Working with difficult talent..what to do?

[TROT]

Hello,

I'd like some advice from slutz that have gone (more or less) through what I'm currently experiencing. I'll try to make it as short as possible.

Working with talented female (20 yrs old). Singer/songwriter with potential. Signed an exclusivity recording contract with her. The main part of the contract stipulates how many songs she needs to deliver in x amount of time and the time she needs to put into the project. She's also financially responsible for a percentage of the expenses incurred in said recordings (hardware and software) since it is a 'joint venture' so to speak, with me carrying the bulk of the expenses.

My part of the deal is to write songs and take care of the recording(s) sessions. I've put a lot of time and effort (and money) to try and give this individual a fair chance in this difficult business but she's not motivated enough to carry her part of the weight.

I think that a combination of immaturity/irresponsibility are the main cause of this situation.

My question to you is: do I keep trying to make her understand that this is a very good opportunity for her or do I call it quits with the possibility of legal action for breach of contract.

[BIGRUUDZ]

man i would just cut her loose


sounds crazy but i would. I've dealt with sooo much "promise" and "talent" and 90% of them with the greatest gifts just won't put in the work.

If they are not coming through with them, tell them whats up and your prepared to just axe the whole thing because your sick of it. A dose of reality will push them one of 2 directions...pretty self explanitory

im sooooooooo sick of flaky people its reedonkulous

[joelpatterson]

This girl is too lazy/uninspired/careless to bother to uphold her minimal end of the bargain, when this opportunity is being majorly financed by someone else... and you're worried she'll suddenly get all gung-ho to hire a lawyer and sue for breach of contract?

That dog not only don't hunt, it don't even scratch fleas.

[TROT]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

This girl is too lazy/uninspired/careless to bother to uphold her minimal end of the bargain, when this opportunity is being majorly financed by someone else... and you're worried she'll suddenly get all gung-ho to hire a lawyer and sue for breach of contract?

That dog not only don't hunt, it don't even scratch fleas.

The legal action part of the story is not about her coming after me but the opposite. She owes me money based on our contract. Not to mention tons of wasted time and effort on my side...

I was afraid of what your response(s) would be but I can see a pattern starting to emerge here...it's a shame if this working relationship comes to an end..I think she's well positioned for today's market but..and its a BIG but..I'm getting fed up..you said it well...lazy/uninspired/careless to carry her own weight..sigh..

[dan p]

Dont waste your time and $.Move on.You will look back and be glad you did!

[BioMichanical]

You can lead a horse to water....

Dude, dealing with flaky people sucks! Unmotivated and carelessness will get them nowhere and only get you annoyed and frustrated. Just think if you cut lose now, then you've reached the end of your frustration with her and that's it. It takes a WHOLE lot more than just great talent to make it in the music biz, it takes a crap load of effort, I don't care how good you are. You've got to hustle, especially in this society with piracy and millions of artists emerging on Myspace, etc. Talent and looks are only half the battle man, and you can't force her to fight the other half, she's got to want it. If she aint got the drive to follow through then can her... Next!

I know it sucks, but if you continue on with this, your only going to deal with more frustration down the road. I know it sounds a little odd, but I was watching America's next Model or some crap like that once, with that model Tyra Banks that used to pose for Victoria's secret, was like the host and one of the main judges. They had 2 twins, identical, and one had more talent than the other, but the one that had more talent, didn't have the same drive as her sister (actually her lack of drive came from not wanting to beat her sister so she wouldn't hurt her feelings), but it was lack of motivation none the less. When elimination time came, guess who was kicked out? The girl with more talent, actually she was probably the best looking one with the most talent out of the bunch, and she was kicked out because of her lack of motivation. You gotta push forward and if you aint, bummer - go back to your lazy lifestyle and kicking back, because a hard working and committed attitude is what it takes to survive in the cutthroat music business, which is equally important as talent.

I don't understand how it seems that more and more people are getting flaky these days. Maybe the new generations are used to their parents handing everything to them on a silver platter and don't realize the value of hard work.

[James Meeker]

Welcome to the wonderful world of squandered talent. It's the number one reason people fail in the music business. Life is too short to waste your time and creative energy on losers, because that's what those people are.

Dump her--she's the one that is breaching the contract with her behavior.

That's the problem with so many people, ego, laziness and a sense of entitlement. Once they get a contract in hand they think they've got success nailed, so they stop acting hungry and start trying to be a 'star'... whatever that means.

Successful people want MUCH more than fame or money. They are driven to succeed for reasons that often can never be satisfied by 'atta-boys' and cash.

