PT TDM / RTAS Rumours

[Shaman]

I heard, they plan to discontinue the TDM buss / TDM plugins and have only RTAS plugins instead on a mixed PCI Card / native basis....

Seems they are learning the native lesson at digi.

I´m wondering how much DSP the new 10 GHZ Mac equals in HD process cards ?

If this turns out right, all PT users are facing very nice times

And overpriced Waves TDM bundles very bad times

[b3beater]

If that's true the LE rigs are never going to leave the 32 track realm. Or in a worst case situation will kill the LE systems and have just the M-Powered and the HD systems.

If only Logic would be more friendly or Nuendo a tad bit cheaper. It's surprising that Apple hasn't revamped the interface and structure of this altogether. For a company that prides itself on ease of use they sure as hell have the the audio program with the highest learning curve.

[eskay]

Originally Posted by Shaman

I heard, they plan to discontinue the TDM buss / TDM plugins and have only RTAS plugins instead on a mixed PCI Card / native basis....

Seems they are learning the native lesson at digi.

I´m wondering how much DSP the new 10 GHZ Mac equals in HD process cards ?

If this turns out right, all PT users are facing very nice times

And overpriced Waves TDM bundles very bad times

How true is this???
And why would they do this???

[84K]

There is no way on God's green earth that Digi will do away with TDM.

You can quote me on that for the rest of time. That would be corporate suicide. What you have heard is undoubtedly a rumour and nothing more. (most likely started by an LE or Nuendo user)

[title]

[quote=Shaman]I heard, they plan to discontinue the TDM buss / TDM plugins and have only RTAS plugins instead on a mixed PCI Card / native basis....

where did you "hear" this? sounds more like "i think". or do you have some insider information?

there is more to TDM/HD systems then just the plugin count. it's the robustness of the mixer and the tight integration with thier interfaces. oh' and their plugs do sound amazing......

this is how rumors and the like get started. it seems people like to specualate and go way outside of what is true and they call it "i heard" or "they plan to"..... let us know if you heard it from someone at digidesign or lets not get all excited....

[Shaman]

Heared it from a dealer quoting from a digi dealer conference - not more - not less

After all, what´s so crazy about it ?

Targeting the logic / 10 GHZ G5 / frustrated logic<-->PT hybrid user musician market they could have realized that the future lies in an INTELLIGENT combination of PCI and native DSP IN PT...I wouldn´t call the current integration of RTAS & TDM plugs in the same track intelligent.

what f.e. about an engine which dynamically uses only the areas of a plugin which actually are IN USE....like the different unused freq. bands of an EQ or the limiter / warmth section of dynamics plugs.


Why does a 13 k PT system have to spend at least 1/3 of a 5k PCI card on the mixer surface alone ?
Why not an intelligent engine mixed between native and PCI ?

The new software name is HD 7 - where´s TDM ?
RTAS performance is allready enhanced 50 %, RTAS in Aux tracks, RTAS in Master tracks, which could be a sign for the new direction

I´m sure they are intelligent enough to keep at least some kind of DSP cards / interfaces / software / control surfaces as entry cards for the PT world

You will need interfaces for connecting PT to the outer world --> therefore you´ll need proprietary PCI cards


Asking my initial question again:

How much DSP in HD cards is the new 10 GHZ MAC G5 with logic pro ?
Is it an HD 2 or a HD 3 ?

Cause this exactly is the question, which most musicians are asking:
why spending 13 k if I get the same dsp with a 3.200 $ 10 GHZ mac.

Opening to the native world is digi´s only possibility to get some territory in the recording musicians´market back. 8 years ago digi´s position in music studios was at 80 % and 20 % in postproduction. Now it´s reverse. Food for thought.

Just thinking loud and speculating............doesn´t hurt

[title]

then just remember that if this doesn't come true (and i'm prety sure it wont). that your dealer isn't dealing a full deck......

[Switchcraft]

I think It is inevitable that process cards will go by the wayside eventually. moores law... I have three tdm's, but I am not mad, its not happening now or next year, but 4 years from now computers will be approaching 20 gig processing. who will need pricey dsp cards at that point? Delay times will come down, plugins and track count from single Hard drives will go up. so why wouldnt they go away?

[Shaman]

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

I..., its not happening now or next year...

In digi´s case I would interpret moore´s law like this:

Whenever they release a major software update in autumn,
something totally new will come in spring


Quote me if I´m wrong

[chadly]

Originally Posted by Shaman

In digi´s case I would interpret moore´s law like this:

Whenever they release a major software update in autumn,
something totally new will come in spring


Quote me if I´m wrong

zing!

