Trident wars, not the gum...

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Ok, so Oram and Toft both have trident type mixers for around $2500 coming out,the toft being made in china and having a few more bells. So what's the deal, are these worth our notice or are we still better off going with a mackie, spirit(choose your flavor) or just a summing box and no eq? Did anybody get a listen with either of these at any of the recent shows? If these are just crap, what do you recommend for under 5k for 8 channels of eq/summing? Who'll being selling these?
daniel
http://www.toftaudiodesigns.com/
http://www.oram.co.uk/

[mike scott]

I heard the Trident 8T at the Trident Audio booth at AES in October. I was also shown the original Series 80 EQ circuits and the circuit for this new piece. They are the same. I've worked vintage Series 80 and this new guy sounds identical.
The mic pre is transformerless, but still has great character, very similar to the S20 and S40 I already own.

The Toft piece was not working so no idea what it sounds like.

The finish on the Trident was production quality "Made in England" solid and together.
Good luck to them both. I know which one looks / sounds best in my studio.

[Lindell]

guys, no flaming please.....

[Double-Take]

My name is Peter Lanzilotta, owner of Double-Take Studio Services.
We are the New York authorized dealer for Trident products, which does include
the Trident 8T console designed by John Oram.
If any one is interested in obtaining information, please feel free to contact
me at (212) 685-7900. This console will be on display and in stock at Double-Take
early this year.

[PMIReid]

While it is true (as Mr. Scott states) that when we showed our Trident Series™ ATB Console at AES we were not running signal through it - we ARE showing it at NAMM (which is going on right now in Anaheim, CA). It's working just fine, and sounds really nice (IMHO). You make your own decision when you hear it.

There's been a tremendous amount of posting here on GS as to whether or not Oram's product will be better than ours, so I'll not continue that here. Suffice it to say though, the world is a big enough place for both companies - and both products.

As for distribution, we have introduced the Pilot Program, through which the first production run of 100 consoles will be sold - direct from us to end users. We expect to ship the Pilot Program boards in early April.

Following completion of the program, we'll begin a second production run (larger this time). Though the dealer distribution network has not been set up yet, we do expect to begin shipping to dealers from this run. I suspect that will be sometime May/June.

At any rate, feel free to contact me directly here at PMI, either by phone or email for more information. Toll free - 877.563.6335

Cheers,

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally Posted by mike scott

I heard the Trident 8T at the Trident Audio booth at AES in October. I was also shown the original Series 80 EQ circuits and the circuit for this new piece. They are the same. I've worked vintage Series 80 and this new guy sounds identical.
The mic pre is transformerless, but still has great character, very similar to the S20 and S40 I already own.

The Toft piece was not working so no idea what it sounds like.

The finish on the Trident was production quality "Made in England" solid and together.
Good luck to them both. I know which one looks / sounds best in my studio.

Mike, are you going to buy the 8t or the Dream?
I'd like to hear both the toft and the trident but I guess that would be tricky, thanks!
daniel

[mike scott]

I've seen the Dream at Peter's Double Take cause he's nearby and I liked it. (and bought it!)
The Trident Series 8T will be perfect for location work. Soon as it's in the store I'll get one to try. Should be in a few weeks. I know they sold a lot of them at AES and are playing catchup.
I've got a lot of Trident and Oram here in my studio, and I know it has super support with great dealers like Double Take. I also have Tannoys from him.

Don't get the wrong idea man ..I have nothing against Toft. You asked about the two products and I gave my 2 cents. I just know that Toft used Oram for a long time to design his stuff for the original Trident, so I'd rather go with the originator of the sound than take something that is not real Trident.

It's all down to taste. If you like offshore manufacture, go there. I like US and UK, they're a great team.

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by FOURTHTUNZ

Ok, so Oram and Toft both have trident type mixers for around $2500 coming out,the toft being made in china and having a few more bells. So what's the deal, are these worth our notice or are we still better off going with a mackie, spirit(choose your flavor) or just a summing box and no eq? Did anybody get a listen with either of these at any of the recent shows? If these are just crap, what do you recommend for under 5k for 8 channels of eq/summing? Who'll being selling these?
daniel
http://www.toftaudiodesigns.com/
http://www.oram.co.uk/

Their both well worth a serious look. I know for certain the Oram Trident is selling like hot cakes and Im also certain the Toft Trident will also. I dont think there will be much between them soundwise so I guess itll come down to ergonomics and how much the user has been influenced on a forum


But anyone looking to buy a console should seriously check out thse two. I just bought an Amek BC111 which im very happy with. But if any of these two sound better then theres a V good chance I woudl sell the Amek and buy one.

