Black Lion Audio 2 channel A/D coming very soon!

[jimj166]

Hi,
We are going to be releasing an incredible quality 2 channel A/D converter
very soon. The pricing for it will also be on the very generous side (though not set yet, between $600-$700 I believe).

Have a listen to the A/B clips we have made with the beta unit so far-http://www.box.net/shared/static/n1kxqfdkjo.zip

The Link and some more info can also be found the third paragraph down on our home page- Black Lion Audio Home

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by jimj166

Hi,
We are going to be releasing an incredible quality 2 channel A/D converter
very soon. The pricing for it will also be on the very generous side (though not set yet, between $600-$700 I believe).

Have a listen to the A/B clips we have made with the beta unit so far-http://www.box.net/shared/static/n1kxqfdkjo.zip

The Link and some more info can also be found the third paragraph down on our home page- Black Lion Audio Home

Hey Jim. Great news! Check your PM.. Also, for some reason, I can't read the sample file you put up. Can you post this in mp3? Thanks....

[andremattos]

Great Jim !!!
I am very happy with my 002Mod , i will try buy your new converter!!

[OldTimey]

the speech and synth samples sounded remarkably similar. to my ears though, i preferred the sound of the Benchmark on acoustic guitar. The BLA one sounded a little midrangey and phasey when going back and forth. it's not a bad sound at all, but when i put the two side by side i think i prefer the benchmark. in a blind test i'd probably choose the BLA since it sounds louder. anyway, i've always been intrigued by your products so good luck!

[halfguard]

ill be paying attention for sure...

[PlugHead]

Great news.

More (A/D) options are always good.

best with it's success...

[wildpark]

hello jim

can we know which benchmark model are for your test !

my first impression is

of course benchmark is more clean but less warm

new bla converter seems pimpt with limiting and some saturation effekt


greetz patrick

[jeronimo]

What about a D/A converter?

[wildpark]

hello jeronimo iam not jim

but since mp3 nobody needs more as a consumer d/a monitoring

greetz patrick

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by wildpark

hello jeronimo iam not jim

but since mp3 nobody needs more as a consumer d/a monitoring

greetz patrick

????????

[OldTimey]

ohh yes, a nice two channel D/A with a big volume knob or switch, I'd get that before a BLA A/D. There are just more options in the A/D market, from project up to high end. on the D/A monitoring side, options are a bit more limited. (as in you can't get a decent one for less than 1000...Mytek maybe, or the Mini DAC, but still not enough options!)

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by OldTimey

ohh yes, a nice two channel D/A with a big volume knob or switch, I'd get that before a BLA A/D. There are just more options in the A/D market, from project up to high end. on the D/A monitoring side, options are a bit more limited. (as in you can't get a decent one for less than 1000...Mytek maybe, or the Mini DAC, but still not enough options!)

I agree!

[living sounds]

Are you sure this is coming from the same source? Especially on the vocals it sounds VASTLY different. Do you use step-down transformers or something in the unit? I really dig the vocal though, what's in the chain?

[jimj166]

Yes, all the clips are from the same source. Each clip comparison was honestly duplicated exactly the same.
The chain into the source was a OktavaMod MK319 into a Universal Audio 610B mic preamplifier

[living sounds]

So what do you use? IC Opamps? Discrete Opamps? Or transformers? I'm hearing things that make me think of the latter...

[puff]

Are you sure this is coming from the same source? Especially on the vocals it sounds VASTLY different. Do you use step-down transformers or something in the unit? I really dig the vocal though, what's in the chain?

As Jim says, it's all from the same source (the 'read me' text file in the folder lists our signal chain). We thought the differences between the two were pretty immense, and I'm disappointed that no one on this thread has picked that up until now. It leaves me scratching my head and wondering what everyone is monitoring with. There's no soft limiting going on, no phasing in the midrange, no EQ, no compression. Nothing except the mic, the preamp, and the A/D. The distortion you're hearing on the keyboard is directly from the source. The reflections you're hearing on the acoustic guitar sample is what the room sounds like.

So what do you use? IC Opamps? Discrete Opamps? Or transformers? I'm hearing things that make me think of the latter...

I'm glad it makes you think of transformers, but surprisingly we're just using two fully balanced transformerless input stages, one for each channel. They are IC-opamp based, slew rate is just under 6000 volts per microsecond. Headroom is pretty big--about 33dB. That's comparable to what you'll find in most console master bus sections (the good ones, anyway). It's an extremely simplistic design with no microprocessors, no FPGA's, nothing except manual switch-based hardware controls (on/off, master clock select, and sampling rate select). We wanted to keep the signal chain as short as possible, so there is no volume control stage, no preamp. It will take roughly a +6dB signal before the converter starts to clip.

One thing I was hoping people would notice about these samples is how smooth the top end response in our A/D is. It's very hard to get good high-frequency response in an A/D--the immense amount of current moving to ground creates unwanted harmonics. Those harmonics translate to a grainy-sounding distortion in the upper frequencies, and its very hard to minimize. Maybe most of you don't realize this--this design challenge is one reason why a good A/D is MUCH more expensive than a good D/A. Personally, I think the fact that we've managed to achieve this sort of sound quality at a $600 price point is remarkable.

We're expecting to have some beta units ready this week. Those are headed to a couple of people who post regularly on this board. I'm sure they'll be happy to detail their findings.

And yes, we have a two channel D/A on the way as well.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[tonymite]

hey Matt - which converter chips will the DA use ? Crystal or BB ?? :))

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by puff

... It leaves me scratching my head and wondering what everyone is monitoring with. ...
Matt
Black Lion Audio

That's what I'm talking about.