[TROT]

Insightful comments from everyone. Most of the entries have nailed my current situation. I do believe that most of today's generation is lazy and basically useless. I am meeting her this weekend and will lay down the cards on the table. I did go through a lot of efforts to provide her with a medium to promote her singing and I'm not sure the appreciation is there.

Shape up or ship out will be the (very clear) message!

btw- I am also fed up with talented people saying they want to do something and then blow everything away with no sense of consequences and repercussions. What the hell is their problem? It's actually scary to think that the current generation will be in charge when we become old and crumpled...shivers all over..

[TROT]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Welcome to the wonderful world of squandered talent. It's the number one reason people fail in the music business. Life is too short to waste your time and creative energy on losers, because that's what those people are.

Dump her--she's the one that is breaching the contract with her behavior.

That's the problem with so many people, ego, laziness and a sense of entitlement. Once they get a contract in hand they think they've got success nailed, so they stop acting hungry and start trying to be a 'star'... whatever that means.

Successful people want MUCH more than fame or money. They are driven to succeed for reasons that often can never be satisfied by 'atta-boys' and cash.

I totally agree with your last paragraph. Much more than fame or money.
I have explained this to her many times. I've shown her around my modest setup and explained that many people would like to be in her position. She's got all she needs to move forward; decent recording equipment, dedicated songwriter and recording guy (me), and full economic support.

For a rookie effort I think she's got it made..in any case, we'll see what happens this weekend..

[Infernal Device]

I have dealt with these types in the past.

Trust me,

Cut it loose.

If it is this bad now, it will get way worse.

There are *SO MANY* good artists out there that would cut off their leg with a dull razor to get a chance to move up.

[CrankyRayHanky]

Originally Posted by TROT

Shape up or ship out will be the (very clear) message!

I noticed that sometimes we assume people like this have gotten the message and have yet to deliver. When the axe does swing, they often are perplexed and confused- never saw it coming.

A clear fair warning is appropriate to see if they can turn it around. Be as forthright as you can, and let the talent know that the axe will swing if things don't change.

[TROT]

A clear fair warning is appropriate to see if they can turn it around. Be as forthright as you can, and let the talent know that the axe will swing if things don't change.[/quote]

My feelings exactly. This will be the message delivered this weekend.
Nice, diplomatic but direct.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by TROT

The legal action part of the story is not about her coming after me .....

Silly assumption, sorry! Like everyone is saying... easier to nail jello to a fence, prob'ly.

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Successful people want MUCH more than fame or money.

That really is a fantastic insight-- when you're driven, whatever you achieve, you just keep on driving.

[Sqye]

.
jello to a fence, joel? you're a fikkin' RIOT...never heard that one...that's hilarious.

back OT:

the chances of ANYONE getting ANYWHERE in this "business" are so slim,
that it doesn't REALLY matter WHAT you do, or don't do.

you MIGHT ask yourself, though, "am i having FUN, yet?"

then carve out your plans based on your response to this.

because, in my experience, it only gets WORSE...more flaky, lazy, entitled people,
and more missed opportunities because of this, year after year, etc.

and MEANWHILE, you're working your ASS off (well, you MIGHT be - i don't really know).

so, in the end, you GOTTA ask yourself why you're doing this, REALLY - WHY?

just my $.02 (TOTALLY devalued, of course).

good luck. and don't let this shit get you crazy, even though you probably will...

we all do - it's the CURSE of attempting both artist and entrepreneur.
.

[Savernake]

Has this talent got ship shape yet? How did she take the news to get in gear? Do you have a new 'active' metaphor, I've used both of mine now ;)

[TROT]

No news today. The meeting is tomorrow.

[moracspace]

See ya,good bye,later,peace out.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by TROT

..and its a BIG but...

Anybody remember a similar line from PeeWee's Big Adventure?
I think Trot is having his big adventure only he's looking for some commitment from a lazy "talent". Probably as difficult as finding your bike in the basement of the Alamo.

[vitaminseal]

Hey, TROT, I think it's fantastic that you have put so much of yourself into helping her, and I think it's horribly frustrating and disappointing the costs of time, money, and spirit you have expended. At best you can recoup only the $, and it sounds like that will be a complicated process. I wish you success with it.

As someone who works a great deal with young and developing artists, I will humbly point out that in your conversation tomorrow, you have some profound teaching opportunities. Perhaps before the "come to Jesus" portion of the talk where you hash out contractual obligations and her outstanding balance, the two of you might have a candid conversation about her dreams and ambitions. A turn back the clock talk. This can be a time to speak as her teammate and co-conspirator as the two of you use animated and detailed language to paint a picture of what you might accomplish with this project. The same kind of talk you probably had many months ago when you started down this path. The more you can draw her out and hear her language on the subject, her words to describe what she wants, the more stones you have to lay for the foundation of the discussion to follow.

