Berliner CM-33 compare to Km84???

[Jpec]

While looking around Ebay I found these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Berliner-CM-33-N...QQcmdZViewItem

I cant help but feel suspicious. I went to the manufacturer's web site and most links did not work. I googled the company and I found nothing but the company's site and ebay auctions. Does anyone have any experience or have heard anything about these mics?

[TheSweetener]

That looks interesting. They're trying to steal some Neumann glory with their name, but that's okay!

Would be interesting to know who exactly is behind "Berliner" and where the mics are manufactured.

Someone should send them a mail about this thread so they can clarify!

[T.RayBullard]

I sent them an email.

http://www.berlinerusa.com/index.html

[Jpec]

Well lets just see if they respond...... but Im not holding my breath

[Rascal Audio]

Except for the black finish, they appear quite similar to these:

http://www.behringer.com/C-2/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Same factory perhaps?

That's not necessarily a bad thing, BTW, as the Studio Projects mics, which are by far the best Chinese mics I've ever heard, are made by 797 Audio in China, the company that also makes the B2-Pro for Behringer (which ain't no Studio Projects mic).

Perhaps these are truly nice. The sound clips seem pretty good, though they don't mention anything about the signal path used for the tracking.

Interesting....

Joel

[Jpec]

I just attempted to call the company using the number found on the site, it sounded like it was a private persons voice mail, the greeting message offered no information other than "sorry I missed your call please leave a message.... " and so on.

[orange]

Originally Posted by Rascal Audio

Except for the black finish, they appear quite similar to these:

http://www.behringer.com/C-2/index.cfm?lang=ENG

very very similar - the capsules look a little different (a small groove round the top of the berliner) and the behringers are $65 and come with a stereo bar.

the spec looks the same too (check out the behringer manual - the tech specs are the same too !!!!)

for example

BERLINER
Utilizing a low-mass diaphragm for wide frequency response and excellent sound reproduction The CM-33's small size makes them an excellent choice for recording acoustic instruments, piano and drum overheads, etc. There is a switchable low frequency roll-off and -10 dB input attenuation. The CM-33 also utlizes an ultra low-noise transformerless FET input eliminating low-frequency distortion, while a gold-plated 3-pin XLR connector assures the highest signal integrity.

BEHRINGER
The C-2s utilize a low-mass diaphragm for ultra-wide frequency response and ultimate sound reproduction and their inconspicuous size makes them perfect for acoustic instruments, overhead applications, pianos and similar..<snip>. there is switchable low frequency roll-off and -10 dB input attenuation. Ultra low-noise transformerless FET input eliminates low-frequency distortion, while a gold-plated 3-pin XLR connector assures the highest signal integrity.


c'mon that's a cut and paste job.

I would suggest that if you want to buy then you PROCEED WITH CAUTION

si

[Jpec]

Good lord!! the Scammer behind this should at least be creative enough to at least write something original!! Should this be reported to Ebay?

[Jpec]

I sent a message to a poor sod who bid on this mic and warned him.

[orange]

strictly speaking the auction title:

Berliner CM-33 Neumann KM 184 Condenser Mic Stereo Pair

breaks the ebay rules - cos they aren't km184s.

I'm not saying that they are the behringers BUT there is no way that I'd bid on them with a great deal of further information.

si

[tommymakestapes]

So Someone finally ripped off behringer. Ha.

[echorec]

Originally Posted by tommymakestapes

So Someone finally ripped off behringer. Ha.

Are the Behringer clones really as good as the originals?

[Jpec]

I still haven't heard from Berliner USA .... waiting

[chriscoleman]

Does no one else see this?:

Behr(l)inger

[snaudio]

i was looking at them on ebay also. I actually got a reply to this email I sent : "Hi, I am in the market for some small dia. cond. i was gonna go geffel or neumann but now you got me thinking. Like most engineer/producers I am a picky dude. The tests against the km's was impressive. Flat recording on both ? Fair comparison ? Same placement/signal path ? thanks for your time. www.seannorton.com norton8858@msn.com "

this was his reply "Hi and thanks for your question. Absolutely NO EQ and NO compression on these tracks and both the km’s and the cm33’s were put through a NEVE VR at Westlake Audio. The ONLY thing that was different was the KMs sat on about 2 or 3 inches farther apart than the cm33’s. I actually really like the sound of the KMs. In fact, I can definitely see where the KM’s would be a much better choice depending on the musical content. They are a bit more “softer” and “easier” on the instrument... a but more “round” and naturally compressed. The thing is, we didn’t do this comparison to say the Berliner’s are BETTER but we did it as a REFERENCE point. No where will it ever say “better”... Just different. Some applications the CM33s will be better and vice versa. The whole thing with recording, as has been said so many times before, is that all applications require the producer to use his best judgment based on what he is hearing and what he is trying to accomplish. But its so nice to have an “arsenal” of mics in your collection to handle just about ANY situation. Good thing is the price wont kill ya in this case and the variety of applications that they will sound good on makes them worth the money.

