Pro tools 8 steals logic features

[mh_bj]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

it definitely seems like a typo....

On their main Symphony page they write this:

Yeah -- I saw that. The page I am referring to is the "performance" page: Apogee Electronics: Products: The Symphony System: Minimum Latency, Maximum Performance
on that page under the "Unprecedented Plug-in Power" section about halfway down they make the 1.6ms claim @ 44.1k. I tend to think that it is a typo.

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Please elaborate....(at which sample rate)?

If your total roundtrip is 0.9 ms higher than Apogees @ 44.1, and Apogee has a latency of 3.36, does this mean that the MH roundtrip is 4.26?? Which MH system is that? Or did you mean 0.9 ms more than 1.6?

The 0.9 ms number is for 96k.

So here are the numbers (these were all in my earlier post)

MIO DSP Symphony MIO Software Monitoring
@44.1k 1.5ms 3.36ms* 4.5ms
@96k 0.7ms 1.6ms 2.6ms

(* - the 44.1k number is the one you quote from the SOS article as Apogee doesn't provide that spec).

With DSP processing, MH is < 2ms at all sample rates, and less than 1 ms @ 96k. I guess that if that's not good enough, then it is time to pull out an analog board for monitoring, or use an external ultra low latency A/D/A, as the latency is dominated by the converters. I suppose with the very low latency converter chips available today, you could get the delay down to about 0.166ms (with processing), and that is probably about the floor.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by mh_bj

Yeah -- I saw that. The page I am referring to is the "performance" page: Apogee Electronics: Products: The Symphony System: Minimum Latency, Maximum Performance
on that page under the "Unprecedented Plug-in Power" section about halfway down they make the 1.6ms claim @ 44.1k. I tend to think that it is a typo.

Not really a typo, because the asterisks suggest that these are the session data for the session where number of plugins are counted, and not latency values (confusing, I know).

So, these numbers are with (non-CPU based) effects, right? What about direct monitoring without effects - would the latency be even lower then? (Not that 1.5 ms @ 44.1 isn't good enough...).

you have to instanitate it in our environment

What does this actually mean? Are you losing anything when you instantiate those effects? Can they be used on the track after recording as well, or are they just for monitoring? How much does this system cost?

[mh_bj]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Not really a typo, because the asterisks suggest that these are the session data for the session where number of plugins are counted, and not latency values (confusing, I know).

My point being that if the spec is for the card running at 44.1k, then they should omit the 96k latency number or use the 44.1k latency number as what is written there is more than confusing -- it is misleading. So I choose to believe that it is a typo...

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

So, these numbers are with (non-CPU based) effects, right? What about direct monitoring without effects - would the latency be even lower then? (Not that 1.5 ms @ 44.1 isn't good enough...).

Yes -- the DSP numbers are by using DSP-based effects, but the important point is that they are not fixed effects -- they are fully instantiable. And, no - the latency is not increased by adding effects (unless the effect has inherent latency like a delay; things like EQ, limit, compressor, guitar processing, etc. add no latency). But the latency quoted is the latency through the mixer (and as I said is 99% A/D/A latency -- the processing latency is 1 sample and the transport latency is 2-3 samples).

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

What does this actually mean? Are you losing anything when you instantiate those effects? Can they be used on the track after recording as well, or are they just for monitoring? How much does this system cost?

It means that, unlike, say, the UAD card or the PowerCore where you insert the plugin in the host's mixer, the DSP plugins in our environment are inserted in the MIO Mixer. This is how we can avoid round-trips to the computer. We have an AU/VST/RTAS plugin that allows you to insert the control software for the hardware directly into your host's session and interact with our mixer and plugins from within the host (and all your settings are saved and recalled automatically with your session). So no -- you are not losing anything.

You can use them on tracks during mixing like you would use any outboard processor (via an I/O plug) or, as many of our customers do, you can do final summing in the MIO, and use the plugins in the MIO Mixer pre-sum. You can also, of course, use them for mix buss processing regardless of whether or not you sum in the MIO.

There are two products in the family:

The 2882 (which is 8in 10out analog/ 10 in-10 out digital -- all simultaneous, with 8 utility preamps and phantom on the analog inputs) - $1895 list

The ULN-2 (which is 2in 4 out analog /10in-10 out digital - all simultaneous, with 2 boutique preamps on the analog inputs). - $1695 list

You can use multiple units on each FireWire bus. They aggregate nicely. Our MIO Console software can record from multiple boxes at once (Largest recording in the field so far is 72 channels @ 96k with 9 boxes on a Dual G5. Largest laptop based recording is 48 channels @ 96k with 6 boxes on a Mac Book Pro). We have done larger recordings in the lab, but so far those are the largest customer systems I am aware of.

