Paying dues or is this unusual?

[lakesidedoug]

Hello all, I hope this is the right thread because this really is a business question rather than gear or technique. I have a project studio that I have invested significant money in. It's three rooms, up to 20 tracks at once, several preamps, mics etc. I know it's a long way from the level of some of the studios you guys use but it's also a big step up from an M-Audio box in a bedroom.

I have done two demo projects recently for bands because they needed get some work. I didn't charge either band anything because I am still trying to develop a portfolio of work. Free or not, lots of effort went into both projects and the bands were involved in tweaking the sounds, selecting the takes and some of the mixing. Other professionals outside of the projects have listened to the work and given positive feedback so I think both efforts were pretty solid.

The problem is both groups have neither promoted my efforts from their online sites, despite this being the one "payment" I asked for, and they have decided to re-record themselves with cheap gear. To make matters more confussing, neither band has said anything like " we really are not happy because ...", nor do they say "no we really love it and ..." so it's just awkward.

Business is business and the customer is always right, I completely understand that. What I don't understand is how to read customer feedback in this situation. Is it normal for someone to walk out of your studio claiming to love the sound and then throw the CD in the trash when they get home?

[hey_mavis]

It sounds to me like the clients are not really sure what they want. If they left loving it and are now deciding to re-record then (to me) it would mean that they did know what they wanted to hear when they were in the studio.

I have never had this specific problem per se, but I do know that clients can be strange at times.

I have had clients leave happy and then come back because a friend told them such and such was not right.

The short answer is 'I have no idea for sure', but the useful answer would be 'they prolly don't know what they want, and think they can do better by themselves - which mean they are inexperienced with the recording process'.

hope that helps!

[James Meeker]

This is a typical situation.

These are the forces working against you. Either the band didn't really like the work but aren't going to say anything to your face *OR* the more likely situation is that they liked your work and don't want their competitors (other bands) to find out where they recorded because then those other bands may end up sounding better than them.

Also, here's a tip--bands that leave the studio loving something and end up not liking it a few days later is often the product of not impressing other people as much as they thought it would. The chances of the sound being responsible for this are a lot less than the song/performances.... So as usual you get the blame.

Do not expect ANY loyalty from clients no matter what you do. Sometimes it happens but don't freak out when you don't get it. In fact, the more free time/stuff you give them the less they are going to respect you. Just do your job.

Remember: you are dealing with musicians. They are (sometimes) one step above criminals. You are talking about a bunch of poor slobs without a nickel to their names and ZERO respect for doing music with the potential to be rich and famous.... so they are going to lie, cheat, steal, kill and do whatever they think it takes to get there (except practice their instrument and write good songs).

I've said it before... this would be a great job if it weren't for the musicians....

In theory it seems like a solid idea to give free recording to jump start a studio, but in my personal experience I've found that it is always a bad idea that ends up in wasting a bunch of time.

At least there is an upside to this story--the band is going to sink some money into a recording setup and end up taking a year or two making some really terrible recordings you can laugh at. Maybe they'll be humbled enough to come back and pay for your expertise.

[dangoudie]

When I first started recording bands I did a few free sessions and found myself in a similar situation and felt really shit about it.

I recorded two of the bands again as paying customers and it was like they were different people. Having spoken about it with some colleagues I've come to the conclusion that people just don't appreciate free stuff.

If you say you'll do something for free then they immediately subconsciously assume that you're going to be rubbish or not going to put much effort in or whatever. You would have thought that would make them doubly as grateful once it's done to a good standard. But no.

When I got the bands in again I was still charging peanuts (£6.50p/h) and suddenly they LOVED everything I did and recommended me to some friends.

Maybe humans believe in TANSTAAFL by default and so a 'good deal' seems better than a freebie.

MORAL: Don't undervalue yourself.

[Bob Olhsson]

There are bands who hustle one studio after another for years. You might want to check into a band's background more before offering more spec. time to anybody.

[Savernake]

You don't seem confident enough about the songs yourself, which makes me wonder if the recordings weren't as good as you hoped, or perhaps didn't have that 'magic' - can we hear them? Maybe they're great recordings and the band are just dicks!

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by lakesidedoug

What I don't understand is how to read customer feedback in this situation.