[vudoo]

I don't know why people are so freak out by the fact that Digi will eventually put out better/faster hardware/DSP. Don't Apogee and all other manifacturers put out new and better products at an alarming pace ??? ? What's the big deal.
Anyways, proprietary system will always exists and, in most case, always outperform native solution, so thinking that Digi will abandon TDM and go totally native is crazy.

[Shaman]

Originally Posted by vudoo

...so thinking that Digi will abandon TDM and go totally native is crazy.

No one said TOTALLY native.

I said a new, more intelligent engine and a uniformed , more flexible RTAS plugin format ,which can use BOTH PCI AND native DSP.

[not_so_new]

I just don't see Digi getting out of the hardware game. I do think that they are losing sales because the mid-end market types (like me) are not going to fork over the cash for a HD system that will be out dated in a few years but do not want to step down to an LE system.

I think Digi has thought this whole thing over and they are happy to lose the mid end sales while keeping the high end and low end. If they produced a LE system that let me use my Apogee 16-X with native software and higher track counts they would start to dig into their high end market. I am sure they have done the market research on this.

Also the thing that I like about Digi software is the stability, the lack of bugs and the ease of use. This comes from using dedicated hardware interfaces and cards (and quality programming). That is really the thing that sets ProTools apart from other DAWs. Again I think Digi realizes their sales edge is the stability of their product and the only way they can ensure the stability of the product is to control the hardware.... that and they make a killing off the hardware sales....

he

That said, I would LOVE to see a mid level native product from Digi. That would be really cool, I don't think it will happen any time soon if ever but it would be nice.

[ransomRR]

Perhaps digi is moving LE to midgrade and leaving M-Audio for the low end stuff. Maybe adding a new interface with 16 digital i/o and ADC. That's about the only reason I would go to TDM. But it still leaves you with 32 tracks and only 16 i/o and native processing so the big guys will still want to go TDM. I really don't understand why they won't put ADC on LE. Wouldn't they want PT to sound as good as possible no matter what? I can understand crippling track counts or i/o, but everyone else is using it now and it doesn't make sense to me why digi would intentionally cripple the sound quality of what otherwise is the perfect DAW.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Shaman

I´m wondering how much DSP the new 10 GHZ Mac equals in HD process cards ?

It's never linear as you add CPU's. I'd expect an ever-shallower curve.

The hybrid/native thing is all conjecture, though. Just gets people worked up.

Now, where's my BRC?

[juicemaster1500]

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

4 years from now computers will be approaching 20 gig processing. who will need pricey dsp cards at that point?

I think we're going to need them even then, new generation software algorithms are getting heavier and heavier. The PSP 608 delay is a good example, totally awesome sound, but with 96k processing it can tax a intel 3 ghz cpu 100% with certain settings.

[T_R_S]

I run out of DSP with my 7 crad sHD system when mixing so I can't see any native system coming close to what i need in the next 2 or 3 years.
Plus one simple fact TDM verions of the same Plug-in's sound different than the RTAS counterparts.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

Plus one simple fact TDM verions of the same Plug-in's sound different than the RTAS counterparts.

You make an assumption here. When in fact, you are wrong.

I have done comparisons using the same plug-ins in a native set-up and TDM set-up. The 2 files cancelled completely.

[Harley-OIART]

Originally Posted by Henchman

You make an assumption here. When in fact, you are wrong.

I have done comparisons using the same plug-ins in a native set-up and TDM set-up. The 2 files cancelled completely.

Does anyone know the following to be true :

TDM plugins sound exactly the same the only benefit of a TDM plugin is that you can run it inline with the TDM buss with thus giving you the power to record with that particular plugin but minimal latency (as compared to RTAS where you would have to wait for the host cpu to do the processing and return the processed data back to the TDM Buss)

I am just guessing as best I can here. Please correct me if you know this to be totally inaccurate. Also for those interested, when speaking one day with the head technician / CEO of McDSP he assured me that exactly the same code is in the TDM plugin as the RTAS Plug. (Except for of course the mandatory differences) So yeah... they sound the same.

Warm regards,
Scotty

[Shaman]

TDM and RTAS absolutely sound the same

Harley,

Under a TDM engine the RTAS latency problem may occour
-> probably not under the new engine

[markus enochson]

shaman - i think u are worng

the dropping of tdm from the name is just a case of digi's aim to market the diffrent products. hence protools HD is based TDM architechure able to run rtas.

then u also have LE and M-powered based on respective interfaces and RTAS functionality.

for the PT7 version they re-wrote how RTAS functions so its more efficient - hence u can run more plugs. This by no means affect how the TDM side of things works.