See the Metric Halo Website for more info.

[m0no]

Originally Posted by DielonYaMon

it cannot be done. They will figure something out one day.

buy an 8 core put in a apogy symphony card with outboard. ad16x or rossetta. blows pro tools away easely. less latency, less money, more power and cheaper plugs voor the same quality...

[Icecoldr]

Originally Posted by m0no

buy an 8 core put in a apogy symphony card with outboard. ad16x or rossetta. blows pro tools away easely. less latency, less money, more power and cheaper plugs voor the same quality...

Can A Protools HD user give me the main reason why they use the HD system ? could you still get a 200 plus track count mix done on a native system?

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by Icecoldr

Can A Protools HD user give me the main reason why they use the HD system ? could you still get a 200 plus track count mix done on a native system?

Have you ever used a PT HD system?

[Icecoldr]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Have you ever used a PT HD system?

No but I would love to work on a hd system but I live in Cincinnati and the sam ash store dont even stock it lol I have never seen a HD System run . That is why I have so many ? for all the Hd owners

[robmix]

Originally Posted by Icecoldr

Can A Protools HD user give me the main reason why they use the HD system ? could you still get a 200 plus track count mix done on a native system?

Because it sounds great !!!

Because it's never slowed me down, and allows me to do anything and everything I have ever needed as a producer and engineer.

It's never failed me (yes, it'll crash once in a blue moon, but never lost anything !!!!)

It's got a great upgrade policy. I've never had to throw anything away, there's always a path to the next level.

PT is a standard. In the last 14 years I've only ever received one file in another format (Cubase FWIW) from a client. Everything else has been in Pro Tools.

Because no matter how fast native gets, adding additional DSP will always win.

It operates the way I think, solo buttons are where they should be, routing is like a normal console, I don't have build anything, power up and it's ready to go.

only two different pages to look at :)

Never have to think about latency or deal with any strange cue mix things that bypass convertors

[Icecoldr]

Originally Posted by robmix

Because it sounds great !!!

Because it's never slowed me down, and allows me to do anything and everything I have ever needed as a producer and engineer.

It's never failed me (yes, it'll crash once in a blue moon, but never lost anything !!!!)

It's got a great upgrade policy. I've never had to throw anything away, there's always a path to the next level.

PT is a standard. In the last 14 years I've only ever received one file in another format (Cubase FWIW) from a client. Everything else has been in Pro Tools.

Because no matter how fast native gets, adding additional DSP will always win.

It operates the way I think, solo buttons are where they should be, routing is like a normal console, I don't have build anything, power up and it's ready to go.

only two different pages to look at :)

Never have to think about latency or deal with any strange cue mix things that bypass convertors

Lol wow thats in great detail your post sounds like why i use a mac over a pc thanks for your post

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Yes, but I always thought that the "zero latency" claim of PTHD was misleading,

Maybe you could point that out on Digidesign.com for me as I can't seem to find that anywhere

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by m0no

buy an 8 core put in a apogy symphony card with outboard. ad16x or rossetta. blows pro tools away easely. less latency, less money, more power and cheaper plugs voor the same quality...

Symphony PCIe system VS HD with a 192 or a Lynx is not that much different in price and HD cards give a lot more DSP and higher tracks counts. When You factor in the DSP the Symphony system costs more, More cost for plug-ins Plug-ins ?? WTF? are you talking about TDM plug-ins are dirt cheap on eBay.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

Maybe you could point that out on Digidesign.com for me as I can't seem to find that anywhere

I meant that it´s a claim that gets passed around here quite often. I don´t think it´s an official statement made by Digidesign either.

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by robmix

Because it sounds great !!!

Because it's never slowed me down, and allows me to do anything and everything I have ever needed as a producer and engineer.

It's never failed me (yes, it'll crash once in a blue moon, but never lost anything !!!!)

It's got a great upgrade policy. I've never had to throw anything away, there's always a path to the next level.

PT is a standard. In the last 14 years I've only ever received one file in another format (Cubase FWIW) from a client. Everything else has been in Pro Tools.

Because no matter how fast native gets, adding additional DSP will always win.

It operates the way I think, solo buttons are where they should be, routing is like a normal console, I don't have build anything, power up and it's ready to go.

only two different pages to look at :)

Never have to think about latency or deal with any strange cue mix things that bypass convertors

That about covers it!