Don't confuse these people with "customers". These people did you a favor and maybe if you're lucky they'll take you along with them when they get big.


Welcome to the world of recording.

[joelpatterson]

My experience is that usually you'll only hear something when there's a problem-- if it's fine, it's fine-- and then expecting people to be grateful and promote your name... eh....

It's gotten to where I recognize a whole series of "code phrases," that end up meaning exactly the opposite of their English language translation.

"I am definitely going to do this project" means neither you nor anyone else is ever going to hear a peep out of them.

"I would recommend you to everyone" means they are abandoning their last connections to the music industry.

"Do you have a business card?" means they will toy with this idea some more, endlessly if need be.

People who sincerely are thrilled with what you've done for them-- you can see it in their eyes, they don't need to say a word.

[wilkinswp]

I've done a few projects on spec and for free just to get some experience and some sort of track record. But, I agree with others, somehow charging money legitimizes the work. Once I get my business affairs straight--incorporated, insured etc.--I'm going to charge a lot more than I have. I feel like someone charging but giving a poorer recording to the client than someone not charging who can give a superior product is seen as being better somehow in the eye of the client.

One thing that I plan to do is promote myself on a myspace page. I'm going to record a a song or two for a band for free. But only if they'll let me put it up on my page. Well, this band and I have already agreed to this arrangement. They've paid me in the past for overdub sessions. So, I don't mind doing a freebie. Doesn't hurt that I love the music too. I don't care if they bin the recording. If it sounds all right, I'll use it to promote myself. Musicians are such cheap bastards. . . . .

[lakesidedoug]

Thank you guys for the feedback on my eperiences here. I know I have a lot to learn about this business, being a musician and the default PA/recording guy does not quite prepare you for recording groups that I am not a member of.

I had planned to start charging after these two projects, now I am convinced this is the only way to seperate those that are serious from those that are not there yet.

I had planned on keeping the rates low because there are guys in town that definately have more experience. While I relalize it's harder to raise the price too much at once down the road, (this is a 15-20 year plan), is this how most of you got things going?

Thanks again for the advice, this website is the first place I look for anything about recording, it's the best one Ihave found yet.

LakesideDoug

P.S I left the tracks off because I don't want to single the bands out, it's a small city.That said, if anyone was interested to critique them let me know I can email them directly.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by lakesidedoug

I had planned to start charging after these two projects, now I am convinced this is the only way to seperate those that are serious from those that are not there yet.

I had planned on keeping the rates low because there are guys in town that definately have more experience. While I relalize it's harder to raise the price too much at once down the road, (this is a 15-20 year plan), is this how most of you got things going?

That sounds like a good plan. Charging a rate not only seperates out a lot of the jokers but also tends to change the method of working (if you charge by the hour, don't charge by the song or project) for both the musicians and the engineer. You will learn to be better and more efficient at what you do which will make you more valuable in the long run.
Best of luck.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

I recorded two of the bands again as paying customers and it was like they were different people. Having spoken about it with some colleagues I've come to the conclusion that people just don't appreciate free stuff.

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

Charging a rate not only seperates out a lot of the jokers but also tends to change the method of working (if you charge by the hour, don't charge by the song or project) for both the musicians and the engineer. You will learn to be better and more efficient at what you do which will make you more valuable in the long run.

Originally Posted by wilkinswp

somehow charging money legitimizes the work

Originally Posted by dangoudie

If you say you'll do something for free then they immediately subconsciously assume that you're going to be rubbish or not going to put much effort in or whatever...MORAL: Don't undervalue yourself.

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

People who sincerely are thrilled with what you've done for them-- you can see it in their eyes, they don't need to say a word.

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Remember: you are dealing with musicians. They are (sometimes) one step above criminals

[8th_note]

I had planned on keeping the rates low because there are guys in town that definately have more experience. While I relalize it's harder to raise the price too much at once down the road, (this is a 15-20 year plan), is this how most of you got things going?

One thing you might consider is charging by the song instead of by the hour, at least in the early stages. This has several advantages: 1) the band knows the exact cost before they start, 2) you have flexibility on how much time you put in, and 3) as you progress it's easy to raise your rates.

