MBox 2: will you part with the cash?

[thenewyear]

Here it is as I see it:

Pros:-

• 4 simultaneous inputs
• Dedicated monitor control
• Phantom button on the front (at last! maybe they DO listen)
• Mono button
• MIDI I/O
• Looks like it might rackmount easier than the last one.

Cons:-

• Limited to 48kHz
• Still only USB v1.1 (I take it back THEY AREN'T LISTENING AT ALL )
• They removed the inserts (it was a nice feature why take it away?)

For me its not enough. The new features are great but the unimplemented and removed features are deal breakers.

damn picture isn't showing up but if you got to http://www.digidesign.com/imageviewe...ms/mbox2hw.cfm you can see it without the daft handle.

[Vaphoron]

I think its cool but its not enough to make people throw the old Mbox out and run to the store for a new one. Will I get one eventually? Yes. I have owned every Pro Tools system Digi has released in the past 6 years so I can't stop now can I.

[blackcatdigi]

I've been wanting to pick one up for editing away from the studio. Was hoping for a little more than the MB2.

So, I'd be more likely to get the original for a lot less money.

[Vaphoron]

Originally Posted by blackcatdigi

I've been wanting to pick one up for editing away from the studio. Was hoping for a little more than the MB2.

So, I'd be more likely to get the original for a lot less money.

Hehe, I'm selling mine if you want one.

[thenewyear]

The more I think about it the more I think its a real shame. Digi had the chance to come up with the De Facto small-scale-location-recording/editing-on-the-go rig. And they nearly got there too.

It even looks a lot better than the MBox or 002/002R (once you remove that UGLY handle). Thank god they finally produced something in the LE range which is metal and looks even slightly professional.

But they dropped the ball when intentionally crippling it so that it wouldn't eat into 002R sales.

They should have looked more closely at the Metric Halo ULN2 when they were designing this thing.

[peterr]

No way man, digi has lost me. Next interface will not be from Digi.

- still no external DC power option

- no 96k

- still usb 1.1

- no inserts

LAME!

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by peterr

No way man, digi has lost me. Next interface will not be from Digi.

- still no external DC power option

- no 96k

- still usb 1.1

- no inserts

LAME!

well in every advertisement for the mbox it emphaises its portability. If it is marketed for portability external power and inserts are kinda mute dont ya think?

If you are going to carry around external gear that needs mains power you may as well use a 002R.

They'd never push it up far enough in specs to diminish 002 sales... I think this is digi's way of saying "if you need a studio interface, get the 002. If you need something mobile go with an Mbox". From a customers perspective it seems stupid but its good business.

Isn't there a whole boatload of M-audio interfaces that cover what people are complaining is missing?

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by Ziggy!!

Isn't there a whole boatload of M-audio interfaces that cover what people are complaining is missing?

Probably so.

But, all I want is a dongle that will let me edit sessions W/O all the H/W...

No recording. Just playback and edit away from the studio. That's it! Plug it into my laptop or home comp and edit.

Am I all alone?

[thenewyear]

It's interesting to view this poll in conjunction with the other poll doing the rounds at the moment. What sample rate do you record in?.

Only 20% of us actually record at higher than 48kHz and yet most complaints about the new MBox mention the lack of 96kHz as a real problem.

[yeloocproducer]

Well lack of 96K is a real problem. When you need compatibility with someone elses's session one day, you'll be really bummed that you don't have it. As an owner of an HD system, I was reallly hoping for a box that would do 88 or 96 so that I can have other engineers do edits on big sessions without tying up my main computer. Or doing edits on the plane, etc. I mean, midi is not important enough to justify a whole new version of the m-box. I've got one of the old ones and won't be upgrading.

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by blackcatdigi

Probably so.

But, all I want is a dongle that will let me edit sessions W/O all the H/W...

No recording. Just playback and edit away from the studio. That's it! Plug it into my laptop or home comp and edit.

Am I all alone?

no you are amongst friends!! I've wanted one of those for years!!! Doubt it will ever happen.....

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by thenewyear

It's interesting to view this poll in conjunction with the other poll doing the rounds at the moment. What sample rate do you record in?.

Only 20% of us actually record at higher than 48kHz and yet most complaints about the new MBox mention the lack of 96kHz as a real problem.

Did it even occur to you that the reason for this is because those people who want to record >48khz don't have a solution to do so?

That being said, I'm looking at the M-Audio solutions with Pro Tools M-Powered.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by toolskid

no you are amongst friends!! I've wanted one of those for years!!! Doubt it will ever happen.....

It existed until PT 24...

[pan60]

i am done with digi!

[C.Lambrechts]

One thing that keeps stunning me ... and I'm serious ... look me in the eyes and tell me your dead serious without blinking or getting red cheeks :

How in the world do you seriously expect to do 96k, even remotely decent sounding 96k at that price ? And you guys moan about it ... puleeezzzz .... gimme a break here.

