Atmosphere and Trilogy for Intel Macs is here

[rosewoodstrat]

Are your results you are getting different than what the performance chart for Logic shows? Please let us know if they are....keep in mind that this is a Public Beta, not an official product update.

The wrapper solution for Atmosphere depends a lot on what host, what Mac OS, what computer and what buffer setting you are using.

Thanks for your time in communicating Eric. It is wholly appreciated, and you have indeed created one of the greatest sounding software instruments in Atmosphere.

While I haven't checked my MacBook/Atmosphere wrapper performance stats against your performance chart, I have discovered that on quite a few patches, even one note can send the MacBook's 2Ghz CPU into the red. Naturally, this is on a lower buffer setting, usually 128, which I find is a given when recording, especially with patches that have a fast attack.

Of course, a higher buffer setting of 1024 definitely helps to cure the problem, but it's just not feasible to record a part at this buffer setting unless it's an evolving pad or something with a slower attack curve.

The problem isn't with the wrapper's latency specification, which you pointed out yourself is the same as Atmosphere running native. The wrapper just seems to turn Atmosphere into the equivalent of a Mini towing a Hummer (yes, on my 1 1/2 year old 2Ghz MacBook, but the laptop handles everything else that I subject it to without any notable CPU overhead issues, apart from maybe some more data intensive patches on Arturia's Moog Modular V).

I recall using Atmosphere years ago on OS9 - I remember being hugely impressed with it's CPU overhead on my old G4 1Ghz dual Quicksilver...

My main system is a G5 2.7Ghz dual, and I don't have immediate plans to upgrade to the Mac Pro yet as quite a few plugins (in particular, a few Native Instruments) that I use don't run on the Mac Pro platform yet either (so Spectrasonics were not the only company here taking some time...) Atmosphere was one of those plugins, and of course runs fine on the G5. I look forward to similar performance on my lowly MacBook when Spectrasonics releases a native solution for Atmosphere on the Intel platform.

In the meantime, I'll stick to the evolving pads on my laptop and avoid the faster attack patches...however I may end up by default creating a couple of ambient new age CD's between now and then...!

[spectrum]

Yes, the wrapper is not a perfect solution for every system, which is why we aren't proclaiming "Intel Mac compatibility" for Atmosphere and Trilogy. Part of the reason for the frustration on this thread is not only the high expectation of having the "perfect solution" delivered first, but also that this thread was inaccurately titled by an enthusiastic user, giving the wrong impression that the company was officially announcing full Intel Mac compatibility for Atmosphere and Trilogy...when it's just an interim support solution that we are making available as a free public beta, since it will be a very useful thing for the majority of our users. If you look at our news item and email announcement, we aren't presenting it as anything different than what it is.

The wrappers do take much more CPU to pull-off than the plugs running native on PPC computers. That's why this solution works better for Trilogy (works fine on pretty much any system), since Bass parts don't require as many voices. Atmosphere will also work quite well if you've got a faster system like a current iMac or a Mac Pro.

So unfortunately, some configurations fall through the cracks as far as usability, like the limitations of Atmosphere with an older Macbook running Leopard, but it didn't make sense for us to hold back this option for so many users that would immediately benefit from it...especially since we had it working already.

Hope that explains our thinking and what the function of the wrapper release is a little better.

Cheers!

spectrum

[Igotsoul4u]

Originally Posted by spectrum

No worries Kris...there's a lot of good stuff in the works for the future. :-)

yeah but how much will this "good stuff" cost????? I ended up picking up replacement plugs for trilogy and atmosphere full of good stuff. I will definitely shelve both of them if there is some crazy upgrade fee. Its already been headache and I don't need a wallet ache on top of it all.

[jonnypowell]

Pretty damn un-stable over here.. I've only loaded up Trilogy as well, wassaving Atmosphere for later.
I'm on a Mac-Book Pro intel core 2 duo 2.16gig running Logic 8.
Logic keeps crashing and I'm constantly getting streaming errors.