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by puff

As Jim says, it's all from the same source (the 'read me' text file in the folder lists our signal chain). We thought the differences between the two were pretty immense, and I'm disappointed that no one on this thread has picked that up until now. It leaves me scratching my head and wondering what everyone is monitoring with. There's no soft limiting going on, no phasing in the midrange, no EQ, no compression. Nothing except the mic, the preamp, and the A/D. The distortion you're hearing on the keyboard is directly from the source. The reflections you're hearing on the acoustic guitar sample is what the room sounds like.


I'm glad it makes you think of transformers, but surprisingly we're just using two fully balanced transformerless input stages, one for each channel. They are IC-opamp based, slew rate is just under 6000 volts per microsecond. Headroom is pretty big--about 33dB. That's comparable to what you'll find in most console master bus sections (the good ones, anyway). It's an extremely simplistic design with no microprocessors, no FPGA's, nothing except manual switch-based hardware controls (on/off, master clock select, and sampling rate select). We wanted to keep the signal chain as short as possible, so there is no volume control stage, no preamp. It will take roughly a +6dB signal before the converter starts to clip.

One thing I was hoping people would notice about these samples is how smooth the top end response in our A/D is. It's very hard to get good high-frequency response in an A/D--the immense amount of current moving to ground creates unwanted harmonics. Those harmonics translate to a grainy-sounding distortion in the upper frequencies, and its very hard to minimize. Maybe most of you don't realize this--this design challenge is one reason why a good A/D is MUCH more expensive than a good D/A. Personally, I think the fact that we've managed to achieve this sort of sound quality at a $600 price point is remarkable.

We're expecting to have some beta units ready this week. Those are headed to a couple of people who post regularly on this board. I'm sure they'll be happy to detail their findings.

And yes, we have a two channel D/A on the way as well.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

Hey Matt. Very good..... Can't wait to hear this one! Give me a PM/e-mail...

[Soundgeeza]

Well to me, I much prefer the sound of the BLA clips (even compensating for the louder guitar on BLA). For that sort of price, I think it would make a useful addition to any arsenal of tools...

Great value for that sort of price, but with the $/£ as it is at the moment, I think that you just may be receiving my credit card details!

[wildpark]

hey jeronimo iam a little late

you are right in one position sound wise

for my self i use a benchmark d a for mp3

but i mostly work with consumer d a means cheapest ot there

or old rme d a

cuz most consumer will not buy a extra d a for the 100 dollar stereo system.

greetz patrick

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by wildpark

hey jeronimo iam a little late

you are right in one position sound wise

for my self i use a benchmark d a for mp3

but i mostly work with consumer d a means cheapest ot there

or old rme d a

cuz most consumer will not buy a extra d a for the 100 dollar stereo system.

greetz patrick

well patrick,

I have to disagree on your line of thought.

If I follow you, we should be tracking at 44.1/16 (that's overkill) and mixing on a boombox with $10 D/A converters.

With great D/A you can work out you weakness with much more ease, but with great A/D and poor D/A you won't even know what's happening considering you have great monitors too.

[puff]

hey Matt - which converter chips will the DA use ? Crystal or BB ?? :))

At the moment, the design is only in the schematic stage. I've drawn it around the Cirrus (Crystal) CS4398, but I forgot about the BB converters. That Burr Brown PCM1794 is supposed to be incredible.

With great D/A you can work out you weakness with much more ease, but with great A/D and poor D/A you won't even know what's happening considering you have great monitors too.

I don't mean to interfere in your debate, but I can see both sides. There are weaknesses and trade offs with either situation. I don't know if one is better than the other, they're just different. With a good D/A, you can hopefully hear exactly what you're working with, and make better mixing/tracking decisions. But if your A/D is poor, your signal won't really sound good to begin with--you might be able to make better decisions, but you don't have much to work with in terms of sound quality. Ideally, it would be nice to have both an excellent A/D and a great D/A.

Our goal as a company is that we want to make well-designed equipment that's inexpensive. It's a challenge, but hopefully we're making some headway.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[living sounds]

Matt, did you get my PM? I can't wait to give this a shot...

[Snatchman]

Hey Matt. Is this a half rack or full rack enclosure? Thanks!......

[wildpark]

jeronimo

i do it and more guys like pc moderator george do it (weiss a d then rme d a )


i do

the fine tuning with digi 192 - benchmark into genelec 1031

but the last test are made on cheap a d

with cheap stereo system (a/b)



greetz patrick


p.s iam all itb (only tube pres otb)

[puff]

Matt, did you get my PM? I can't wait to give this a shot...

Thanks for letting me know--I didn't know I had a PM until I checked. Apparently I have six PM's right now, some of which have been waiting (unbeknown to me) for months.

Hey Matt. Is this a half rack or full rack enclosure?

1/3rd rack, sort of like the MiniMe only it's black and not silver.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[Stiff]

Downloading the files now... but it's slooow... I want to hear this.

Originally Posted by wildpark

i do it and more guys like pc moderator george do it (weiss a d then rme d a

Interesting concept. Anyone else doing this? George, care to chime in?

[blayz2002]

I'm monitoring through EMU1820m DA and Blue Sky Media Desk, my room is reasonably treated

...to me all the BLA clips sound more detailed definitely in the highs. Clip 1 also has more presence about it, (but these are not the same performances are they??)

I'll be interested but I'm in the UK..have you got dealers out here?

[puff]

these are not the same performances are they??

No, they were tracked one after another. Like the 'read me' file says, they were recorded pretty hastily.

I'll be interested but I'm in the UK..have you got dealers out here?

We don't have any dealers at all. No dealers and no distributor=lower prices, which is what we're trying to accomplish. We ship all over the world, though, and have sent lots of our Micro Clocks to the UK, so you're welcome to order an A/D directly from us when its available.

Matt
Black Lion Audio