HEY I WANT 96K FOR LESS THEN 500 DOLLARS AND I WANT IT TO BE HIGH END AND I WANT IT DO HAVE INTEGRATED BLACKBURST VIDEO SLAVE SMPTE GENERATOR POSSIBLITIES AND 356 REALTIME AUDIO TRACKS PLAYING BACK OFF TH INTERNAL DISK OF MY ACER LAPTOP AND I WANT IT TO BE WIRELESS AND I THINK DIGI SHOULD GIVE ME A 48 CHANNEL ICON UPGRADE PATH POSSIBILTY FOR UNDER 1K.


Sigh .....


And before someone comes with the inevitable, yeah but I don't wanna record with it but I wanna use it as an editing system so I can tweak vocals when I'm not sitting in the studio behind my HD7 Accel system ....

What are you going to tweak it with .... that set of Lavry gold convertors you have hooked up to your 800 series B&W speaker system at home right ? So you can actually hear what you're tweaking .....

OK ... in that case .... you may complain. But if that's the case I doubt you would be looking at the mbox anyhow.






Now shoot me ........

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by C.Lambrechts

And before someone comes with the inevitable, yeah but I don't wanna record with it but I wanna use it as an editing system so I can tweak vocals when I'm not sitting in the studio behind my HD7 Accel system

Yup, Chris...

(Obviously) count me in for this one.

What are you going to tweak it with .... that set of Lavry gold convertors you have hooked up to your 800 series B&W speaker system at home right ? So you can actually hear what you're tweaking .....

Headphones, home stereo, 'course I do own 5 sets of studio monitors... Guess I could set a pair up. Doesn't even really matter for comping vox, BD/SSing drums, etc. IOW, BS detail work on less than stellar, bill-paying clients.

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by C.Lambrechts

Now shoot me ........

Let me fire the first shot

1. M-Audio Audiophile Firewire interface, $199 at Sweetwater.com
2. Pro Tools M-Powered software $299 at Sweetwater.com

It does 96K, has MIDI, all it needs is phantom power and XLR and that's it.

So it can be done, and for the most part, already has been.

By the way, I'm thinking of getting the above setup, and putting an Apogee Rosetta 200 in front of it

[C.Lambrechts]

Originally Posted by Kestral

So it can be done, and for the most part, already has been.

Right ... now can you please go ask Lavry and Apogee and Prism and Weiss etc why they charge so much for their AD ... Hell some of those apogees only do AD and look at what a 250$ soundblaster can do compared to that ... they do 96k too ....

[Jorg]

Originally Posted by pan60

i am done with digi!

So am I! I am an MBox owner but rarely ever use it. I only have PT because sometimes people walk in with a PT session.
I have an additional MAudio card (will upgrade to RME Fireface very soon) for my work in Cubase.

I thought about keeping the MBox just for the sake of it, but now the new one is out (which i think is a ridiculous piece of gear, considering that its supposed to be an upgrade) and soon my MBox will drop even more in value.

Now we all know digidesign: Soon PT 7 will be out. MBox 1 owner will be charged loads of money and then at one point (probably at version 8) they will discontinue the support for the MBox 1.

Well F**k that!

I AM DONE WITH DIGI AS WELL

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by Kestral

Did it even occur to you that the reason for this is because those people who want to record >48khz don't have a solution to do so?

That being said, I'm looking at the M-Audio solutions with Pro Tools M-Powered.

riiiight. Only 20% of people own 96khz capable converters, even though they have been avaliable for the better part of 5 years (or maybe its 7 years). high quality converters yeild very minimal improvements when moving between 48khz and 96khz. Improvements that are counteracted by reduced track and plugin counts.


Why don't you go argue sample rates and software mix busses and leave us guys who have used our ears to decide 48khz is more than fine on out 96khz capable converters have some fun.

[peterr]

well in every advertisement for the mbox it emphaises its portability. If it is marketed for portability external power and inserts are kinda mute dont ya think?

how does a small DC input jack affect portability? you dont have to bring the wall wart if you dont want????? Bus power is fine for when you have nothing else (in the bush) but at least the option of a wall wart is necessary. There have been WAY too many problems with Mboxes not running because the USB bus can't supply enough power. 2 mics hungry mics on phantom? forget it. The mbox 1 uses ALL 500ma available on the usb bus. Thats what sucks. USB is unreliable and crap and so is its bus power. I have an Mbox 1, I know how touchy they are.

How in the world do you seriously expect to do 96k, even remotely decent sounding 96k at that price ? And you guys moan about it ... puleeezzzz .... gimme a break here.

but did you know........... and Im dead serious here..... that the converter chips in the Mbox 1 are EXACTLY the same as the converter chips as the 002? I've opened mine, I've seen 'em. The mbox 1 was 96k capable from the start - but USB can't do 96k reliably - it can barely do 48k reliably. Digi make crippleware. Is that a good enough break for you???

besides I dont recall anyone asking for 96k "at this price" but its been done by many companies before this.