I'm pretty pissed off that I've waited for this long to get such a shonky solution. I understand there "are great things in store", but come on! Intel has been out for a LONG time now..
As far as sounds go Trilogy and Atmosphere can't be touched by other plugs, but I feel a bit alienated by this whole experience. It goes in the same boat as UAD software.
Why is it the best developers take so long to update their products?

[jonnypowell]

Also I've noticed that there is latency between trilogy and the rest of the track. It's minimal but still quite noticeable..

[spectrum]

Hmm....you shouldn't be getting Logic crashes or streaming errors with Trilogy. Also, playback of your Trilogy tracks should have no latency. What buffer setting are you using?

I'd suggest contacting tech support with your results, because it functions here with the same rig as yours with none of those problems - so your results should be far better than what you are describing.

Tech support: info@spectrasonics.net

They'd be happy to help you sort out what's going on with your system.

[elambo]

Holy sh!t - is no one reading Eric's posts? He's said over and over that it's not yet ready for prime-time. It's a public beta and I'm sure they'll continue making improvements. I for one understand that it takes a lot of work to port these from OS9 to OSX, then to Intel, and in the meantime working on new products that will undoubtedly be great.

Thanks for posting, Eric. Very few software designers take the time to answer so many questions personally, and nearly none will repeat their answers for those who don't want to read.

I'm also frustrated by the length of time it's taking to get Atmo and Trilo Intel-ready, and in fact that's the ONLY reason I haven't upgraded to an Intel machine yet. I can wait a little longer.

[musikwerks]

I think Spectrasonics have a pretty good "upgrade" history so far. Remember how much Big Bad Beats, Liquid Grooves etc cost as Akai format libraries? And how much are they now as RMX libraries?

[bobmaus]

OK, so what happens when PT & other music apps go Leopard compatible (soon) then this solution may not work at all, "again". Rosetta apps don't do real well in Leopard!

Bad business strategy, too cheap to get top notch programmers and trying to squeeze the last bit of money they can before they fold or give us another lame solution. These people are trying to pimp software that is out of date and they don't even have a "real" solution in the works.

I will admit their samples are good, but they don't appear to have the business sense or available capital to actually "do it the right way" Unfortunately, folks who have great potential products often get sidetracked by misplaced business strategy and not investing in the best programmers and advice you can find. I'm just not hearing that kind of intelligent rhetoric from Spectrum; mostly excuses and promises that should have been fulfilled over a year ago.

Also their policy to sell your software to another party sucks too, they want a fee to transfer and then the new owner doesn't even get the same upgrade options as the original owner. You get to pay to be in the club and then we'll charge you even more for the updates (what updates??)

My apologies to any who are offended, but when you spend $300+ and it works for 9 months and then it's obsolete till further notice doesn't set right with me. I think they should offer a refund to all who are not able to utilize it any longer! Or maybe Spectrum can go into politics where misleading the facts and not delivering to your constituents is the norm!!

[spectrum]

bobmaus, I understand you're frustrated with the wait and you have a right to be, but I'd like to try and reply to your concerns, since there's a lot of misinformation and innaccuracy in your post.

It's a difficult conversation to have with you, since whatever I seem to say, you insist on interpreting as an "excuse" or a "false promise"....so this conversation ends up being a "Catch-22" if you don't accept anything I'm saying.

So let's try again. :-)

Originally Posted by bobmaus

OK, so what happens when PT & other music apps go Leopard compatible (soon) then this solution may not work at all, "again". Rosetta apps don't do real well in Leopard!

This interim solution really depends on the system. Trilogy produces good results in the Leopard systems we've tested.

Bad business strategy

The majority of feedback we've received from the wrappers is that it's very good business strategy to provide a free interim solution that works for the majority of our users while we are transitioning to completely using our in-house technology.

too cheap to get top notch programmers

LOL! :-)

Our in-house software development team is widely considered the best in the business and created the award-winning, best-selling and best-supported Stylus RMX SAGE engine technology - which was the very FIRST VI plug-in in the world to go native Universal Binary on Intel Macs.