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by Lindell

guys, no flaming please.....

How about giving it a rest. Ive seen you do this a number of times. I live in the Uk which is the nanny state of the world. Across the world political correctness has gotten completely out of hand. I come on forums for a free debate without restrictions (to an extent) You should moderate when its needed, not pre-empitively. I protest. .

[Johnny B]

Ah, the debate continues unabated. What I'd like to see is similarly sized, configured, and priced little mixer based on the technology developed by my good friend---
Dr. Valve Tube.

Sometimes around here, you will see a banner advert in the upper right hand corner that tells us "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"---

"Tubes Rule!"

In light of this fact, it would be very cool to have a little mixer that utilised the technology developed by Dr. Valve Tube.

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by Chrisac

You should moderate when its needed, not pre-empitively.

in lindell's defense, there were other posts here that he deleted. w/o commenting on whether it should or shouldn't have been done, it was not done pre-emptively.

[narco]

Originally Posted by Chrisac

You should moderate when its needed, not pre-empitively.

pre-empitive moderating, thats very american of you for a swedish person..

narco

[RKrizman]

I spent a little time with the MTA board at NAMM. To my ears, on headphones, with the goofy music they were playing, the eq sounded okay, but I wouldn't have guessed it was a series 80 or anything. That's all there was to check. They weren't showing any real multitrack mixing, and the input modules don't yet have the nicer feeling Alps faders that they've promised. The first thing I would do, however, if I purchased this board, would be to replace all the eq knobs. They are way too big for being so close together, and it felt physically uncomfortable trying to reach in and turn them. Not a slam--meant in the spirit of constructive criticism.

-R

[Johnny B]

I talked with Dr. Valve Tube and related the details of these fine topic threads. He said he may consider a competitve product, but if he does, it will be based on all tube technology.

He said he might call it "The Valve-a-Rator Sound-o-Rama." He thought the names of the various models would be shortened to "VS-1, VS-2," and "VS-3."

I dumbly asked the good doctor if that might not get confused with "BS-1, BS-2," and "BS-3."

Now the good doctor's hobby is breeding plants in his private greenhouse complex, so, he replied to my query in this fashion.

"Are you aware that it takes a lot of BS to grow a good garden? BS in the proper proportions can be a good thing, the same thing is true with minute amounts of poison that the chemist calls 'medicine.'"

I almost shut up, but I could not resist this follow-up:

"So, are you saying that with the proper proportion of valves added to a mixer you can get 'that' sound?"

Again, the good doctor replied.

"Don't be foolish. In audio, the only proper proportion is 100 percent all tube. Don't you know that 'Tubes Rule.'"

So we both had a good laugh over a few pints.

I honestly don't know if Dr. Valve Tube will ever develop and exploit a small format valve mixer, but if he does, look out.

[Chrisac]

Originally Posted by zimv20

in lindell's defense, there were other posts here that he deleted. w/o commenting on whether it should or shouldn't have been done, it was not done pre-emptively.

Yeh, actually if you read this Lindell then Im apologising to you. Its no business of mine how you guys wish to run and moderate your forums and I should have just kept my mouth shut.

No harm done hopefully.

[Labs]

I just think Lindell is tired of the same lameass "oram vs toft" fight coming up again and again and again and again and again..

Give it a rest already, and buy whichever console sounds best to you....

Gustav

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I spent a little time with the MTA board at NAMM. To my ears, on headphones, with the goofy music they were playing, the eq sounded okay, but I wouldn't have guessed it was a series 80 or anything. That's all there was to check. They weren't showing any real multitrack mixing, and the input modules don't yet have the nicer feeling Alps faders that they've promised. The first thing I would do, however, if I purchased this board, would be to replace all the eq knobs. They are way too big for being so close together, and it felt physically uncomfortable trying to reach in and turn them. Not a slam--meant in the spirit of constructive criticism.

-R

We are sorry we did not have more extensive program material at NAMM. Namm only gave us a 10X10 booth, and we asked for a 10X30. As you were there, you know we were packed in and had no other room for a multitrack setup.

The knobs are to big. The reason for that is they are Joemeek knobs. We only had 6 final knobs on the aux masters that are smaller and the original ones Malcolm used on the 80B. That is only a production issue. So the correct control knobs are more comfortable to use.