Id pay $100US more for 96k, firewire and an external DC jack option.

the m-audio stuff is garbage even compared to the mbox 1.

I was hanging out for this - major dud. Digi are out for me.

[RoundBadge]

USB
48K
Boatanchor...period
they blew it.

[Sobe]

It is only $500 what did you expect
As many have commented, the Mbox 2 is primarily designed to provide greater value and quality to new users, rather than as an upgrade to existing Mbox 1 owners. It is a “replacement” in our product-line in that respect, and we weren’t expecting it to take over from the needs of buyers of our FireWire-based products like 002 and 002Rack. As more and more MIDI musicians choose Pro Tools, we were keen to ensure that they wouldn’t have to buy a separate MIDI interface.

Nevertheless, why not make it FireWire? This was driven by our desire to make it work as a portable peripheral with the widest possible range of laptop and desktop PC and Macintosh machines. As many of you know, FireWire is much less common on PC’s, and on PC laptops the standard which has evolved is to use 4-pin FireWire connections, which don’t provide power. This means you would have to use a line-lump/wall-wart adapter to power the unit from an AC socket – a bit of a drag for a portable device!

On the USB1.1 vs. 2.0 issue, many older machines are USB1.1 only, and we didn’t want to make an inexpensive peripheral, but have users feel like they had to buy a new machine just to work with it. While it’s true that USB2.0 is faster than 1.1 (480Mbps vs. 12Mbps), it’s latency is actually worse in most cases, and for the requirements of a 2-channel device 1.1 is just fine. In fact we even managed to improve the simultaneous channel-count over USB1.1, and improve the latency compared to the Mbox 1, which was already one of the best in it’s class. USB2.0 is really not capable of streaming audio efficiently yet (hence the lack of USB2.0 devices in the audio space), and it would have increased the cost considerably, as would FireWire.

So, does this mean that it’s hamstrung by an archaic technology foundation? Actually, not at all: it still represents a considerable leap forward in design terms. All USB-powered peripherals struggle against a performance limitation imposed by the low-quality nature of the 5 volts supplied over the USB cable from the computer. This is where some of the most demanding design effort went on Mbox 2: by completely re-designing the mic pre circuits and matching them carefully with the power control circuits within the Mbox 2, this unit now delivers 5dB better signal-to-noise performance than it’s predecessor (106dB!) and 10dB better THD+N performance (0.0008% vs. 0.003% previously.) All through the design phase, we’ve been taking a hard look at our competitors’ performance, and while we’re not 100% certain that we have absolutely the best USB peripheral specification anywhere ever, we were unable to find one that can match the Mbox 2 in bus-powered mode. These numbers are world-class even for AC-powered pro-audio devices.

Finally, I think someone commented on the handle, and how that might make it hard to store in your laptop case. It’s not apparent from a quick glance at the product page, but in fact Mbox 2 comes with two interchangeable face-plates in the box. One is the pictured handle which, apart from the obvious carrying benefits, can also tilt the unit up towards you if it sits on a desk, or allow it to be stood on it’s end to conserve desktop space. The other piece fits very flush to the body, making a more slim-line unit which can slide into your laptop case, and provides a very slight up-tilt when you lay it down on a desk. You can swap them in seconds with a single release screw.

Also The compromises with a 96k USB 1.1 device are a little ugly: 1.1 can't support sending 2 channels of 96kHz audio in both directions at once (there isn't enough bandwidth.) This would have made it possible to record or playback but not both at the same time. Some Mbox users are (like yourself) also owners of a TDM system, but most Mbox users use only the Mbox, and we felt it was more important to give that type of user the simultaneous I/O and MIDI while keeping the price the same, particularly since we already provide other 96kHz alternatives (002, 002 Rack, as well as M-Audio devices working with Pro Tools M-Powered.)

[Alexi]

hey, i bought my firepod for 500$..................it's a lot of money

[Duardo]

Nevertheless, why not make it FireWire? This was driven by our desire to make it work as a portable peripheral with the widest possible range of laptop and desktop PC and Macintosh machines. As many of you know, FireWire is much less common on PC’s, and on PC laptops the standard which has evolved is to use 4-pin FireWire connections, which don’t provide power. This means you would have to use a line-lump/wall-wart adapter to power the unit from an AC socket – a bit of a drag for a portable device!

I can understand that, except I think that most people who are doing mobile laptop recording will be plugging into a power source anyhow. Your laptop batteries won't last long...especially if you're using something like the M Box...and you're doing serious recording you're recording to an external Firewire drive anyhow, right? That would need power as well.