Don't you think that's a good group to have working on our next in-house technology that the future development of Atmosphere and Trilogy will be based on?

I certainly do. :-)

and trying to squeeze the last bit of money they can before they fold

Whoa, whoa, whoa! What are you talking about?

This wrapper solution is 100% FREE and we did it completely as a support service to EXISTING CUSTOMERS to help ease their transition to intel macs.

We DO NOT claim that Atmosphere and Trilogy are now "Intel Compatible" or "Universal Binary".

The packaging on both products STILL clearly states that they are only officially compatible with PPC Macs.

So this support solution public beta was an additional cost for us, that does not generate ANY revenue or new sales at all. So that criticism that we are somehow "milking the users" is not at all valid.

give us another lame solution.

You don't think a future based on in-house developed, native UB plug-ins is a good long-term solution?

I do. :-)

These people are trying to pimp software that is out of date

I'm confused about that claim. (although I think that's the first time I've been called a pimp)

We're not trying to present these instruments as anything other than what they are. If you feel like we're misleading anyone, I'd like to know why, so that we can do a better job of representing what we do. There's always room for improvement in our communication with our users.

It really pains me to hear any customer of ours that has such a distorted view of what our motives are...especially when we are working really hard here to communicate and provide working solutions.

...and they don't even have a "real" solution in the works.

You can choose not to believe anything I'm saying, but please don't pass your speculation off as some kind of fact that you don't know anything about. That just makes it incredibly difficult to try and communicate.

I'm very happy to say that your accusation is dead wrong. :-)

I will admit their samples are good, but they don't appear to have the business sense or available capital to actually "do it the right way" Unfortunately, folks who have great potential products often get sidetracked by misplaced business strategy....

Well, I'm happy to report that we've been in business now for 14 years. That's longer than Propellerheads, NI or many other software companies.

Major transitions are always tricky to do. We've managed several of them already.

We've got an excellent track record with our users and with our support too. Just ask around. :-)

I'm just not hearing that kind of intelligent rhetoric from Spectrum; mostly excuses and promises that should have been fulfilled over a year ago.

You're simply convinced that the long-term Intel Mac solutions for these instruments should have been done a long time ago, so you're jumping to all sorts of wrong conclusions about why it hasn't been done already.

Yes, it takes time to do a major transition properly. But we are 100% committed to doing it the right way. Ironically, "doing it the right way" is exactly why it takes such a long time. :-)

Also their policy to sell your software to another party sucks too, they want a fee to transfer and then the new owner doesn't even get the same upgrade options as the original owner. You get to pay to be in the club and then we'll charge you even more for the updates (what updates??)

That's also incorrect.

License transfered versions are eligible for all maintanence updates. They are also eligible for the full upgrade path too.

The only difference is that there are sometimes special upgrade deals that are available to original users only. We think it's fair that customers that paid full price for their instruments should have some special deals from time to time.

My apologies to any who are offended, but when you spend $300+ and it works for 9 months and then it's obsolete till further notice doesn't set right with me.

Hang on....that's also not a fair representation.

When you buy any software from any manufacturer, it is only guaranteed to work with the officially supported systems that it was developed for. It is never guaranteed to work with all future operating systems, processors, host changes, etc. It would be impossible for any company to fulfill a promise like that.

So at a really basic level, Atmosphere and Trilogy still work perfectly on all the officially supported systems these instruments were developed for.

Of course the goal of any good developer is to continue to be able to offer updates that allow the user to continue working even if THEY CHANGE their hardware and software to unsupported systems. (like you did)

This is what we have done for Atmosphere and Trilogy for 6 years. They were developed for OS9 and we have done numerous FREE updates to support OSX, Audio Units, and many other issues to keep them working with new Mac systems.

However, when the company that owned the original technology we licensed for Atmosphere and Trilogy told us that the code we licensed could not be ported to Intel Mac native code without a complete rewrite, it made much more sense to do it ourselves instead...and to do it in such a way that we wouldn't have to have these types of interruptions for our customers to be able to continue using these instruments on future systems.

