont know how good its conversion quality is!

or do you want to record the single (eqed, "enhanced") tracks back to ableton? then you are going to need an new soundcard and an ohter 8 ADC's...

cheers

[johnnyv]

I'm not sure what your total track count is in the DAW but one thing you could do is make stereo sub mixes of each set of 8 tracks just to see if this plan is worth the effort.
You can always go back. Only hitch is the running the tracks in real time to process/mix.
I would want to try the board first for sure. Old gear does get pretty scratchy.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by Howie J

I dont think the effort/expense would be worth the reward. I sum much of my stuff through a dangerous d-box, which is held to a pretty respectable standard when it comes to AD/DA. The thing is really quiet and clear and gives me a lot of headroom on summing more powerful mixes.

Now, with that said and not having heard the board, i doubt it would give you the magic you're looking for. After two stages of conversion and a possible noisy board, you could be in for a lot of artifacts you dont necessarily want...unless you wanted everything to sound like 1982-1993 (depending on the model MK I, MK II, MKIII)

Even if the board sounds "cool" or warm, or whatever you're looking for, 8 channels of true quality DA and AD to make sure you are not degrading the sound will probably not be in that 350-450 range. Maybe two channels, but not 8 in both directions.....unless you find a hell of a used deal on some apogee, lynx, mytek, etc.

Like i said, even owning one of the more popular summing units, I can say that there are days its great and days i could go either way.

I use myself a cheap A+H ZED 14 for summing.
And to my ear it makes a difference.
It may can not hold the specs of a new dangerous D-BOX- but it has a sound that is much different form summing ITB.

If someone likes this sound is a different question.

After a few weeks of using it I was positive shocked.
+ LOW NOISE
+ VERY CLEAN
+ GOOD SOUNDING EQs
+ 4 x AUX
+ Build like a TANK
+ Precise pods and faders (I would have not expected this!)

- Just 21 DB of Line Headroom
- ø 74-60 db Crosstalk between 1-10 khz

After a few months you now what it can do and what it cant do.
You should not hit the line inputs hard...

If you start to understand the little live mixer better and better you get something which is more as usable for 500$

[bitmob]

I suppose it would depend on the type of music you're working with, but I wouldn't bother for only 8 channels. At that point I'd still be doing 95% of everything in the box. Also, how old is the board? It might sound clean but how accurate are the pan knobs? Faders? I'd rather work with digital panning and levels if the board isn't up to par with what my ears want.

At the very least you should give it a test run, since you have access to it.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by bitmob

I suppose it would depend on the type of music you're working with, but I wouldn't bother for only 8 channels. At that point I'd still be doing 95% of everything in the box. Also, how old is the board? It might sound clean but how accurate are the pan knobs? Faders? I'd rather work with digital panning and levels if the board isn't up to par with what my ears want.

At the very least you should give it a test run, since you have access to it.

Have you ever tried mixing even thorough one of the cheaper boards?
Logical it should be a sound degradation.... but its a degradation your ear will like. And if you have some compressors as well and or EQs it starts to make sense.... as soon you go back to your old pure ITB workflow you will start to hate it.

This is at least my experience by now.
And this board is everything else as high end gear.

It worth a try to mix a few weeks with real gear in a nice hybrid setup.

[johnnyv]

I think what he is getting at is if you have 100 audio tracks - the 8 channel mixer is not going to be very useful. That's why I was wondering what kind of track count the OP is talking about.

[bitmob]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

I think what he is getting at is if you have 100 audio tracks - the 8 channel mixer is not going to be very useful. That's why I was wondering what kind of track count the OP is talking about.

Bingo!

I just don't see the purpose with the amount of tracks I have in most sessions. I'm very familiar with analog summing and would love to be able to work that way at my current space, but I feel any solution that I'd be happy with is pretty far out of my budget.

[rxylab]

the point where your soundcard could possible be not good enough, is when it comes back to recording the mix again...it hast 2 analog ins..so it would work..but i honestly dont know how good its conversion quality is!

or do you want to record the single (eqed, "enhanced") tracks back to ableton? then you are going to need an new soundcard and an ohter 8 ADC's...

Ideally I would like to record the individual channels back to my DAW, but I know I can't do that with this soundcard. I would have to buy another card like you say.

I'm not sure what your total track count is in the DAW but one thing you could do is make stereo sub mixes of each set of 8 tracks just to see if this plan is worth the effort.
You can always go back. Only hitch is the running the tracks in real time to process/mix.
I would want to try the board first for sure. Old gear does get pretty scratchy.

That was an idea that I had also. I would definitely be trying the board with my workflow before I buy it.

I think what he is getting at is if you have 100 audio tracks - the 8 channel mixer is not going to be very useful. That's why I was wondering what kind of track count the OP is talking about.

That is a very poignant question, and is one that I should have answered earlier. I was actually using the 8 channel figure based on my soundcard, as that is the max it can do. But if it needs be, I would upgarde the soundcard for further channels. I am conisdering doing this because the A+H System 8 desk has 16 channels.

Going on to how many channels I use. I was producing yesterday and I counted in my drum group that I have about 10 tracks, about 6-8 tracks within the synths group, max 4 in my bass group and max of 8 in atmos group. You may think that is all too much but these are absolute max figures. So, if I were to mix on the desk I would do each of these groups individually to the desk, to colourize or eq the desired elements. I would then bounce these back to the DAW and continue any further work. Then bounce the groups individually, eg drums, synths, bass, atmos and vox, and mix those on the desk. To be very honest, if the noise on the board is not the desired effect, I wouldn't consider the board. My production is quite dirty anyway, I don't tend to like a very clean mix. So a little noise from the board would not be too bad.

I'm currently at work at the moment, and this is all I can add. I will add some more info later.

Seriously appreciating all the replies so far. Thank you all so much.