I decided when I started that I would charge something for each project, even if it was ridiculously low like $25 per song. There's just a different relationship and expectation when money changes hands.I put in way more time into those early projects than the price would justify but I was doing it because I was learning and because it was very important to me that they turn out well. I charge more per song now and I'm much faster at mixing so the equation is balancing out much better.

So that's a suggestion that you might consider. I've found that a fixed price per song is a very important factor to many bands because each member can commit to pitching in the money up front - they know exactly what they are getting into. As you move up the food chain and record bands with record deals and more money, an hourly rate would make more sense.

A quick additional comment - I won't relate the full story here but I had an opportunity to record a demo for a band that was on the verge of getting a record deal (two members came from a band that had done well on the label). The problem was they had two other studios that had offered to do it for free. They were getting a lot of buzz and it would have looked good on my resume but I told them to go ahead and have another studio do the project. A couple of the members didn't get along very well and the recording process turned into a pissing match. The band broke up before the demo was even finished. I don't know how much time the studio invested but it had to have been a lot. I was so glad I didn't take on that project.

[dbbubba]

HINT:

Every time you do a session for a cut rate deal (especially a "demo") you ned a contract that gives you points if they do get a deal.

When I had a music studio I had at least five bands get signed to major label deals from my demos. I made them sound much better than they actually were in several cases.
I didn't know to ask for points.
Boy was I stupid!

ONE band carried me along on the ride in 1989.

That particular band went to another studio in another city for one session.
They signed a deal where the studio owner would give them studio time for points.
He was quickly bought out, but made some nice coin for his efforts.
I did all of their label demo work at $600.00 per day.
That was maybe twelve or so days per year.

On the other hand, I mixed that band live and made the same salary and same per diem as the band members for two years. Fair enough.
We are all friends to this day and still laugh about how I made substantially more money than they did because they had the debts left after the record deal was over!

[Ironklad Audio]

the customer is always right

bullshit, bullshit, bullshit! to quote clerks, "the customer is always an asshole"

especially when he gets free shit. like some other people said, bands don't respect the value of music that was recorded for free. charge them $200/song, and i can guarantee you that they won't toss the CD in the trash when they get home.

[ETM Dude]

When you're starting out just keep those rooms booked and don't look back. If you have to chase the bands down for praise then that means your not recording someone else at the moment. At this stage (the non-paying stage) its mostly experience that you'll want to build upon. The really great clients are few and far between, but they will show up and they will come back if they like what you do, and even recommend you to others.

It takes a lot of time, and you'll go through bands that one has every heard of or will ever hear of, but its all about improving your skills and building a portfolio.

[Stevil]

amen, musicians are total flakes, charging something makes them take it a lil more seriously.

[kafka]

Everybody repeat after me ...
People ... Never ... Value ... Free ... Stuff

It's not a music thing. It's a people thing. Never give anything away. EVER!

[TheRealRoach]

It's true. People don't value free stuff.... On the front of a relationship they do ("Man, this is great, we're going to save so much money,"), but on the back end when everything is said and done there is a different psychological effect ("Man, imagine what it would've sounded like if we hired a pro!").

I've only been doing this full time a short while compared to many on GS, but I had my first eye-opener recently when I was told that out of all of the studios that a regularly-booking client was "courting", I was the only one that wouldn't do it on spec/free/backend payment... and they decided to go with me.

If you do your best possible on everything that comes through your door, and for a rate that is fair for what you offer, you will build up a stable business within a few years.

[slaveern]

110% agree on the "free stuff" perceptions. And to further that, people have a tendency to think the product worths as much as it cost, once after they've committed to paying it. I myself am a basement studio guy and know exactly that first hand. The first EVER project that I did, when I had very little to show for (other than my own bands demo stuff), I asked for $XX/song and since that the rate can only go up. The comment about $$$ separate the jokers is real.

My recommendations:

- only do free projects with real personal 'friends' and set their expectation right off the bat
- start with a per song charge (but limit their tracking time)
- set the price as high as you possibly can in your market (research competitors), and offer discounts (so that it's easier for you to "raise your price" down the road, i.e. take discount off)
- if client is really not happy about the results, then deal with it at that time (give additional discount...etc.)

slaveern...