Your reasons for doing it the way you did make sense, and I'll certainly reserve judgment until these hit the streets and word gets out on how they sound and how much better the latency is...but I'm still surprised that when the demand for a 96 kHz-capable device is so obvious (which would necessitate Firewire as well, which is another thing people are asking for) you didn't do it if for no other reason than marketing.

-Duardo

[Jorg]

Originally Posted by Sobe

As many have commented, the Mbox 2 is primarily designed to provide greater value and quality to new users, rather than as an upgrade to existing Mbox 1 owners. It is a “replacement” in our product-line in that respect, and we weren’t expecting it to take over from the needs of buyers of our FireWire-based products like 002 and 002Rack. As more and more MIDI musicians choose Pro Tools, we were keen to ensure that they wouldn’t have to buy a separate MIDI interface.

Nevertheless, why not make it FireWire? This was driven by our desire to make it work as a portable peripheral with the widest possible range of laptop and desktop PC and Macintosh machines. As many of you know, FireWire is much less common on PC’s, and on PC laptops the standard which has evolved is to use 4-pin FireWire connections, which don’t provide power. This means you would have to use a line-lump/wall-wart adapter to power the unit from an AC socket – a bit of a drag for a portable device!

On the USB1.1 vs. 2.0 issue, many older machines are USB1.1 only, and we didn’t want to make an inexpensive peripheral, but have users feel like they had to buy a new machine just to work with it. While it’s true that USB2.0 is faster than 1.1 (480Mbps vs. 12Mbps), it’s latency is actually worse in most cases, and for the requirements of a 2-channel device 1.1 is just fine. In fact we even managed to improve the simultaneous channel-count over USB1.1, and improve the latency compared to the Mbox 1, which was already one of the best in it’s class. USB2.0 is really not capable of streaming audio efficiently yet (hence the lack of USB2.0 devices in the audio space), and it would have increased the cost considerably, as would FireWire.

So, does this mean that it’s hamstrung by an archaic technology foundation? Actually, not at all: it still represents a considerable leap forward in design terms. All USB-powered peripherals struggle against a performance limitation imposed by the low-quality nature of the 5 volts supplied over the USB cable from the computer. This is where some of the most demanding design effort went on Mbox 2: by completely re-designing the mic pre circuits and matching them carefully with the power control circuits within the Mbox 2, this unit now delivers 5dB better signal-to-noise performance than it’s predecessor (106dB!) and 10dB better THD+N performance (0.0008% vs. 0.003% previously.) All through the design phase, we’ve been taking a hard look at our competitors’ performance, and while we’re not 100% certain that we have absolutely the best USB peripheral specification anywhere ever, we were unable to find one that can match the Mbox 2 in bus-powered mode. These numbers are world-class even for AC-powered pro-audio devices.

Finally, I think someone commented on the handle, and how that might make it hard to store in your laptop case. It’s not apparent from a quick glance at the product page, but in fact Mbox 2 comes with two interchangeable face-plates in the box. One is the pictured handle which, apart from the obvious carrying benefits, can also tilt the unit up towards you if it sits on a desk, or allow it to be stood on it’s end to conserve desktop space. The other piece fits very flush to the body, making a more slim-line unit which can slide into your laptop case, and provides a very slight up-tilt when you lay it down on a desk. You can swap them in seconds with a single release screw.

Also The compromises with a 96k USB 1.1 device are a little ugly: 1.1 can't support sending 2 channels of 96kHz audio in both directions at once (there isn't enough bandwidth.) This would have made it possible to record or playback but not both at the same time. Some Mbox users are (like yourself) also owners of a TDM system, but most Mbox users use only the Mbox, and we felt it was more important to give that type of user the simultaneous I/O and MIDI while keeping the price the same, particularly since we already provide other 96kHz alternatives (002, 002 Rack, as well as M-Audio devices working with Pro Tools M-Powered.)

I think u just said that before!
I still won't buy one.

Digidesign is done for me!!!

[MBOX2]

[max cooper]

In response to an above post; I think there are guys who would like to do editing, not mixing, but editing while on the move. I personally don't need to have my Rosetta with me to edit stuff. And I mean the tedious stuff like scooping all the bleed out of a kick drum track multiplied by ten songs, which is a lot of editing time (and that's just the kick drum track.)

Anyhow, I think they'll sell lots of these. I made my living as a photographer for almost a decade, and I used to ask the Kodak rep why they were constantly discontinuing pro film stocks. He would (honestly) reply that pro sales were such a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket that they would hardly result in any kind of leverage when it came to decision making time. I think the same is true here. Many will choose Digi, and some won't. I don't think they'll sweat it too much.

[andre tchmil]

Never thought about it earlier, But since the Mbox is limited to 48khz, is it possible to import a 96Khz TDM session and do some editing on the Mbox 2 ?