So I would say, if you're looking to save some money and like the way the Berliner’s sound, based on the comparisons online, grab a set. But if you can afford the Neumann’s, grab them instead... But then again, if you can afford the Neumanns, just bet BOTH!! LOL

Anyway, write me if you have any more questions or concerns. I’m glad you did like the sound of what we did. Also, these recording were certified in the equipment and techniques used only as a precaution and the session stats were recorded and saved by Westlake Audio engineers.

Best Regards and best of luck. Oh, and I have about 10 sets of these left. Berliner says they are going to retail around $649 for a matched pair.

So after these you can probably get them for around $550 street, -/+. I’ll sell a set to you at $450 including shipping if you buy a set NOT currently on auction.

Thanks again

Regards,
Thomas"

When I sent a new email asking about warranty or return policy I received no response. I think my friend at Tidepool Audio was right. Beware. What sounds too good to be true probably is.

[mrhappyballoon]

I thought this was interesting. There actually was a Berliner microphone inventer.

Emile Berliner
Born May 20 1851 - Died Aug 3 1929

Gramophone; Combined Telegraph and Telephone
Gramophone / Microphone
Patent Number(s) 372,786; 463,569

Emile Berliner invented the microphone that became part of the first Bell telephones, and his gramophone was the first record player to use disks. The carbon microphone transmitter he developed varied the contact pressure between two terminals as a voice acted against it.

You can see the rest of the article at:

http://www.invent.org/hall_of_fame/13.html

[dcohen]

Hi Folks!

I appreciate all of your concerns regarding the new Berliner CM33 Mics. I am amazed at your due diligence when it comes to getting to the bottom of any new product or company introduced in the pro audio industry. I spent some time reading the threads and articles on this site and I must say, I was amazed at the comprehensive articulation in which information pertinent to audio gear is exchanged. I don’t participate in these type of electronic message boards. Well I guess, now I do.

I apologize it took me so long to find you as I just received the email directing me to this thread today. We have all been out of town, and for the record, our toll free number was not working properly, and still is not, I believe. The past 2 weeks we have spent moving into a new facility and forging strategic alliances on the West Coast and the South East.

Let me explain: We have NOT officially launched Berliner USA!! We are working feverishly at this time to complete our web presence among many other tasks necessary to make an effective and successful launch. Concerning the eBay ads linking to the site and vice versa: They were made purely prematurely and were not implemented directly by Berliner USA. I do appreciate you bringing this to our attention, although unfortunately, there is little we can do to prevent it. Our plan to officially launch the company is not scheduled until November, 2006. In January, ‘07 you will also see us at Winter NAMM show for our first exhibit. We have not yet distributed press releases or subjected mics to reviews by major publications . However all this is in the works as we roll out the products officially in the coming months.

I would like to also make mention that in NO WAY is Berliner USA affiliated with the audio company Behringer. And I can assure you that ANY mic Berliner manufactures is far and above, a higher quality mic than those priced at sub $400 levels such as Behringer’s. The eBay ads you see were NOT written by Berliner, Inc. USA but by a potential distributor we have been working with over the last several months who also helped us network with potential endorsers for the many products we will introduce over the next year. We did not sanction, nor did we prohibit the listing of eBay ads, but instead requested their help in determining the best price point for these mics between a given range. They are a group of artists and producers in the pro audio industry, and we all agreed they would be a good starting point for us.

Also an important concern we now have, as you pointed out here in this thread, is the wording used in these eBay ads. Although the specs of the CM33s resemble many other small diaphragm condensers, again, I assure you, they are not the same mics as those mentioned in the thread. The actual specs of the CM33s are an improvement over what is written, or taken from other manufacturers’ ads and placed in those eBay ads. I have urged the potential distributor to not utilize wording from any other manufacturer in the future on any website, literature or otherwise. We have yet to provide comprehensive spec sheet data or product descriptions to prospective distributors and affiliates. Only a brief overview of features and specs were provided. This was entirely the potential distributor’s doing which has left us in a bit of dismay. But we shall move forward confidently as we stand behind the quality of our products 100%!

I would like to add with great enthusiasm and confidence that, every producer, artist and engineer who has utilized or listened to these mics on various recordings has fell in love with them! We have worked very hard to listen to our industry peers as to the performance they demand from their gear. Perhaps our potential distributor was a bit overzealous in wanting to be the first to get the CM33’s out there, but we have quelled their excitement for the time being, thus the ads should taper off. In 2-3 weeks you will be able to purchase the mics directly from our first contracted Distributor who will be officially named in the coming days ahead.