After all that dreamer language, I think it would be valuable then for both of you if you asked her why she isn't more invested in the project. Perhaps there is something profound getting in the way. Self-sabotage takes many forms, and laziness is one of them. Nelson Mandela famously remarked that "our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...." She might just be lazy. Or she might not know how to do what it is you need of her.

Are you guys co-writing? YOU may be writing absolutely killer songs, well beyond her ability to write alone. But if she doesn't feel personally invested in them on multiple levels (lyrically, stylistically, you name it), she is less likely to lift a finger on their behalf. And that leaves you with some seriously heavy lifting. How does she feel about the songs? Are there some more than others where she lights up? Have you guys ever talked about her mission statement as an artist and how this material articulates that person? If she doesn't care about her songs (i.e., the songs you may have sculpted around her sentiments or feelings), there is no way an audience will care. And that is when you know you should cut your losses.

But if this conversation rekindles any meaningful sparks, then perhaps the two of you can talk about what expectations you had and have of each other and how those expectations have not been but could be met. She should tell you what expectations she has of herself. She has to meet her financial obligations to you. Moving forward should be contingent upon that. But if she doesn't want to give up on the project, perhaps there are things you can delegate to her. By teaching her some skills you give her more power and thus more responsibility. And if you are parting ways and settling up, you can still come across not as the debt-collector but as the same person who believed in her in the first place and who wants to guide her positively toward her next move (with someone else!). Learning to pay for her mistakes, figuratively and fiscally, is part of that process.

I always tell young writers that what interests them will lead them to their truth. You are clearly a passionate and talented person. That is probably why she wanted to work with you in the first place. You likely have the skill to bring out her passion, her truth. And you have the insight to understand if she lacks the passion to move this forward. Either way, I think this conversation can be a much more positive and global one in which her responsibilities to you as teammate, guide, and technician, and to herself become clear to her and to you.

Even when I'm "teaching" a new artist, I always learn a great deal from them and from the situation. I hope this conversation, as difficult as it might seem now, will prove a positive one that will reinvigorate you and your work. You went into the project and logged all those hours for the right reasons. Respecting yourself might help her respect her responsibilities to you. Good luck.

[TROT]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

Anybody remember a similar line from PeeWee's Big Adventure?
I think Trot is having his big adventure only he's looking for some commitment from a lazy "talent". Probably as difficult as finding your bike in the basement of the Alamo.

LOL...that's correct..commitment from lazy talent. In all fairness, I think she's got what's necessary to take a shot at 'making it'. Question is, does she want to or not. To be or not to be kinda thing...

We'll see how it goes..worse case scenario, she screws herself outta a good deal with me and I go and find somebody else...which I already did..

No sense in wasting time and efforts on the horse that won't drink..right?
LOL

[TROT]

Originally Posted by vitaminseal

Hey, TROT, I think it's fantastic that you have put so much of yourself into helping her, and I think it's horribly frustrating and disappointing the costs of time, money, and spirit you have expended. At best you can recoup only the $, and it sounds like that will be a complicated process. I wish you success with it.

As someone who works a great deal with young and developing artists, I will humbly point out that in your conversation tomorrow, you have some profound teaching opportunities. Perhaps before the "come to Jesus" portion of the talk where you hash out contractual obligations and her outstanding balance, the two of you might have a candid conversation about her dreams and ambitions. A turn back the clock talk. This can be a time to speak as her teammate and co-conspirator as the two of you use animated and detailed language to paint a picture of what you might accomplish with this project. The same kind of talk you probably had many months ago when you started down this path. The more you can draw her out and hear her language on the subject, her words to describe what she wants, the more stones you have to lay for the foundation of the discussion to follow.

After all that dreamer language, I think it would be valuable then for both of you if you asked her why she isn't more invested in the project. Perhaps there is something profound getting in the way. Self-sabotage takes many forms, and laziness is one of them. Nelson Mandela famously remarked that "our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...." She might just be lazy. Or she might not know how to do what it is you need of her.

Are you guys co-writing? YOU may be writing absolutely killer songs, well beyond her ability to write alone. But if she doesn't feel personally invested in them on multiple levels (lyrically, stylistically, you name it), she is less likely to lift a finger on their behalf. And that leaves you with some seriously heavy lifting. How does she feel about the songs? Are there some more than others where she lights up? Have you guys ever talked about her mission statement as an artist and how this material articulates that person? If she doesn't care about her songs (i.e., the songs you may have sculpted around her sentiments or feelings), there is no way an audience will care. And that is when you know you should cut your losses.

