SmartAV Tango DAW Controller

[HHaynes]

Originally Posted by Nowak

Geez, I can't wait to check out the Tango.

Well - if your location listing is right, you're in Sydney, which would put you in "SmartAV Central". :)

Originally Posted by Nowak

I need to ditch the ProControl before I can dive in..

You'd need to ditch Pro Tools too - unless you're willing to put up with plain-jane HUI emulation. Digi is all about selling their hardware, so they don't publish an API/SDK that goes "deep" into the inner working of the app like Steinberg, Emapple, Cakewalk and many of the other DAW software vendors.

Originally Posted by Nowak

How do the controls feel? do they feel they're actually doing anything? alot of the controllers feel like toys because the controls don't feel like they're actually "connected" to anything, I'd love to feel a little tension in the faders rather than them just scraping up and down like alot of the controllers out there.

I know what you mean. One of the things I really liked about my TASCAM FW-1884 was the smooth, resistive feel of the faders, something that I consider to be critical to the real value of a controller. The FW's encoders and knobs were a bit light to the touch, though. It's one of the main reasons I was given pause when I demo'd the Euphonix MC Mix, the faders and knobs of their "Artist" series didn't give me a tremendous amount of confidence as to their long-term durability.

The Tango has great-feeling faders - very much in the mold of high end large format consoles. When the SmartAV rep in the US told me over the phone that it's as solid as anything SSL ever built (he rep'd for them for 20 years or so) I was a bit dubious - but two minutes after I got the console out of the box, I was a believer. The sliders don't have one bit of "play" - no unnecessary shift from side to side or up and down. Likewise there's no stiffness, drag, or any other kind of variability in the fader throw - just smooth travel end to end (and consistency from fader to fader). The best was I could describe it would be "silky" or maybe "oily" - very, very nice.

The encoders are similarly appointed. Aside from having resistance in that "goldilocks zone" (not too light, not too stiff - just right) the push-button detents have an authoritative "click" that has enough back pressure to make sure you don't activate it by accident, and gives you solid feedback that you've actuated the button portion of the control. The push buttons across the surface are similarly consistent, a tiny bit lighter to the touch than the rotary encoders, but still an authoritative "click". At the outset I didn't quite *get* the touch points for solo and "inject" (the latter is used to map a DAW mixer channel to one of the physical controller channels, among many other functions), but it didn't take long to get a grasp of the ergonomics behind that layout. It's kind of mind-blowing how quickly and easily you can move through a project - and the feel of the controls is so immediate that it feels like a natural extension to the DAW application.

As you can see - I can go on and on about this console. But I've got to get on with the morning routine (and the rest of the day). As I dig into the Tango, I become more and more enthusiastic about it - which hasn't happened in a long time.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by HHaynes

I'm excited about not only mapping all of the "stock" Nuendo commands, but also figuring out the right places to use some KCs/macros and even some project logical editor presets. I may also work in some combinations of functions that can use the jog wheel -

I've already programmed my zooms in Logic to function with the jog wheel.

I love the new update as well!

[Nowak]

Hi HH, thanks for the reply.

Yep I'm in Sydney, In fact about 20 minutes from SmartAV HQ, I'll try to get down there in the next 2 weeks I think, perving at the website is getting the better of me.

I have already ditched ProTools for a lot of my mixing duties, they're done in Logic now however, I still track in ProTools (I still don't trust native systems when it comes to critical tracking sessions) but then I fly stuff to Logic for mixing so the Tango would suit me perfectly.

I tried the euphonix MC stuff, it started out OK then ended up sending me psycho, the unit was out of life 3 weeks later.

I can't wait to check out the Tango, your feedback about the controls gives me confidence in it.

Stef

[Nowak]

Do the EQ and Compressor graphs work with all EQ and Compressor plug ins?

Stef

[HHaynes]

Originally Posted by Nowak

Do the EQ and Compressor graphs work with all EQ and Compressor plug ins?