Intresting will be to see how the next version of Logic with support from PT7 functions for us using the TDM/DTDM and logic side of things.

to drop TDM would be utterly stupid and there is no point at this stage...


markus

[~ufo~]

Well,

this whole thing addresses my current problem and long lasting frustration w/ digi.
Basically, they don't offer anything in between of the LE and HD.

I've been using two 001 systems for the last few years and with good results.
But the 18 I/O max is just too limited for serious recording situations, at least for the way I like to work. Also I sync the two systems to get a max of 36 outs going to the console on serious mixdowns. This works fine but it's painstaking and time consuming.

I'll be soon expanding my studios by adding a spacious mixroom.
For my tracking room I want a DAW w/ 24 inputs, not much DSP required at all.
For my mixroom I want a DAW w 16-24 inputs and 48 ouputs, moderate DSP required.

Now, I know digidesign wants us to mix ITB, but I prefer not to. Turning my PT systems into glorified MTRs.... I like the editing, playlists and wealth of plugins.

BUT nothing in my turnover so far (been focussing on my own projects too much) justifies investing in two HD systems, let alone the ones I'd need.
I don't need all that horse power either.
And I'm sure not gonna take a loan to invest into digital technology!

they only thing I can do w/o moving away from PT (which I don't want to) is buy last generation's mix systems to buy me some time.

but I'd sure like them to release something that at least gives me a decently priced 24 input system for my tracking room.

P.S. The reason I don't want to move away from PT is that I want other people to start using my rooms a lot, as I'll be touring quite a bit too.
Even when I'm at work in one room, I'm gonna wanna fill the other room.

[1150post]

Originally Posted by Shaman

No one said TOTALLY native.

I said a new, more intelligent engine and a uniformed , more flexible RTAS plugin format ,which can use BOTH PCI AND native DSP.

I can't find the posting on the DUC at this moment, but in the midst of a PDI --> PCIe thread, a Digi Support Rep stated that Digi was introducing an ethernet based DSP device...

If I get a moment, I'll dig it up and post the link, if it's not gone!

FWIW...

EDIT---

Found a link to the thread,

http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.p...v=1#Post904544


Read the whole thread... while it seems to be an ethernet based expansion chassis, one has to wonder.

Brad McIlvaine
Sr. Mixer/Designer
Henninger Media Services
Washington, DC 20036

[kats]

Host processing will never catch up. Software is driving hardware to improve. Just when you think your CPU can do it all, a whole new flock of software will come out that will blow the old stuff away - but will be too demanding on your CPU. And what you thought was great software now, you'll look back in a few years and wonder how you got anything done with it.

Look at the gaming industry - every couple of years you need a new video card to run the latest greatest games, it's never ending. I always thought that these hardware companies should be subsidizing the gaming companies for that reason


Digi? I wonder why their giving away the free stuff....EQIII, Dynamics III etc etc. My guess is they're making way for a new breed of software that will run on the new and improved "super accelerator card"

[markus enochson]

1150post - this has been around the grapewine for a while but the idea is this.

mac rumours says that pci in any form will dissappear like i g6 or whatever. digi soloution to this and all of these pci bus changes will be a standalone unit with ports to connect you i/o...

at least that the rumours...

m

[kats]

Originally Posted by ransomRR

Perhaps digi is moving LE to midgrade and leaving M-Audio for the low end stuff. Maybe adding a new interface with 16 digital i/o and ADC. That's about the only reason I would go to TDM. But it still leaves you with 32 tracks and only 16 i/o and native processing so the big guys will still want to go TDM. I really don't understand why they won't put ADC on LE. Wouldn't they want PT to sound as good as possible no matter what? I can understand crippling track counts or i/o, but everyone else is using it now and it doesn't make sense to me why digi would intentionally cripple the sound quality of what otherwise is the perfect DAW.

There will probably be more LE features added to the list as the market moves closer and closer to 5.1 is my guess. Then LE will be a competative stereo app and HD will be the choice for the big boys doing 5.1...just a WAG

[espasonico]

Well, with the X-HD card from Apogee that allows you to use Apogee´s hardware and without the need of the accel cards, is Digidesign going for just a Software company ? It´s hard to believe that in the PeerToPeer days we are living but you never know.

[Berolzheimer]

They may be going to a different bus architecture, as TDM is an old standard & has bandwidth limits, But I believe it will still be dedicated hardware- a new version of TDM or an equivalent. As i said in a previous thread, the math is simple, dedicated hardware DSP plus Native DSP will always be more powerful than native DSP alone.

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by espasonico

Well, with the X-HD card from Apogee that allows you to use Apogee´s hardware and without the need of the accel cards, is Digidesign going for just a Software company ? It´s hard to believe that in the PeerToPeer days we are living but you never know.

And what card would hook it into?
X-Cards require the presence of a Protools card to interface with.