But if this conversation rekindles any meaningful sparks, then perhaps the two of you can talk about what expectations you had and have of each other and how those expectations have not been but could be met. She should tell you what expectations she has of herself. She has to meet her financial obligations to you. Moving forward should be contingent upon that. But if she doesn't want to give up on the project, perhaps there are things you can delegate to her. By teaching her some skills you give her more power and thus more responsibility. And if you are parting ways and settling up, you can still come across not as the debt-collector but as the same person who believed in her in the first place and who wants to guide her positively toward her next move (with someone else!). Learning to pay for her mistakes, figuratively and fiscally, is part of that process.

I always tell young writers that what interests them will lead them to their truth. You are clearly a passionate and talented person. That is probably why she wanted to work with you in the first place. You likely have the skill to bring out her passion, her truth. And you have the insight to understand if she lacks the passion to move this forward. Either way, I think this conversation can be a much more positive and global one in which her responsibilities to you as teammate, guide, and technician, and to herself become clear to her and to you.

Even when I'm "teaching" a new artist, I always learn a great deal from them and from the situation. I hope this conversation, as difficult as it might seem now, will prove a positive one that will reinvigorate you and your work. You went into the project and logged all those hours for the right reasons. Respecting yourself might help her respect her responsibilities to you. Good luck.

Fantastic feedback. Let me tell you how much I've appreciated your words. They've given me a new direction to use tomorrow.

Thanks again!

[noiseflaw]

Originally Posted by vitaminseal

Hey, TROT, I think it's fantastic that you have put so much of yourself into helping her, and I think it's horribly frustrating and disappointing the costs of time, money, and spirit you have expended. At best you can recoup only the $, and it sounds like that will be a complicated process. I wish you success with it.

As someone who works a great deal with young and developing artists, I will humbly point out that in your conversation tomorrow, you have some profound teaching opportunities. Perhaps before the "come to Jesus" portion of the talk where you hash out contractual obligations and her outstanding balance, the two of you might have a candid conversation about her dreams and ambitions. A turn back the clock talk. This can be a time to speak as her teammate and co-conspirator as the two of you use animated and detailed language to paint a picture of what you might accomplish with this project. The same kind of talk you probably had many months ago when you started down this path. The more you can draw her out and hear her language on the subject, her words to describe what she wants, the more stones you have to lay for the foundation of the discussion to follow.

After all that dreamer language, I think it would be valuable then for both of you if you asked her why she isn't more invested in the project. Perhaps there is something profound getting in the way. Self-sabotage takes many forms, and laziness is one of them. Nelson Mandela famously remarked that "our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...." She might just be lazy. Or she might not know how to do what it is you need of her.

Are you guys co-writing? YOU may be writing absolutely killer songs, well beyond her ability to write alone. But if she doesn't feel personally invested in them on multiple levels (lyrically, stylistically, you name it), she is less likely to lift a finger on their behalf. And that leaves you with some seriously heavy lifting. How does she feel about the songs? Are there some more than others where she lights up? Have you guys ever talked about her mission statement as an artist and how this material articulates that person? If she doesn't care about her songs (i.e., the songs you may have sculpted around her sentiments or feelings), there is no way an audience will care. And that is when you know you should cut your losses.

But if this conversation rekindles any meaningful sparks, then perhaps the two of you can talk about what expectations you had and have of each other and how those expectations have not been but could be met. She should tell you what expectations she has of herself. She has to meet her financial obligations to you. Moving forward should be contingent upon that. But if she doesn't want to give up on the project, perhaps there are things you can delegate to her. By teaching her some skills you give her more power and thus more responsibility. And if you are parting ways and settling up, you can still come across not as the debt-collector but as the same person who believed in her in the first place and who wants to guide her positively toward her next move (with someone else!). Learning to pay for her mistakes, figuratively and fiscally, is part of that process.

I always tell young writers that what interests them will lead them to their truth. You are clearly a passionate and talented person. That is probably why she wanted to work with you in the first place. You likely have the skill to bring out her passion, her truth. And you have the insight to understand if she lacks the passion to move this forward. Either way, I think this conversation can be a much more positive and global one in which her responsibilities to you as teammate, guide, and technician, and to herself become clear to her and to you.

Even when I'm "teaching" a new artist, I always learn a great deal from them and from the situation. I hope this conversation, as difficult as it might seem now, will prove a positive one that will reinvigorate you and your work. You went into the project and logged all those hours for the right reasons. Respecting yourself might help her respect her responsibilities to you. Good luck.