[bigdog]

Originally Posted by Icecoldr

Can A Protools HD user give me the main reason why they use the HD system ? could you still get a 200 plus track count mix done on a native system?

I've never really done a shootout with HD vs LE. I have done a direct comparison between Dig Performer (running under DAE) and PTHD, and HD really sounded better in a not subtle way, to both me and my engineer. In this case, "better" (always a subjective term) means more detail, better imaging, richer, deeper, not cloudy.

There is much discussion about specs of native systems etc (which are indeed impressive) but not much about actual sound quality, at least that I've seen. My experience has been that the best way to really find out the answer is find a way to try it yourself. I know that may be a hassle but chances are the answers will be very apparent.

[Fredrik]

If you ran DP under DAE all summing took place on the core card no?



Whats strange to me about this argument generaly is that it would recuire that a calculation made on an Intel gives a different result than a decade old 200 mhz Motorola, weird. Might be because it´s vintage perhaps.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Might be because it´s vintage perhaps.

That must be it. Vintage chips sound better! :) Maybe someone could make a Vintage Chip Emulator plug-in for native systems?

Let's hope this thread doesn't turn into one of those threads where people start to compare the lowest available second-hand PT prices with new Apogee/Apple list prices to prove something about price difference.... ;-)

Regarding formats, standards and future directions... look here:
What Plugin Format You Using? - let's get the numbers
The ultimate Logic / native / Pro Tools poll :-)

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Let's hope this thread doesn't turn into one of those threads where people start to the lowest available second-hand PT prices with new Apogee/Apple list prices to prove something about price difference.... ;-)

Too late, it already has.........

[25ghosts]

Originally Posted by Icecoldr

Is It Me OR DO Any ONE other than me fill like DIGI sat in a room and said hey for por tools 8 lets just take features from logic pro 8 I may be wrong but if you dont use logic check out there Quick Swipe comping video Apple - Logic Studio - Logic Pro 8

Everybody lends and steals. It has been like that even before computers dawned upon us. If you were to get your facts straight and open your eyes just a little more then if you look at Logic 8 it has borrowed MANY features from PT.

Quit acting as if you wrote and produced Logic thus feeling like someone stole your personal property. Starting a thread like this when you have the possibility of making music is simply ridiculous unless you aint very good at it.

[UnMix Studio]

This is thread is bogy. PT didn't steal Logics feature. Come on. They claim it was in making for 3 years. True they could've copy the color, but it's apparent they tried to match the ICON's color. U can bet the ICOON color or anything about it didn't come from Logic.That seamless layouts are NOT unique to Logic either. Nuendo had it before Logic, so how come no one didn't cry foul then?

I use Logic and PT

[stag]

Originally Posted by Icecoldr

Is It Me OR DO Any ONE other than me fill like DIGI sat in a room and said hey for por tools 8 lets just take features from logic pro 8 I may be wrong but if you dont use logic check out there Quick Swipe comping video Apple - Logic Studio - Logic Pro 8

It seems Logic stole that feature from SX2.

[bigdog]

[quote=Fredrik;3565051]If you ran DP under DAE all summing took place on the core card no?

Yes I guess so. I'm not an engineer - totally a composer/producer. Most of this stuff is over my head. But yes I guess that's true. We did all the mixing in DP using DAE, PT hardware etc. Then went to PT to build the session for the dub stage. We just thought it was interesting that those same sound bites sounded better played back in PT

This was all on G5s not Intel machines

[Icecoldr]

Originally Posted by 25ghosts

Everybody lends and steals. It has been like that even before computers dawned upon us. If you were to get your facts straight and open your eyes just a little more then if you look at Logic 8 it has borrowed MANY features from PT.

Quit acting as if you wrote and produced Logic thus feeling like someone stole your personal property. Starting a thread like this when you have the possibility of making music is simply ridiculous unless you aint very good at it.

First off i dont give a @#$% im not getting paid by digi or apple . This was just a statement!!!! If 50 cent makes a song and call it lick on my blowpop some one would say
come on 50 cent make your own songs. what i'm trying to say is pro tools HD is the standard for pro audio hands down thats why( I) fill they should be way ahead of the pack. PS.... IF you ever want to post tracks to see who can really make music then lets go ((((( unless you aint very good at it )))))) sorry guys for that but he pushed me lol

[robmix]

huh ?

[Wally]

pretty soon i see almost everyone going Sonar 8 Nuendo Logic or Samplitude lol.