In other words, that Atmosphere and Trilogy users could have the same outstanding level of innovation and support that we've been able to provide to our Stylus RMX users.

That's a good thing....right? :-)

So that's exactly what we are doing, it just takes a lot of time to build things from the ground up.

The wrappers were a way that we could provide an additional support solution, that would work for many of our customers to help the transition.

I'll reiterate that there's a lot more news on the way. :-)

I think they should offer a refund to all who are not able to utilize it any longer!

If you no longer wish to be a licensed user, please contact customer service directly and we'll try to work something out with you.

info@spectrasonics.net

I hope that info is helpful to you.

Best,

spectrum

[zvenx]

Eric your patience always amazes me.
To bobmaus, did you ever see when you purchased the product anything on the box or on spectrasonics website to indicate that it is or will be macintel ready soon?
rsp

[imusic]

well, it is nice to have you here and let us know what is happening with your software,...

but - I have the feeling even we will see some new things at NAMM (which we all waiting for,... !!) I guess we will have to wait for some more month to get that stuff (otherwise you would not have offered us the wrapper - purely my specultation !)

It would have been better, leave the wrapper stuff and tell people to wait until sometimes next year,...

my2cts, keep up your good work (still happy with Stylus RMX but can not use the other 2 packages anymore...)

best, imusic

[spectrum]

Originally Posted by imusic

It would have been better, leave the wrapper stuff and tell people to wait until sometimes next year,...

Hah!

There are thousands of users right now that would strongly disagree with you. :-)

BTW...to those that think we spent years working on the wrappers, you've totally got the wrong idea. It was something additional that we realized we could do fairly recently, so we did them as a side support project to the major work we are doing here.

my2cts, keep up your good work (still happy with Stylus RMX but can not use the other 2 packages anymore...)

How come? Did the wrappers not work for you?

[imusic]

I never tried it ,... !

I just stay away from wrappers and other stuff, ... it slowes the system and brings usually problems , ...

will wait until you have the UB versions ready!!! I hope I can get rid of other players and use my excellent Spectrasonics CD ROMS on your player !!!!

Spectrasonics does great stuff but the wrapper thingy was the wrong thing at the wrong timinig

best, imusic

[Broken]

The more people complain = the more time spectrum has to spend responding to complaints = less time making cool stuff.

I'm just getting exited about the prospect of the imposcars filter making it's way over to Atmos and Trilogy. Fingers crossed

[bobmaus]

First off Eric, I want to remind you that I exchanged almost a dozen emails with you about your plans or lack thereof for Trilogy in SEP of 2006. I have not intention of repeating the conversation here. You had no intel development in place at that time and would not even say when you might have an upgrade. Therefore, I don't buy any excuses, you had time to make the change and let down your user base. Period. You should own up the that at the very least.

I'll just pose a few questions/comments to follow up.

- Where was spectrum when Apple made available development kits for the intel changeover almost a year before the machines actually appeared? Don't you plan farther ahead then the last processor? I mean look, if you would have come out with an interim wrapper a couple of months after the intel macs hit, I would've at least seen some progress and given you some credit. But let's not confuse enthusiasm with progress. You left alot of folks who migrated to intel macs without any way to use the software for over a year and finally, NOW, you give us interim to the long term solution?

Other major companies who have been around for alot less then 14yrs were on the ball with intel macs and most delivered timely upgrades and with very good stability, IMO! Where was spectrum then?

Further more, I thought the first interface to Trilogy was somewhat of a crude interface to begin with. It did work well enough and you could get the job done, but was unconventional to the Macintosh interface guidelines, IMO. Was that bit of programming out sourced??

