Black Lion Audio 2 channel A/D coming very soon!

[lukejs]

Was the music just played louder on the guitar, or were the two converters calibrated at differenent levels ? what were they calibrated at, and what was the sample rate used ? I once did a test of my converters by setting up a stereo mic in front of one of my monitor speakers, so I could play the exact same setup while recording with different converters. This took out the variable of the guitar player.... Send me one of your converters and I'll do this for you !! (if it sounds good....I'll buy it ! )

[puff]

why was the BLA guitar sample louder than the Benchmark ?

The BLA and the Benchmark were calibrated to the same level during tracking. Technically speaking, the Benchmark's 0dBFS should be slightly hotter than our converter's 0dBFS because ADC-1 uses a 123dB dynamic range A/D chip, and ours is only 120dB. Published dynamic range/bit depth is often much greater than what's actually achieved in the real world, though. I've come up with a method of converter configuration that differs significantly from what's typically done. I've found that it greatly reduces current noise and increases actual dynamic range, that is to say, the dynamic range that's actually achieved in real world practice.

Here's where it gets a little crazy: the BLA prototype used in this test is, from a technical perspective, severely handicapped. It's powered from an AC wall wart adapter and a switched-capacitor supply (a complete no-no for A/D's as it introduces noise into the power supply line). It's a two-layer PCB, whereas four-layer PCB's are typically used in these applications because of their greater noise immunity. addendum: an additional issue with the BLA prototype used in this recording is that the reset function was incorrectly implemented, causing our A/D to have difficulty calibrating itself for the proper amount of DC offset.

I want everyone to understand, though, that this was not intended to be a full-on scientific test, but rather a quick and dirty A/B to give a taste of we could achieve at a $600-ish price point.

Send me one of your converters and I'll do this for you !!

Thanks for the offer. We have a couple of beta testers who are going to be doing this for us. One tester is going to be doing A/B tests and samples with a Mytek. The other will be using Prism, PMI, and Genex.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[Isle of Weight]

Originally Posted by puff

We have a couple of beta testers who are going to be doing this for us. One tester is going to be doing A/B tests and samples with a Mytek. The other will be using Prism, PMI, and Genex.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

Hi Matt,
i'm very interested to hear the differences between your converter and these others when do you think these samples will be available?

thanks,
AA.

[puff]

i'm very interested to hear the differences between your converter and these others when do you think these samples will be available?

It's tough to say for sure, but as soon as they are ready, we'll post them.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[Paul David]

I hear what you're saying Puff, but I also hear a difference in the performance of the guitarist. The keyboard sample is tough to guage because I'm not crazy about the timbre.

But I like where you're going with the converters. That preamp analogy was a good one. It's similar to the differnce between a Millenia HV-3 and a Neve clone. The faster pre just gives you more of the detail and less smearing of the transients. In a preamp that can be a good or bad thing but in a converter I'm the type to go for the cleanest most detailed sound possible. That's why I use Lavry Blues but these sound similar to me (from what I could tell) at a fraction of the cost.

[puff]

I hear what you're saying Puff, but I also hear a difference in the performance of the guitarist.

I understand your point. Hopefully soon we'll have multed A/B samples from the same source.

Thanks for the LB comparison, I very much appreciate it.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[jimj166]

I hear what you're saying Puff, but I also hear a difference in the performance of the guitarist. The keyboard sample is tough to guage because I'm not crazy about the timbre.

Well, with me being the guitarist, there was really no difference in my performance. That is a lost riff I have been looking to place a million times and have played a million times for many years. If you are hearing anything, it’s two completely duplicate states of boredom with the progression, played the same.

Are there subtle differences in my playing? Sure, I'm not a robot. Are there huge dynamic shifts in my playing that would warrant this a/b test useless? Or were there adjustments made to the mic position in relation to the guitar? No, absolutely not, I made sure not to have that happen to avoid comments like this. But I think we knew they would come anyway. Sometimes you can just never win.

[ticohans]

Naming idea! This only works once the D/A converter is finished, but perhaps you could rackmount it with the A/D as a single unit and call it the Pride, as in the term used to describe a pack of lions. If these products achieve what you guys are shooting for, it sounds like they'll be something to be proud of...

[subspace]

Will there be wordclock in and out provided?

[living sounds]

That's the answer I got regarding the same question:

"And regarding the I/O, it's going to have two line level inputs on the front and a single SPDIF output on the back, no BNC Wordclock I/O. "

I hope it's availible soon though.

[living sounds]

Any news on the release date?

[I <3 The Beatle]

bump

any updates? has it been released?

[puff]

I really wanted to have it available by the end of last week, but we didn't get the chassis silkscreen in until late Friday. We'll be wrapping up the final touches tomorrow (Monday), which means it will be available within the next day or two. There are several people on the waiting list, and those folks will have first choice. We'll be notifying everyone by email.

We managed to get some pretty amazing A/B samples comparing our A/D to the wonderful Genex GXA8 thanks to some good friends at Sony Scoring in Los Angeles. The engineers there that got to use and listen to our beta A/D were impressed with the sound quality, and when they found out how much we were charging they were even more wowed.

Hopefully it will serve those of you that purchase one very well.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[jeronimo]

Matt,

That´s great to hear!!!
What about the D/A, any news?

[puff]

The D/A is still in the prototype stage. I'm hoping it will be ready in late Feb/early March.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[jeronimo]

Great, I'll start saving my money

[Bierce85]

any idea what the price will be on the D/A?

