How we are going to save the music industry

[theGeek]

Fact is there is nothing we can do. Because for everyone of us there are at least 100 people who just don't care. They will continue to download illegally, they will continue to listen to the crap that the corporate media shoves down their throat and Hanna Montana (or whatever "pop diva" takes her place) will continue to sell out.

I know that people think that somehow this will turn around but it won't. This is the music industry and unfortunately there is no way any of us can compete with big names like Microsoft, Sony or anything like that when we're doing this on our own.

So long as American Idol is still the most popular show on TV people won't none of this will change. The best we can do is keep pushing along and hope that the nearly infinite number of "indie" labels will make a dent in the crap storm that is the music industry.

[BioMichanical]

I was thinking about this yesterday as I was building my 4 x 12 guitar cabinet in the garage yesterday, listening to coyote radio, which mostly plays top hits from the 60's - 80's. It may seem odd, but I havn't heard this type if music in awhile - because I mainly listen to metal. But I noticed something about the music that is a lot different than it is now.

It seems to me that the music made in the 60's and 70's appealed to a much larger crowd, so it wasn't as segregated as it had become in the 90's. I think that up until the late 80's people generally were more accepting of what was on the radio, I mean sure you had your punks, hippies, rockers, disco freaks etc, but now days younger people who listen music are pretty much stuck listening to just that style of music, with rap and hip hop being one of the more dominant styles of music. The problem with everything being so "clicky" is that these music styles don't allow for any type of variety. Take Led Zeppelin for example. One song they are rocking out, the next song they are jamming total blue, and on the next song there playing a ballad. I guess Zeppelin caught my attention the most because they had the record for the most populated show, and then they broke their own record. Versatility, which meant just about anyone who listened to music probably listened to them. Today's bands and music don't have that kind of vision. They tend to write music for a certain type of crowd and that's it.

The other thing is plaguing the music industry is most of the music is very negative and depressing. Jim Morrison once said something about people listen to music and go to shows to be uplifted and I still believe that is the case, but most lyrics today are very negative, or just plain weird, no feeling or emotion, instead it all sounds like a band trying to emulate a popular sound just for the sake of being a rock star.

It's up to musicians to "save the music industry" to write better music so we can have better music to listen to. And in my opinion, I'd love to hear music that doesn't sound so lifeless.

[7161]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

Hi all,

I wanted to start a thread dedicated to discussing solutions to what seems to be, by many people's standards, a crisis in the music industry. Record labels dissolve or get swallowed by corporations, and music, while may have the same strength of writers of the past, are sounding worse than ever. Please don't flame me for the exceptions to this rule like Coldplay and Radiohead. I'm talking about the majority of the stuff that gets released, especially the artists that are below the mainstream radar.

While listening to one of my favorite bands, Type O Negative, I was comparing the sound of their previous works on Roadrunner to their latest on SPV. There's no doubt the sound of the record from SPV is way underpar to their previous works. Whether this is the case or not, it hit me that while artists hardly ever made a dime from record sales, hot record sales is a snowball effect of positive influence. First of all, in my opinion there are fewer and fewer good-sounding records out there. A good and original-sounding record will boost tour sales and TOUR SUPPORT from the label. This benefits both the artist AND label. Second, hot record sales boost mechanical royalties and demand from companies to use a song in multimedia, thus boosting publishing royalties. This then effects publishing companies positively. And last but not least, the budget from labels, enabled by record sales, trickles down to the engineers, producers, mixers and writers that inhabit this forum.

I've been studying this changing musical landscape for some time now, waiting on the sidelines to see where exactly I can fit in and actually make a living at it. I'd like us all to put our heads together and come up with a solution to turn this thing around, and allow artists to make GOOD SOUNDING RECORDS AGAIN. At least let's give it a shot.

maybe you shouldnt be in it. Have you ever considered that?

[SpiralTrance]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

MAKE A MEDIUM PEOPLE CAN'T COPY AND DISTRIBUTE

Now music is digital that's unrealistic. Where there's a clever geek there's a way.

Originally Posted by Mitch97

Stop them from having the ability to get it for free and they will have no choice but to pay for it.

Not necesarily because most people will just choose not to buy it.

Originally Posted by Mitch97

Now, what medium can we sell music on that people can't hack?

None. If it's digital it will get hacked.

Originally Posted by Mitch97

Am I retarded in saying that people will buy music again if they can't have it for free?

Not retarded. But the problem is you have a whole generation of kids that have never ever brought a CD and to whom having near instantanious access to 1,000,000s of albums for free as the norm. It's not right but it's the way it is and you aren't going to reverse that trend without switching the internet off.