I'll admit that commenting about budgets and programmers with no knowledge of actual conditions is more of a hunch of what problems might be plaguing software developers. However, I have previously worked for Apple, been an Apple dealer, Digidesign dealer and been using Pro Tools since it came out. I've been through many updates and upgrade scenarios through the years and have witnessed hi tech companies come and go. Many times the best creative ideas get misguided by lack of capital and/or good solid strategies to keep their client base and grow their business for the future. In that respect, you have failed me as a user, since I have had no way to use Trilogy since Sep 2006, yet all my other music applications had been revved and upgraded by then and continue to work fine in the intel mac world! If you've been around 14 years perhaps your vast experience didn't serve you well in this instance.

[BrianT]

Let me make sure I get this straight.

1. Eric Persing, who is probably the most respected sample-based instrument developer in the world (he is in my book), takes his time to patiently reply to a somewhat misinformed and largely accusatory rant, from a dissatisfied user.

2. In his reply, Eric acknowledges the customer's right to be dissatisfied, remaining calm and considerate, despite the (IMO) inflammatory and condescending customer.

2. At the end of Eric's reply, he recommends that the dissatisfied user contact customer support if he no longer wants to be a user, and they will try to work something out. Knowing Eric personally, this means bending over backwards to make things right with the guy.

3. After all the above, Eric gets another business lecture from the guy, who apparently thinks he is "all that" because he was once a Digidesign dealer. Hmmm.

On the one hand, we have the guy who defined and then redefined sample/loop libraries and virtual instruments. IMO, who sets the sonic standard by which other VIs are measured. He is calm and courteous in his posts.

On the other hand, a guy who is really unhappy about waiting for UB, who used to work for Apple (in an unknown capacity) and who once was a dealer for Digidesign. He is agitated and condescending in his posts, giving uninvited business and ethics advice will-nilly to one of the most successful, high integrity developers in music-dom.

The internet is a freaky place, sometimes. You see lots of whack stuff, and then on rare occasion, you see a demonstration of pure class. A breath of fresh air.

In a perfect world, classiness would be contagious. Let's see if it works in this thread.

[musikwerks]

Indeed.

Very nicely put Mr T.

[wirrareka]

brianT +1

[elambo]

+2 Brian - this Bob guy just shot to the top of the "Biggest Loser/Wanker at GS" list.

Eric - why waste so much time on this one guy who's not going to be persuaded with logic. Clearly. This waste of your time is only delaying your work on future projects, which is starting to make ME mad, too...

[noiseflaw]

Originally Posted by BrianT

Let me make sure I get this straight.

1. Eric Persing, who is probably the most respected sample-based instrument developer in the world (he is in my book), takes his time to patiently reply to a somewhat misinformed and largely accusatory rant, from a dissatisfied user.

2. In his reply, Eric acknowledges the customer's right to be dissatisfied, remaining calm and considerate, despite the (IMO) inflammatory and condescending customer.

2. At the end of Eric's reply, he recommends that the dissatisfied user contact customer support if he no longer wants to be a user, and they will try to work something out. Knowing Eric personally, this means bending over backwards to make things right with the guy.

3. After all the above, Eric gets another business lecture from the guy, who apparently thinks he is "all that" because he was once a Digidesign dealer. Hmmm.

On the one hand, we have the guy who defined and then redefined sample/loop libraries and virtual instruments. IMO, who sets the sonic standard by which other VIs are measured. He is calm and courteous in his posts.

On the other hand, a guy who is really unhappy about waiting for UB, who used to work for Apple (in an unknown capacity) and who once was a dealer for Digidesign. He is agitated and condescending in his posts, giving uninvited business and ethics advice will-nilly to one of the most successful, high integrity developers in music-dom.

The internet is a freaky place, sometimes. You see lots of whack stuff, and then on rare occasion, you see a demonstration of pure class. A breath of fresh air.

In a perfect world, classiness would be contagious. Let's see if it works in this thread.

Good post. Thank you.

[bobmaus]

Look, I'll go ahead and admit I'm a bit enraged at Spectrum for not doing due diligence in getting their software updated and for that I apologize to Eric and the other folks here. I won't say anything else negative on the subject. I thank Eric for the opportunity to get compensated or rectified. Although, when I asked that question in Sep 2006 I was told no deal.