Not at this point - at least as far as I know. Although it *is* nice to have that immediate level of access/visual feedback, it's not a deal-breaker. When I'm using Voxengo Voxformer I don't even think about the UI on the touch screen. I just use the plugin controls to launch the UI of the plug to the main DAW screen and control its parameters through the 16 rotary encoders on the right hand side of the Tango. The UI of the plugin on the main monitor "chases" the position of the corresponding encoder on the Tango - so it's like having hardware control of the plugin in it's native UI. The virtual controls move as I move the physical controls - which gives a pretty direct feel to the plugin parameters. Once I'm done, I hit the "Window" button on the touch screen and the plugin UI disappears again - easy.

I'm sure they're working on some solution to update the compressor UI to corespond to settings created by other plugins, but I'm not one of the customers that's complaining about it since I do more scoring and sound design/mixing than music-related track work, so it's not a top-tier feature to me. Likewise, when I do pull up an EQ or compressor to set on a track, I'm usually pretty happy with the factory plugins. I know - call me crazy.

[narco]

Originally Posted by HHaynes

Not at this point - at least as far as I know. Although it *is* nice to have that immediate level of access/visual feedback, it's not a deal-breaker. When I'm using Voxengo Voxformer I don't even think about the UI on the touch screen. I just use the plugin controls to launch the UI of the plug to the main DAW screen and control its parameters through the 16 rotary encoders on the right hand side of the Tango. The UI of the plugin on the main monitor "chases" the position of the corresponding encoder on the Tango - so it's like having hardware control of the plugin in it's native UI. The virtual controls move as I move the physical controls - which gives a pretty direct feel to the plugin parameters. Once I'm done, I hit the "Window" button on the touch screen and the plugin UI disappears again - easy.

I'm hoping for this feature, if they mplement it I'm 99% sure I will be buying one, plus expander

its way more important to me to have a representation on each channel strip when the plugin window isn't actually open, than to have it on on screen when actually eq-ing

narco

[HHaynes]

Originally Posted by narco

its way more important to me to have a representation on each channel strip when the plugin window isn't actually open, than to have it on on screen when actually eq-ing

That's why I went ahead and jumped at the Tango immediately. I'm happy enough to use the new EQ in Nuendo, and the stock compressor seems to suite me fine for track-level work (particularly with the new side chain input they implemented in VST3).

I still use the Voxformer on the input channel when recording, but it's pretty much a set-and-forget affair.

That's not to say it's not important, just that the third party integration wasn't a deciding factor for me. The way they've implemented it "out of the box" is more than enough for my workflow.

[Nowak]

Received my Tango a couple of days ago, this thing is sweet!

It's built like a console and feels like one. This isn't just a dumb terminal connected to the computer, this puppy has brains and I love it, 12 channel expanders will be shipping in the next week or 2.

If you're looking for a good controller, check this out guys, nothing beats it.

[jamwerks]

I'd love to see a picture of the 12 channel expander.

[TRW]

Can you re-organise the TFT layout so it doesn't show Nuendo/Cubase stock EQ and dyn?

Strip it out and make it focus on inserts and sends. I remember hearing about a graphic SDK?

Cheers T

[Nowak]

Originally Posted by TRW

Can you re-organise the TFT layout so it doesn't show Nuendo/Cubase stock EQ and dyn?

Strip it out and make it focus on inserts and sends. I remember hearing about a graphic SDK?

Cheers T

Not to the best of my knowledge however, this product is in continual development so who knows what will be released in the future.

In Logic, the EQ graph shows the stock Logic EQ with the Linear Phase EQ coming in a future rev, the Dyn graph shows the Logic Compressor.

Other plug ins map to the 16 encoders to the right, they are a click/stop encoder and feel terrific (unlike the safe crackers that were on the 1st rev ProControl) at the bottom of that section is 1 motorised pot and another endless encoder for fine adjustment.