As for the EQ, we had in front of us Audix blasting away on a PA a band, and to the left of us we had a wireless PA rig blasting Tracy Chapman. All of this while you were on non closed ear headphones, so I understand why you did not think the EQ was exact. When you listen to it in a proper environment, you will change your mind. The circuit is exactly an 80B.

Lastly, we never promised Alps faders. We promised Sellmark which are the exact same ones used on all the 80B's and that is exactly what we will use. This was still the first hand built unit without the added VU meters and other updates that we are adding, so I hope you do not judge it as it was. I can assure you the production consoles will everything we promised. We have not spent all this time and effort to do anything that will compromise our position.

We had a great show, many very high profile people were by and have placed orders. We sold a lot of consoles at the show, so know we have to deliver up all we promised. At least we were at the show showing our working console, which is more than I can say for some other company.

[mike scott]

Oh Boy!! Who's the dog with a bone and can't let it go then?

I hope the certain boss of "some other company" gets to read this. ;-)

Just one question Alan: Is the 80B EQ circuit the exact same one Mr Toft commissioned Mr Oram to design in the 70's / 80's ? (The one I was shown on original Trident drafting blue at the AES Show recently)

P.S. Surely the demo track was "Hey Jude" no?

[Johnny B]

Mike,

Isn't there a fairly large difference in the prices between the two products?

Now, if Dr. Valve Tube ever comes out with a small format valve mixer, I would expect it to be priced right between these two companies' figures. The man is a genius in terms of component parts selection and manufacture, so I would expect him to able to deliver price competitive products if he decides to even do a series of all-valve small format mixers.

[Carlos Boll]

I, for one, am looking forward to the Toft console. It really doesn't matter who did what 20/30 years ago as I plan on using it in the present.

At this point I would never touch any Oram product due to their GS spokesman's petty and self-serving posts.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by alanhyatt

We are sorry we did not have more extensive program material at NAMM. Namm only gave us a 10X10 booth, and we asked for a 10X30. As you were there, you know we were packed in and had no other room for a multitrack setup.

The knobs are to big. The reason for that is they are Joemeek knobs. We only had 6 final knobs on the aux masters that are smaller and the original ones Malcolm used on the 80B. That is only a production issue. So the correct control knobs are more comfortable to use.

All of this while you were on non closed ear headphones, so I understand why you did not think the EQ was exact. When you listen to it in a proper environment, you will change your mind. The circuit is exactly an 80B.

Lastly, we never promised Alps faders. We promised Sellmark which are the exact same ones used on all the 80B's and that is exactly what we will use. T

At least we were at the show showing our working console, which is more than I can say for some other company.

If you're responding to me you could have left off the last comment. But since you bring it up, as a matter of fact it wasn't a working console. There was a CD player plugged into two inputs. If it was my actually working console I would have had a laptop with some digital multitrack to feed into the board. You didn't need a bigger booth to do that.

I was actually listening on closed headphones, the Sony's I believe. The rep was just playing a CD. He could have been playing something else, IMO, that showed off the board better. He's also the one who told me the final faders would be Alps, like the red ones on the busses. I'm glad you're not going with that.

As far as the eq is concerned, whether the circuit is an exact copy or not is only part of the story. The quality (meaning nature, not a value judgement) of the signal going into it will affect the outcome. It overstates it a bit, but I often thought that most of what I liked about the high end eq of a Trident was how it accentuated the distortion present in the whole system.

In any case, best of luck. I'm sure you have something good on your hands. The knob size was the only deal-breaker for me.

-R

[Dave Peck]

I saw and heard the Toft console at NAMM over the weekend and it's looking more and more like a really good product. There are still some prototype issues with the one at the booth of course (wrong knob size, no VU meters & no mono button, lacking a full-size padded armrest), but these have all been discussed in some threads here and Malcolm Toft confirmed that all of these changes will be implemented in the production version. They had samples of the smaller production knobs which will not only be more ergonomic but will also make the console look more like a Trident.

The console was indeed passing audio and the EQs do work. Of course it's not possible to do a thorough critical listening test on a NAMM show floor, but I was able to stop by the booth again when things were a little quiter and I got a chance to check out the EQ using headphones. IMO, the EQ sounds right. Specifically, the midrange bandwidths are well chosen - just narrow enough to let you pull something out of the mix without simply making it louder, yet broad enough to be a musically pleasing and natural sounding tone control, with no hint of the harsh 'wahwah' effect you get when sweeping some EQs. I liked it a lot.