I have only one final question and I'll let the development continue sans, Bob's ravings.

Eric,

At this moment has there been "any" UB code written at all for Trilogy or Atomsphere? If the answer is no then I stick by my statement that you have dropped the ball. It's been over 2 years since Apple announced the Intel switch!

Thanks Eric, I'll contact you on the "work it out" scenario.

Peace to all that may have been offended by my posts; I'm just giving my opinion, and surely don't have all the answers, but having been working with music software for years, I think I have the right to state some of the obvious pitfalls of that business, including keeping your product up to date and viable for getting the job done.

Some Complements Too:

I want to acknowledge that I think the sounds in Trilogy are Awesome and I think the Acoustic Upright Bass is the best I've ever heard. The sounds and samples are all very good and very usable for production! Spectrum has some of the best samples out there and were early adopters in sampling realm!

After more than a year, I just want to be able to use them again and was hoping for a total UB solution by now. Fair Enough?

[Ashermusic]

Eric is FAR more patient with this guy than i would be.

The switch to Intel chips, which was literally sprung on the industry as Apple likes to drop bombs, through a major curve at developers.

Spectrasonics was vulnerable because 2 of their 3 virtual instruments had UIs that they did not design. The one that did, Stylus RMX, became UB in short order. The others are taking a long time.

No one was forced to give up their PPCs and go to a MacIntel. That choice if one made it (I have not yet) carried with it the penalty of the incompatibility of some hardware and software.

Fro me for instance I would have to sell my 2 UAD-1 PCI cards and then buy 2 UAD-1 PCI-E cards. I would need a different audio interface as my Echo Layla 3g is PCI. Some of my plugs would still not be compatible.

So should I be here ranting at UA because of the cost and inconvenience of the transition? Should I be ranting at Echo because they have chosen to focus on Firewire and therefore apparently will not be doing a PCI-e version of the Layla 3g?

Once again, Eric, I am awed by your patience. I would have told this guy to take a long walk off a short pier by now.

[spectrum]

Originally Posted by bobmaus

I have only one final question and I'll let the development continue sans, Bob's ravings.

Eric,

At this moment has there been "any" UB code written at all for Trilogy or Atomsphere? If the answer is no then I stick by my statement that you have dropped the ball. It's been over 2 years since Apple announced the Intel switch!

I'm surprised that the answer isn't clear by all my previous answers.

The answer is: YES

We have been building a brand new engine for the last three years (which is not an unusually long time for building an advanced engine from the ground up). The new engine is all native UB code of course and will be the basis of many future Spectrasonics instruments as well as the future of our current ones like Atmosphere and Trilogy.

This major project was in the works well BEFORE the Intel announcement from Apple - which turned what was supposed to be a smooth, behind-the-scenes transition from Spectrasonics using all licensed technology to completely our own technology - into more of a bumpy, public issue....since so many users rely on these instruments every day and want to transition to the new Macs.

It's also worth noting that Apple was working on this for 5 years behind the scenes so that they could make the transition as seamless as they did to a completely different processor architecture. Unfortunately, we didn't have that advantage this time, so that announcement happened in middle of our development cycle.

But hey....that's the software biz....right? :-)

I'm not complaining, though. It's a great blessing to be able to create instruments that people love so much. Plus, what's happening here at the company is super positive and there's much more to talk about pretty soon. :-)

Thanks Eric, After more than a year, I just want to be able to use them again and was hoping for a total UB solution by now. Fair Enough?

Of course.

We are doing the maximum to ensure that there's not ever a support delay like that again with any of our products. That's a primary point of completely moving to our own technology. There's just way more involved than people realize, so it takes much longer to do it properly than most people can imagine.

Best,

spectrum

[RBowlin]

I use RMX on a regular basis. I'm always amazed at the depth of this program. Recently, I discovered what I thought was a quirky bug-like problem and called Spectrasonics and left a message. My call was promptly returned and my questions answered. All but one...