the sweetest converters i've ever heard... and the tracks to prove it

[dave-G]

I think this box looks interesting, as a "mixdown deck" for the mix engineer. As a "mastering" ADC, I dunno. Big-dollar 2-channel ADCs (if not ADCs in general) seem to be designed with fidelity/transparency as the primary goal, and I agree with the rationale of preferring that. However, for the mix engineer to have something driveable to print the final mix into, with some euphonic 'sound' to it, could be a very nice niche to fill.

-dave

[norman_nomad]

Oxiclean works. And it tastes delicious.

[emeraldcityeg]

great review, greg -- your affiliations with wave aside, you did a thorough job here.

to me the kick and toms in the burl mix sound like the real, analog deal. while the apogee sounds good, it sounds more 'digital' to my ears.

this device could make me not miss tape in my next session.

[anarchomojo]

Originally Posted by u b k

it has a stepped, post-input attenuator, the idea being that you can hit the input trafo's as hard as you want (and they sound good when spanked), and dial back the attenuator to restore the digital headroom that your system is calibrated for.

so how hard did you hit the transformers? I would like to hear the cleaner side of the burl as apposed to slamming the transformers

I think people need to realize there is a flexibility here

I personally like the color, i never hear people bitching about how tape colors,if it sounds good it is good! but to all those who want sterile clean transparent digital mixes go for it, have fun.

[GungaDin]

nice work! and a very cool way to try out a new piece.

[Zep Dude]

Originally Posted by razorz

As already stated. An AD/DA converter should not color the sound. There are 3000 other devices and plugins that will do that for you. I'd like to be able to choose which one I want to use.

I agree with this if only it were possible. Unfortunately there is not a multi channel converter alive that doesn't color the sound in some way so it's really a matter of choosing your poison. What some people think is "neutral" can lean a little to the thin or sterile side so this is itself a compromise. Hey, whatever works, of course. Having been through many converters over the years I've given up on neutral for now and just go with what sounds musical -what makes things work in the mix and puts smiles on the clients faces. In the past I would get a sound I loved in the analog world and then cringe a bit with the knowledge I had to lose some of that when it hit the AD. With my JCF transformer based converters I really don't worry about that anymore.

[Bierce85]

I just had a lot of fun mixing this as a first logic mix since switching from PTLE. All the tracks sound fantastic! The whole thing is very organic and classy. Really cool song, too. You guys should have a band.

Thanks for taking the time to make such a great post, UBK!

[deuc647]

whats the price?

[RKrizman]

What do you mean when you say the mixes went throught the Apogee or the Burl? Did you mix out through a summing box? Run the final ITB mix through a stage of conversion?

-R

[drBill]

I just listened to the MP3's of the rough mixes. For some reason I couldn't download the AIFF's to drop into PT to quick switch between them in sync for comparison purposes. I'm guessing the MP3's are probably not doing it real justice. Both the Apogee and the Burl sound good. I prefered the Burl rough mix, but not by a huge margin. I'd like to know a little more about the mic's, pre's, signal chain before passing real judgement. IMO, this same type of coloration can be achieved by other means, but that said, there's nothing like being there and making the decision yourself. Obviously you are stoked about the converters and I wasn't there so....any more info you can lend on the session would be helpful. If the price was reasonable, I'd probably go for a pair. If they are pricey, I think I can achieve the same thing in other ways. Nice song and recording btw. Thanks for doing it.

bp

[BrianT]

Originally Posted by razorz

As already stated. An AD/DA converter should not color the sound.

Very narrow-minded viewpoint, IMO.

I started making records in 1980. On 2" tape.

Every single 2" tape machine imparted it's own particular "flavor" to the recording process. All sounded different, some more than others. Beefy vs transparent, etc. You picked your machine based on a combination of it's features along with what you preferred, in terms of tone.

So here we are, nearly all of us trying to get our digital recording to sound more like tape, and there is the pronouncement that all AD/DA converters must sound like nothing!

I totally, completely disagree. Personally, I want AD converters that give me a leg up on warming up digital recordings. God knows they generally need it. If you want dry, neutral (IMO = antiseptic) AD converters, fine. But don't think everybody agrees about that, as some sort of "law". Not even close, over here.