My only issue is Waves SSL plug ins, they work on the encoders but the read out values are totally whacked.

Stef

[TRW]

OK thanks.

This isn't what I'd hoped it would be at the moment, but I'l keep my eye on it.

-T

[Nowak]

Pic with the expansion bay I found on the net, I hope the company doesn't mind me posting this.

Stefan

[jamwerks]

Looks like what a lot of us have been dreaming for! Is there a price out yet on the expander?

[Nowak]

Prices are on their website.......

Smart AV - TANGO - Smart Console

Stefan

[maddog]

I saw this one at summer namm when I was there in nashville. I had a demo everything was very intuitive and I love the touch screen on it too. really cool how you can draw eq curves with your finger etc. nice for surround work. although I only got half a demo because it kept crashing but I was told it was a prototype version and bugs were still being worked out. all in all very good solution for nuendo guys I think and at a price of 7000 relitively affordable as well.

[Nowak]

Been operating it for almost a week now and I'm falling more in love.

[trancekid]

when i had a demo the whole thing was very buggy with logic, i was also told it's a beta .

i found out that it looks great on first view , but going deeper it's still limited like most other controllers too.

to me it was quite irritating that you can't change the order of the eq and compressor view. if you have the eq in the first plug-in slot and the compressor in the 2nd the tango shows it the other way round. if you don't use the host's eq & compressor but some 3rd party stuff the graph on the tango shows just nothing. (talking about the graphical display)

i'd suggest that most people use 3rd party plug-ins. yes, you can control these with the 16 encoders but the parameters are still displayed over several pages like with the euphonics or the mackies, etc. - no customization possible.

coming from the mackies, now having the euphonix i had some difficulties in figuring out which is the current active channel, but i guess one will be used to this quite fast.

i'm still looking for something better than the euphonix but so far i have to say that for me the tango is not worth spending the money as it won't take me much further.

i guess that if you really want something nice you have to spend much more money.

just my 2ct...

---

[HHaynes]

Originally Posted by trancekid

no customization possible

...yet...



SmartAV has a goal of a fully customizable UI (and plans to publish their own SDK), and is looking at ways to support third party plugins with more flexibility. In the short time that I've had a unit in service, I've found more and more things to like about it - including some very useful firmware updates - and the unit has been really solid. As I said before, you'd be yourself short if you think that the SmartAV Tango you see *today* is as advanced as it will get. Just looking at the radical improvements they've made in the Edit Panels is enough to sell most folks on the device. With the rework they're looking to make on the MonARC it's going to take the Tango to a whole new level.

[Nowak]

Showing EQ maps of 3rd party plug ins isn't a quick over the night development I'm sure but I would love to think that it will be possible in the future.

Any plug in with 1000 parameters is going to spread over a couple of pages of course, Joe at SAV said that the encoders will be customizable in a future rev. This console is still in its infancy but already very powerful. It runs great with Logic.

Stefan

[jjdpro]

Where is the Master Fader?.. I'm seeing more and more DAW controllers without a MAster Fader.. That's a very important feature.

With the Digidesign Controllers, you have to get an ICon to get aController with a Master Fader.
I don;t like so-0called prgramable master fader(s). I wasnt one like a real console..

Major disapointment not just forn SamrtAv, but most DW controllers..

Originally Posted by Nowak

Showing EQ maps of 3rd party plug ins isn't a quick over the night development I'm sure but I would love to think that it will be possible in the future.

Any plug in with 1000 parameters is going to spread over a couple of pages of course, Joe at SAV said that the encoders will be customizable in a future rev. This console is still in its infancy but already very powerful. It runs great with Logic.

Stefan

[Nowak]

Each fader has a "hold" button which will lock the fader in the current "slot", so regardless of what channels are showing that fader remains.

Stef

And BTW, the ICON doesn't have a master fader.........that is a focus strip, it just looks like a master fader.