We are certainly aware of boards and communities such as this in going at great lengths to scrutinize new products introduced to the market, but oftentimes, unfairly. Being a new company, we realize we have a lot to live up to. And we are confident in our products and certainly up for the task. We also realize that even if an audio product were technically and sonically the greatest product on the planet, (if it were possible) that we should be prepared for battle among the enthusiasts! I am well-aware, although maybe a bit naïve at times, of the online war which is often waged among those who possess a great interest and love for our industry. This includes those who educate, exchange ideas and share informative opinions, along with those who do it for nothing more than the love of creating, recording, mixing and listening to great music!

After all is said and done, in the end, the fact remains the same: The application of capturing sound utilizing a specific type of equipment is subject to various changing and inconsistent factors. We all realize that the choice, if available, of recording technique, acoustic environment, performance, instrument, sound source, equipment, and more remain unique in each situation and oftentimes there are no universal answers. Not the least among the many factors in judging the quality or outcome of a recording is simply a matter of personal taste.

I would be happy to provide the specific detailed technical data pertaining to the recording sessions in LA at Westlake Audio utilizing the CM33’s that are currently available on our website to anyone who emails me. Engineers at Westlake provided us with detailed settings including signal path and levels. I will SCAN the datasheets filled out by Westlake Engineers and email them. Although the site and audio files remain incomplete as of today, there are still many great clips to listen to. The recording was quite simple actually. I can tell you that NO EQ was used, NO COMPRESSION and the mics were plugged straight into the Neve VR in Studio D and recorded directly to Pro Tools HD at 44.1 khz, 24 bit. Mixdown was performed “inside the box” in Pro Tools with no effects or eq. through a master fader bus to 44.1/16 bit Wav then converted to MP3’s you hear on the site using Bias Peak 5.

I look forward to introducing the many high quality microphones and audio products Berliner USA plans to roll out in the coming months ahead. I hope that you will all be fair in your assessment of each product and not pre-judge anything based on what you THINK you know, but what you KNOW you know. Hang in there with us and give us a chance to show you the fruits of our labor of love.

Thanks for listening and thank you for your interest in Berliner Microphones.

Kind Regards,
David Cohen
Technical Support and Sales
Berliner, Inc. USA
email: support@berlinerusa.com

[Jpec]

Well that is certainly more reassuring, thank you.

[RichS]

Check this Behringer model... especially the clip and windscreen!

http://www.behringer.com/B-5/index.cfm?lang=ENG

I suspect that he's telling the truth when he says they're not "affiliated in any way with Behringer." But it sure looks like he's affiliated with the same factory that makes the B-5 for Behringer.

All it takes is a large enough order and the factory will make any cosmetic and packaging changes you want.

As its been said before... beware!

[Rascal Audio]

Well, in all fairness, I do think it's better to wait to see how the Berliner line develops before drawing any conclusions.

Like I said before, 797 Audio in Bejing makes the Studio Projects series of mics, most all of which are wonderful products that are well worth the asking prices and more. The same 797 Audio also makes the B2-Pro for Behringer, which doesn't begin to stack up against the 797-built Studio Projects mics, so even if they are from the same factory (and even if they share much of the same body tooling) that doesn't necessarily indicate that they are the same mic inside, rebadged and sold for more money. It is quite possible that these are very different in design and, hopefully, QC.

The associated costs of tooling, materials, r&d, etc. can easily make the design of unique microphone bodies prohibitive for a new company, so in an effort to keep costs reasonable the focus switches to the 'insides' instead. Unfortunately, people do still often judge the book by the cover, so if these mics are truly good (I thought the sound clips sounded very good) it may take a little more time, but I'm sure they will earn a solid reputation.

I personally like the black better anyway.

Joel

[Jpec]

I asked David Cohen for spec sheets as he offered in the post above has anyone else asked for the info? I have not heard from him as of yet

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally Posted by orange

BERLINER
Utilizing a low-mass diaphragm for wide frequency response and excellent sound reproduction The CM-33's small size makes them an excellent choice for recording acoustic instruments, piano and drum overheads, etc. There is a switchable low frequency roll-off and -10 dB input attenuation. The CM-33 also utlizes an ultra low-noise transformerless FET input eliminating low-frequency distortion, while a gold-plated 3-pin XLR connector assures the highest signal integrity.

BEHRINGER
The C-2s utilize a low-mass diaphragm for ultra-wide frequency response and ultimate sound reproduction and their inconspicuous size makes them perfect for acoustic instruments, overhead applications, pianos and similar..<snip>. there is switchable low frequency roll-off and -10 dB input attenuation. Ultra low-noise transformerless FET input eliminates low-frequency distortion, while a gold-plated 3-pin XLR connector assures the highest signal integrity.