[puff]

any idea what the price will be on the D/A?

Oddly, it will be more expensive than the A/D (usually it's the other way around in our industry). I would guess between $675 and $695, depending largely on what method we use to re-clock the incoming data. I've always hated PLL's, and while they are unavoidable in certain situations, we're not restricted to using them to recover the clock for the D/A. I'm experimenting with both synchronous and asynchronous methods of re-clocking at the moment, and we'll use the method that we feel is most musical.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[david1103]

i am considering a benchmark DAC1, but this could be a better option.

is your aim for your new DAC to sound as good or better than the dac1, and how good does it sound in the current prototype?

also, will it have a headphone output?

cheers.

[puff]

is your aim for your new DAC to sound as good or better than the dac1, and how good does it sound in the current prototype?

Yes, that's our goal--sound quality comparable to D/A's in the $2k-ish range. I haven't heard the DAC1 in person yet, so I can't offer any specific opinions about it. I also haven't had much time to work with our prototype DAC over the last couple of weeks because we've been so busy with the A/D.

As soon as we feel like we have attained or come reasonably close to what we're striving to do, we'll post audio samples. The biggest challenge is to design clock recovery that ensures consistent performance independent of the source unit.

We haven't settled on all of the features yet, but a headphone out is likely.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[The dman]

I'm very interested in the A to D, I've got my eye out for a Benchmark but this looks interesting. Is there any kind of return policy? I hate to buy it and find out it's not for me. Audio samples and specs can't compete with the real world experience of using it in your own room. There's certain things I won't buy without a return policy and convertors are one of them.

Thanks

I just noticed you guys are in Chi town, cool a hop skip and a jump from me. If you need any testers pm me I can A/B it with a HD24XR

[ddageek]

Hey Matt or Jim I see on the web site that the A/D has AES and SPDIF is the SPDIF optical?

[puff]

Is there any kind of return policy?

There's a 30 day return policy. Thanks for the offer to test, but we're pretty much done with testing at this point. If you want, you can stop by and visit us in our new loft space. It's in the Ravenswood Corridor right next to the Metra track and Brown Line train, and about a block away from where that street caved in yesterday. We'll be there after Feb 1.

is the SPDIF optical?

It's coaxial spdif. I didn't include optical, but coax to optical converters are very cheap and widely available. That way you can use it by itself with a MacBook.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[jayman]

Matt, I'm currently clocking from my Mytek A/D. I'm on the waiting list for your new A/D (sparrow) -- but it looks like it doesn't have wordclock output. So, will I also need your microclock? Thanks,

Jay

[Snatchman]

Hey Matt. Glad to see the AD is complete..!.... Do you have a picture available as of yet? Thanks.......

[jayman]

yeah, we want pics!!!!!!

[puff]

Matt, I'm currently clocking from my Mytek A/D. I'm on the waiting list for your new A/D (sparrow) -- but it looks like it doesn't have wordclock output. So, will I also need your microclock?

I don't know your exact setup, but IMO the Mytek is a heck of a converter. If you can clock from it via BNC, I think you're probably set. It depends upon what you're running our new A/D into, but at low sample rates (44 and 48), you might not even have to clock to the incoming spdif line if you don't wish to.

Do you have a picture available as of yet?

Yes, we do. They'll be posted later today.

Matt
Black Lion Audio

[The dman]

Matt

Can I contact you via email? If so I need your address.

Thanks

Edit: never mind I got it

[jayman]

I usually run 44. I've always thought that it's better to clock off of BNC than through spdif line. Is it not? I was thinking of dumping the mytek if the Sparrow is better, so that's why I'd like to have the clock issue figured out.

My setup is basically the Mytek going into a MOTU 828. I don't track drums or anything more than 2 channels here so just 2 channels of conversion is sufficient. And I don't need to distribute WC to anything other than my 828 interface. Lets say I didn't have the Mytek, would it be better to clock with your microclock as opposed to locking the 828 to just the sparrow via spdif? Does the sparrow have a good clock built in?

You know... people say the Apogee Rosetta sounds better when clocked to the Big Ben whereas the Apogee AD16x has a Big Ben built in. So, I guess I'm asking if the Sparrow has a good clock built in...?

j

[puff]

I usually run 44. I've always thought that it's better to clock off of BNC than through spdif line.

It's definitely better to clock from BNC than via spdif.

My setup is basically the Mytek going into a MOTU 828.

Here's where it gets a little complicated. From what we've been able to tell, there are
clock management variations from MOTU to MOTU. In other words, some 828mk2's will let you send SPDIF in while clocking externally, other 828mk2's will not. The only way we've been able to tell is to try it. If you're able to send SPDIF from your Mytek into your 828 while clocking via BNC input, you're fine, and you'd be able to use the Sparrow while clocking from the Micro Clock.

I guess I'm asking if the Sparrow has a good clock built in...?

It has the exact same clock in it that the Micro Clock has. The differences would lie in how that clock gets distributed in the Micro Clock (discrete mosfet transistor-based inverter driving a pulse transformer for galvanic isolation) vs how it gets distributed in our Micro ADC (multiplexed spdif line through a transformer for galvanic isolation). There would certainly be differences between the two in terms of sound quality, and those differences would be based largely in the format that the clock takes.

Matt
Black Lion Audio