[HHaynes]

Originally Posted by jjdpro

Where is the Master Fader?.. I'm seeing more and more DAW controllers without a MAster Fader.. That's a very important feature.

FWIW - I think the idea of a dedicated master fader is a waste of space. However, there's nothing that prevents you from assigning it to one of the channel strips on the Tango. Just like the mixer section in Nuendo - it's the last fader in line. All you have to do to assign it to a physical fader (and keep it there) is to "inject" it and the activate the "Hold" button at the bottom of that strip. You can also freely assign it to any channel groups that you create. I have one set that includes all of my Group Channel tracks and the Master Out track. The beauty of this is that it's immediately accessible without being hard-coded on your board.

[jamwerks]

The Tango looks very interesting. However for my usage, and I imagine a fair amout of other users, there is maybe too much touch screen space. For thoses of use who do mostly composing and arranging, we don't want to see all the time what all the eq's and comps are doing.

We have limited realestate on our desktops, and we are all getting bigger and bigger computer screens. I'll be interested to hear from folks with a 16 or 24 channel configuration, how they like having all that screen space in front of them. The high rising expanders might also block the sound monitors!?

The ability to dispose of a computer keyboard right on the main touch screen must be fantastic. Do you find that having that, you don't need a dedicated keyboard?

I currently have 24 channels of Mackie Control Pro (on Logic). I've tried the Euphonix Artist thing which was nice, but maybe a little flimsy. I'm pretty sure that I'd be satisfied with having only half the touch screen space on the central unit (Tango), and then only a few inches up (slanted) on the expanders (non touch) for led and other minimal info.

[Nowak]

The console doesn't slant that much, it's nowhere near the monitor level here.

The screens aren't too bright so they're not radiating me at all, I don't think i'll be glowing in the dark as a result of using them, lets hope not anyway! The GUI is easy on the eye and not too much.

I'll be receiving the 12 channel expander sometime this week. That will make the console about 4.5 feet wide.

Stefan

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by Nowak

I'll be receiving the 12 channel expander sometime this week. That will make the console about 4.5 feet wide.

What DAW are you using? Are you a recording studio, composer, sound designer? What did you have before the Tango? Workflow?

In short (it's a little late for that!) I'd be interested to hear some details about the integration between the controler and what you do.

[Nowak]

I'm a composer mostly, I have a sizable studio here at home behind the house.

The Tango is being used with Logic, and ProTools once they have code. I do live tracking to ProTools then fly over to logic for mixing.

HUI I know is limited with ProTools however it will be enough for what I want.

Previously I had a Digi ProControl which was a great desk however the Tango suits me better now with my workflow.

I have had alot of controllers, HUI, Motormix, Euphonix, ProControl......the Tango is by far the most intuitive and best laid out controller I've used, I think the SmartAV guys have done a great job here. Mixing is so much fun in Logic now, I love it.

Stefan

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by trancekid

i'm still looking for something better than the euphonix but so far i have to say that for me the tango is not worth spending the money as it won't take me much further.

You won't know that if you haven't really worked with it... some of its features are really intuitive. The MonArc is a great way of selecting channels, putting tracks in certain automation modes, mutting or soloeing and its effect is that I don't really miss having more faders, though offcourse that is expandable. Also you can make sets of custom fader selections very quickly.

Like HHaynes already pointed out, the features of the console are still in development. And since the day I got it, a whole lot has been changed already. (for example: the whole edit panel can now be user defined, it's some work, but once you've set it up it's great).

Also you should not forget that some of the limitations that the console has, have nothing to do with Smart AV. It's because the software it works with does not allow this kind of integration yet. Once the controller integration of the software evolves, which I am sure will happen in the future, the console will also be updated.

[dlmorley]

Looks fabulous to me. If I were ITB, I´d be on it like a rash.

[Nowak]

Got the 12 channel unit in today, man this thing rocks seriously.