That's just ****ing ridiculous.

And then he says "We did not sanction, nor did we prohibit the listing of eBay ads, but instead requested their help in determining the best price point for these mics between a given range."

Jesus Christ, your 'DISTRIBUTORS' (!) are quoting, verbatim, ****ing Behringer ads?

Oh yeah, I REALLY trust the integrity of your distribution network. Uh huh, I'll definitely be buying from you guys.

What a crock of shit.

I reckon this a ****ing scam...

I'm sorry to everyone here but something about this just SERIOUSLY pisses me off.

R.

[Ol' Betsey]

Whoa...

I need to take a chill pill...



R.

[soundONsound]

Wow wee!! i just found this thread! LOL... its crazy in here~!

Well, I just picked up a set of these mics and I must say they're fabulous! So far Ive used them on Acoustic and a quick drum session and they are quite nice on OHs.

The eBay guy told me hes not really a distributor... well, yet, anyway. Also, I think I understand Cohen... hes saying he never told the guy, "Oh, by the way, you cant sell these on eBay" fair enough...

I asked the dude about the verbatem copy, he said it was a mistake and he was needing a description of similiar product..well, whatever, I know these aint no beringers!!!

So, one happy camper here so far. Yeah ol' betsey, havent you got something a little more serious to be so darn pissed off at?? This all seems so trivial... and how does it affect you anyway? You aint gonna buy them, so... I own quite a few nice mics... and my opinion is, no buyers remorse here and I only own one KM184 and these sound really close, overall. I say the only mistake made by the ebay dude is he copied the wrong ad!!

Peace Out and Chill Out Baby!!

[reid]

Originally Posted by soundONsound

Wow wee!! i just found this thread! LOL... its crazy in here~!

Well, I just picked up a set of these mics and I must say they're fabulous! So far Ive used them on Acoustic and a quick drum session and they are quite nice on OHs.

The eBay guy told me hes not really a distributor... well, yet, anyway. Also, I think I understand Cohen... hes saying he never told the guy, "Oh, by the way, you cant sell these on eBay" fair enough...

I asked the dude about the verbatem copy, he said it was a mistake and he was needing a description of similiar product..well, whatever, I know these aint no beringers!!!

So, one happy camper here so far. Yeah ol' betsey, havent you got something a little more serious to be so darn pissed off at?? This all seems so trivial... and how does it affect you anyway? You aint gonna buy them, so... I own quite a few nice mics... and my opinion is, no buyers remorse here and I only own one KM184 and these sound really close, overall. I say the only mistake made by the ebay dude is he copied the wrong ad!!

Peace Out and Chill Out Baby!!

Now am I being cynical, or does this first time poster seem to have popped up out of nowhere at just_the_right_time, saying just_the_right_things to make a certain mic company look not quite as dodgy as they were coming across?

Ummm.....Mr Berliner - none of us here was born yesterday, and this makes your whole operation look stinky.

[soundONsound]

I believe snaudio, a few posts up. also bought a set of these...AND IS ALSO NEW!!! and in fact, I saw his bid on ebay under the same name... (I think he outbid me on my first shot). I found this thread the same way he did, literally searching google and this thread is the first thing that came up after the ebay ads!!! So please, dont drag me into all this crap! There were several sold on ebay I imagine we will be hearing from the rest of us!

I stand by my purchase... dont be such as ass with new people, will ya?

Your "Mr. (happy not angry like many) Berliner"

[T.RayBullard]

why would anyone want a mic that sounds like the km184?

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally Posted by soundONsound

Yeah ol' betsey, havent you got something a little more serious to be so darn pissed off at?? This all seems so trivial... and how does it affect you anyway? You aint gonna buy them, so...

SOS?

I already apologised for gettin' all whack but NOW you had to start, didn't you?

I'm pissed off because it SMELLS like a bunch shit-peddlers trying to rip people off.

THAT'S why I'm pissed off.

He copied the wrong ad?

Even if it is legit, the fact that some lazy c*** can't be bothered to write his own copy to describe his product just adds to my distrust of gear descriptions (and even 'dealers') that post on eBay.

And the fact he nicked the copy from Behringer? What a wanker. If you're gonna rip something off at least rip off something classy like a pair of Gefell's or Josephson.

OK I NEVER trust things totally at face value on eBay but what, now I have cross reference EVERY description I read because I can't be sure if a dealer is even any where close to being on the level?

That's how it affects me.

And you're just adding to my distaste of this company.

Now let me see, would I buy these or would I buy some MXL's with the new caps?

R.

P.S. Oh and hey, Good Morning everyone!