...and all this advice for free, don'tcha just luv Gearslutz!

[js1]

Vitaminseal said it better than I ever could.

One other point to keep in mind - young people today are no different than young people at any time through history. Don't fall into the "kids today" stuff - we were no different - 'cause then, you're one step from "Hey kids, get off my lawn!".

You're looking at the passage of childhood to adulthood. Expecting 20 year olds to be 100% mature and adult in all situations isn't realistic. This is not a slag at all - most have had to be responsible for their actions as adults for a very short time.

You'll get raw talent, energy, enthusiasm, willingness to learn and experiment, and passion. You MAY also get inconsistency, randomness, recklessness, lack of focus, etc. Mentoring isn't always easy, but the rewards can be great.

js

[TROT]

Quick update...we met and she will see get another opportunity. Turns out that a lot of Vitamin's feedback was accurate..without too many details (cause I don't feel like typing all night) we will realign our musical approach to cater more towards her particular taste.

We'll see how it turns out in the near future.
Until the next adventure...thanks to all.

[Ironklad Audio]

My question to you is: do I keep trying to make her understand that this is a very good opportunity for her or do I call it quits with the possibility of legal action for breach of contract.

you tell her flat-out that the only people who "make it" are the ones who work their asses off for it, and that her efforts aren't cutting it

don't be mean, be honest. she might get pissed now, but if she's successful down the road, she'll thank you for the kick in the ass. if she fails, then your words will ring true in her head every time she thinks about her would-be music career.

[Ironklad Audio]

One other point to keep in mind - young people today are no different than young people at any time through history. Don't fall into the "kids today" stuff - we were no different - 'cause then, you're one step from "Hey kids, get off my lawn!".

You're looking at the passage of childhood to adulthood. Expecting 20 year olds to be 100% mature and adult in all situations isn't realistic. This is not a slag at all - most have had to be responsible for their actions as adults for a very short time.

You'll get raw talent, energy, enthusiasm, willingness to learn and experiment, and passion. You MAY also get inconsistency, randomness, recklessness, lack of focus, etc. Mentoring isn't always easy, but the rewards can be great.

yea man...i'm only 25, and i'm already bitching about "kids nowadays". then i remember what i was like when i was a kid, and straighten myself out. i'm sure my parents were just as big of shitheads when they were young as i was.

that, and if kids today really ARE that lazy and worthless and rude or whatever other adjective you want to apply to them, it's the fault of the adults who are in charge...both in their household, and outside of it.

[12345]

Originally Posted by TROT

I am also fed up with talented people saying they want to do something and then blow everything away with no sense of consequences and repercussions. What the hell is their problem?

That pisses me off as well. I know those kind of people. They are lazy but get opportunities that I dream of! If I would know an experienced producer I would work my ass off.

For example, I knew an unknown mediocre-talented artist who got the chance to work with sony/bmg but he refused because they didn't want to pay him cash as an advance. WTF

[CDS]

TROT,

Even still, you should try to find as much talent to work with as you can handle, because dealing with 1 main artist can really be hell. Most of the time we find ourselves believing in the talent more than they do of themselves, it happens to us all at some point.

Young female talent are a tad more challenging to work with due to possible distractions from their personal life (like the idiot boyfriend that want to double as Svengali). Or the ever so favorite "I'm pregnant" just when you lined up a fall tour schedule.

The more talent you work with at your pace, the less these types of issues will affect your goals.. If an artist want to be lazy.. let them.. when they call you out the blue, tell them your in a session. This will either get them to wake up or they will naturally drift away into obscurity.

[TROT]

Originally Posted by CDS

TROT,

Even still, you should try to find as much talent to work with as you can handle, because dealing with 1 main artist can really be hell. Most of the time we find ourselves believing in the talent more than they do of themselves, it happens to us all at some point.

Young female talent are a tad more challenging to work with due to possible distractions from their personal life (like the idiot boyfriend that want to double as Svengali). Or the ever so favorite "I'm pregnant" just when you lined up a fall tour schedule.

The more talent you work with at your pace, the less these types of issues will affect your goals.. If an artist want to be lazy.. let them.. when they call you out the blue, tell them your in a session. This will either get them to wake up or they will naturally drift away into obscurity.

Sage advice...which I already followed. I'm working with another female vocalist which is very talented and at the same time, searching for other motivated individuals. I realized that this would not only keep my mind off the individual in question but would also keep me focused on music and recording which to me is the most important thing.