I want to have a listen to the Burls. Precisely because they are not neutral.

[yoink]

I would love to try them. Since I have little use for a 2 channel A/D on it's own however, I hope that the 8 channel A/D will follow shortly.

I too would like to know what kind of ballpark figures we're looking at in terms of price.

Thanks for all the work UBK!

[allencollins]

you guys sound like Vander Graff Generator
sounds good.


You got a mix with the UA?

[GilWave]

Originally Posted by razorz

As already stated. An AD/DA converter should not color the sound.

Says who? Like anything else in modern recording, it's up to the artist or engineer. Burl's belief is that no A to D is truly 100% transparent, so if an AD is going to effect your signal anyway, why not a nice round analog-like tonality?

If you feel AD/DA's shouldn't color sound, by all means buy one that you feel does not.

There are 3000 other devices and plugins that will do that for you. I'd like to be able to choose which one I want to use.

And you can.

Originally Posted by pigpen

Price point?

Around $3000.

Originally Posted by Binary Bob

UBK is the Billy Mays of Gearslutz.

That's really not fair to UBK. You obviously don't know him.

Originally Posted by melodic_disaster

ubk are you and gil the new "tony belmonts" of gs? it just seemed like a magazine plug outta nowhere.

UBK and I are not dealers. Tony Belmont is a retailer. I am the distributor for Burl Audio, and am going through the process of setting up retail dealers (and international distributors) to sell the product.

Until they are in place, I need to demonstrate the effectiveness of the product and make apparent its attributes compared to other products on the market. I wanted to do so in an interesting and compelling manner, one that would be consistent with gearslutz members stated desires in the past to hear products in the environment they would be used in, with A-to-B comparisons.

I asked UBK to help me figure out a way to showcase the Burl B2 Bomber in an in-studio example that would reveal its unique aspects and strengths. He thought it over for awhile, and came up with this whole concept. He ran it by me, I approved it and he executed it in his inimitable style

If that offends your prudential sensibilities, I apologize - I would hope enough folks find UBKs tracks interesting and worthwhile sufficient to keep the thread alive.

-gil

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by melodic_disaster

ubk are you and gil the new "tony belmonts" of gs?

I'm a dealer... and I make it painfully obvious in my signature for transparency.

Don't pick on me.... I have nothing to do with this thread.

[trustyjim]

Can you explain more about your hardware chain?

I assume all the tracks were recorded in the beginnig using Burl A/D converters. But I don't understand your process after that.


The tracks labelled as Apogee converters were:

A) Sent out as individual tracks through Burl D/A converters to an analog summing device then back into a stereo set of Apogee A/D's?
B) Sent out as individual tracks through Apogee D/A converters to an analog summing device then back into a stereo set of Burl A/D's?
C) Sent out as a stereo mix through Burl D/A converters then back to a stereo set of Apogee A/D's?
D) Sent out as a stereo mix through Apogee D/A converters then back to a stereo set of Burl A/D's?

Just trying to understand where each converter was leaving it's mark.

I really like the Burl mix that you spent more time on. It definitely has a vibe!

[deuc647]

y'all need to stop shytting on the dealers for real, them plugging there products is just as bad as everyone having their myspace or soundclick link in y'alls sig. Gil, i like what i hear from the clips , but please tell me that is 3k msrp and not street? Also how is the clock in the unit? could it function as a master?

[beats workin']

thought I'd chime in to clear up the signal chain questions.
tracks are as follows:
Kick- RE20--TAB V78
Snare- RE16 or Beyer Soundstar Mk3--TAB V78
KIT 44- RCA 44BX-- Neve 1066 (no eq)
KIT 67- U67-- Neve 1066 (no eq)
Bass- DI into TAB V78 (bass is an old Jazz bass with flatwounds)
EG - Royer 121- TG2
AG- U67--1066
Perc.- U67--1066
Prophet/Rhodes- DI-- V78
Melodica- RCA 44 into 1066 into IVP PRV-1
Vox- U67 --1066

as UBK said, all tracks are without fx or eq. the only exception is on the initial rough mix I put an 1176 on the lead vocal, to smash the living daylights and bejesus out of it.
Hope these tracks help give some insight-
david

[Empire Prod]

My opinion is that those converters sound amazing and people should stop being such pussies about the possible color they may provide.