Dave Peck

[Labs]

Originally Posted by mike scott(The Manning1 of Oram)

Oh Boy!! Who's the dog with a bone and can't let it go then?

Shut up already, or at least put your company affiliation in your signature...

"show all posts by Mike Scott" shows that all you do is praise Oram products and diss Toft products, and thats ALL you do....


Gustav

[EveAnna Manley]

Who is "Dr. Valve Tube" and why is he lifting my "Tubes Rule®" slogan?

[heyman]

Ok, forget about the consoles..

How about this...

Mike Scott Vs Alan Hyatt in a steel cage match with special guest referee Fletcher..


Cant we all just get along. I love you guys.. I reallly do..

[mike scott]

Mr Grinderslev,
Maybe you should "moderate" your tone a little. At 26 you should show respect.

I speak as I find. I have nothing at all to do with the ORAM company or TRIDENT AUDIO except for trying and buying.
You'll find me on plenty of other forums supporting deserving manufacturers.

If you knew your recording business you'd know who to credit and who to criticize.

Get the real facts on Toft and Oram first!

There's platinum and gold on my walls, what's on yours?

[Lindell]

,,,

[subatomic]

Originally Posted by mike scott

Mr Grinderslev,
Maybe you should "moderate" your tone a little. At 26 you should show respect to your elders.
I speak as I find. I have nothing at all to do with the ORAM company or TRIDENT AUDIO except for trying and buying.
You'll find me on plenty of other forums supporting deserving manufacturers.

If you knew your recording business you'd know who to credit and who to criticize.

Get the real facts on Toft and Oram first!

There's platinum and gold on my walls, what's on yours?

how horribly sad

[JOHN ORAM]

Nothing to add here yet. We are at law with infringement of our legally registered trade marks and use of my original copyrighted circuits designs and subjudice prevents further discussion.

We showed a working Trident(R) Series 8T at AES, sold more than we expected, and are actively involved in delivering goods.

We also showed "The Light" console, PAR Excellence Award Winner, which is nearing production ready for Messe in Frankfurt and I will be pleased to talk about that up here in the near future.

Thanks to the Moderators of GS who have asked me to come to the table and talk history, designs and matters of pro-audio interest.
I look forward to it soon.

JOHN ORAM

[Labs]

Originally Posted by mike scott

Mr Grinderslev,
Maybe you should "moderate" your tone a little. At 26 you should show respect to your elders.

Like the respect you show Toft by running your little smear campaign? If you have done nothing to earn my respect than live longer than me, then you have done nothing to earn my respect Mr Scott...

Originally Posted by mike scott

I speak as I find. I have nothing at all to do with the ORAM company or TRIDENT AUDIO except for trying and buying.
You'll find me on plenty of other forums supporting deserving manufacturers.

Im not moderating on other boards, only this one, and all I see you doing on this board is going out of your way to be a dick to Toft and praising Oram (sorry - ORAM company and TRIDENT AUDIO).If it was just a few posts among others stating your opinions that would be fine, but there is a really clear pattern to your posting - Its all youve been contributing..Nothing else. You are deliberatly sabotaging threads where Toft products are involved, and youve been disrespecting your elders..I cant let that go by unmentioned..That would make me a bad moderator.

Originally Posted by mike scott

If you knew your recording business you'd know who to credit and who to criticize.
Get the real facts on Toft and Oram first!

If you had any reading comprehension you would see that I dont care about some stupid past bullshit, and that my problem with you has nothing to do with the facts of that case. I repeat - For some reason you only feel like posting something when you have a chance to attack Toft or defend Oram, and thats my problem.

Originally Posted by mike scott

There's platinum and gold on my walls, what's on yours?

Donald Trump? Is that you?
I have paint, my interior decorator has a sense of style....

If you really have recording experience that goes beyond fiddling Oram's knobs you should have contributed some of that to this board instead of what is now about 50 posts of worthless arguing.

If you stop it and do something to get a more nuanced posting history, I have no problem, but if you still think youve been set on this board to chase ghosts, then I do..People will listen to the consoles. If they like what they hear, they might just buy them, regardless of the facts of some crap that happened 20 years ago. Unless you wanna start posting about the time Malcolm Toft ate a baby I doubt you will get anyone to boycott his products on principle!


Gustav

P.S. Next person to start an Oram vs Toft fight goes to bed with no dinner, regardless of age!