Seriously!

When and where do you guys decide to start making things sound good? Mastering?


Grow a pair guys! It's OK to make things sound great at every stage of the process. Being a scared little ultraconservative engineer does absolutely no good to anyone. Trust your ears! IF IT SOUNDS GOOD DO IT!

[MicSlut666]

@ u b k

Did you use the old Apogee AD16 or the new Apogee AD16x with the built in Big Ben Wordclock? There is supposed to be a BIG diference.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by BrianT

Very narrow-minded viewpoint, IMO.

I started making records in 1980. On 2" tape.

Every single 2" tape machine imparted it's own particular "flavor" to the recording process. All sounded different, some more than others. Beefy vs transparent, etc. You picked your machine based on a combination of it's features along with what you preferred, in terms of tone.

So here we are, nearly all of us trying to get our digital recording to sound more like tape, and there is the pronouncement that all AD/DA converters must sound like nothing!

I totally, completely disagree. Personally, I want AD converters that give me a leg up on warming up digital recordings. God knows they generally need it. If you want dry, neutral (IMO = antiseptic) AD converters, fine. But don't think everybody agrees about that, as some sort of "law". Not even close, over here.

I want to have a listen to the Burls. Precisely because they are not neutral.

Yes! What the hell people? Ever heard tape? It sounds nothing, absolutely nothing like the source. I'll always remember the 1st time I recorded my bass to tape at Capitol studios, the sound of me playing through the headphones, and then the playback off the tape. Wait, thats my bass? It was better than my bass.

Anyway, these sound really nice. I love what they do to the drums, almost like you could get away with using less compression (always nice). And yet they sound more hi fi than the Apogees as well. Very cool. I wonder how it does with extreme mastering type clipping.

[wildpark]

well first impression is really nice

if there was not

pre processing with exclusive neve gear

i hope some aiff s are postet soon

with just the convertor and meaby a martech pre too see what it really do

that i could better judge for myself.

thanks patrick

[DanielSon]

Interesting little converter. I as well would like to hear them in my environment, that for me is the best test of all.

Was it stated what Apogee was used?

[theblotted]

this agrees with a thread i started a few months back -

if money wasn't an issue, using different AD's for different instruments will yield interesting results... kind of like having diff colors with diff preamps/compressors, mixture of transparent and colored AD's are just as reasonable.

good post UBK now let's see them pic's

[binarybob]

Originally Posted by GilWave

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[bit mangler]

Originally Posted by emeraldcityeg

great review, greg -- your affiliations with wave aside, you did a thorough job here.

to me the kick and toms in the burl mix sound like the real, analog deal. while the apogee sounds good, it sounds more 'digital' to my ears.

this device could make me not miss tape in my next session.

So you registered to post about Burl Audio ummmmmm......
so tell us your association with Burl if you would please

[mdme_sadie]

Originally Posted by binarybob

What difference does it make whether I know him? The equation is pretty evident. He makes compelling, detailed, well-supported posts that create a buzz about products you distribute. Perhaps he's paid in gear or discounts, or money, or perdiems or otherwise.

It's MARKETING.

Which is fine. It's just that it would be less nauseating if it were more clearly identified as sponsored testimony, rather than trying to pretend it's ulteriority-free peer-to-peer information sharing, and then protesting when some of us point out that it's not.

Cool product, by the way. Do keep the thread alive.

That's true, but not stating as such beforehand will always undermine you and your argument when it eventually is disclosed. It's better to be upfront about this stuff, then people will appreciate your honesty and be able to leave their hangups and fanboyisms at the door.

Honestly regardless the stuff shown here does to me sound very nice and analogue "fat", it's a coloration that I'd happily take any day over digital precision (and wish that there was a way to get such a nice tone using a computer for the man on the shoestring budget). Good in = good out.

BTW Wouldn't you get more of a response if you were asciijim?