[theGeek]

I think it would be great if it were easier for the average band to get their work on iTunes, Rhapsody and Zune would really help the "starving artists". People love the ability to DL everything from their home and the fact that programs like Zune have the unlimited downloads for $15/month makes it VERY appealing. I haven't bought a CD in about 6 months but I've tripled my collection. And its all legal!

[Mitch97]

Originally Posted by 7161

maybe you shouldnt be in it. Have you ever considered that?

Yeah, plenty of times. Maybe you should do the same.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by theGeek

... And its all legal!

That's no fun!

[7161]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

Yeah, plenty of times. Maybe you should do the same.

Yeah, but you're the one crying about it, not me. I'm fine thanks, I live in the most expensive part of one of the most expensive cities in the world and i owe nothing to anyone, i dont even own a credit card.

I have worked hard for 30 years starting with just an HH ICL 100 watt combo, a cheap s/h drumkit, 2 crappy dual concentric 12" speaker boxes which cost 60 quid, an old crown 100 watt amp and 2 cheap mics in a dingy basement running a crappy cheap rehearsal room for local bands, and I now own a company with investors in various countries.


i would suspect that 99% of the older experienced people on this forum running pro studios or other related media companies and making a living in this industry actualy spent years and years and years working their bollocks off, starting with nothing but a few bits of gear and a passion for the technology, and they didnt think they could sit on the sidelines waiting for some golden moment when they could waltz in and start to earn a pro living from the get-go.

it's the same with many product companies and boutique gear companies who started in small lockups or office rooms or from home or in a garage (dell or gateway computers for example or native-instruments or Access synths etc etc).


Maybe you need to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty and start small and work at it for 10 years?

or the more realistic option... get a bunch of people on a music forum to change the world so you can get a job.

whatever

[Mitch97]

Originally Posted by 7161

Yeah, but you're the one crying about it, not me. I'm fine thanks, I live in the most expensive part of one of the most expensive cities in the world and i owe nothing to anyone, i dont even own a credit card.

I have worked hard for 30 years starting with just an HH ICL 100 watt combo, a cheap s/h drumkit, 2 crappy dual concentric 12" speaker boxes which cost 60 quid, an old crown 100 watt amp and 2 cheap mics in a dingy basement running a crappy cheap rehearsal room for local bands, and I now own a company with investors in various countries.


i would suspect that 99% of the older experienced people on this forum running pro studios or other related media companies and making a living in this industry actualy spent years and years and years working their bollocks off, starting with nothing but a few bits of gear and a passion for the technology, and they didnt think they could sit on the sidelines waiting for some golden moment when they could waltz in and start to earn a pro living from the get-go.

it's the same with many product companies and boutique gear companies who started in small lockups or office rooms or from home or in a garage (dell or gateway computers for example or native-instruments or Access synths etc etc).


Maybe you need to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty and start small and work at it for 10 years?

or the more realistic option... get a bunch of people on a music forum to change the world so you can get a job.

whatever

Congrats on your success in the biz, even if you started 30 years ago when the music industry was vastly different from today. It's not the same model anymore obviously.

I am about to get my hands dirty and work my ass off. I also live in one of the most expensive cities in the world and one that is crawling with music industry professionals who don't know what the f--k is going on...not even Jimmy Iovine who works in the town 30 minutes away from me.

So, I've been out here in LA for 10 years and participated by creating music and working with the most brilliant minds in music and recording, and all I can hear is "where did the money go?". That's not stopping me anymore, as I've found a way in, and I figure that the industry will be fine, that we'll find away out of this confusion. My hopes for this post was to generate ideas of how to really stop EVERYONE from crying so we can focus on the music, and have budgets to make the shit GOOD.

[Ironklad Audio]

"where did the money go?"

what's funny is that the money is still there, but the market has been fractionalized and spread thin...and as a result, so is the "industry"

people still spend plenty of $$ on music - they just don't spend it on damned CD's. i'd be willing to be that if you made a chart showing declining CD sales, then put it next to a chart showing increased sales of digital downloads, along with cell phone downloads(and i'm talking actual songs, not just ringtones), they'd be about even.

on top of that, look at the increase of sales by independent labels and artists next to the decrease in sales for majors, and you'll see that the music "industry" is alive and well, but in a completely different shape and form than it existed a decade ago.

[theGeek]

not to mention the fact that its nearly impossible to find a good start to finish album. Maybe a band will get off one good track but that's about it. Why would i buy the whole album when i only like 1 song.

The subscription services address that issue.

Fact is, we can't change the consumer. We just need to change our marketing strategies to fit what they want. that's business my friends!!

[Monstadrums]

You are NEVER going to stop downloading. Top bands in this country are quitting because of it oweing their record label hundreds of thousands of dollars. Personally I cant see a solution. I'm involved in the industry here at a high level and have had many such discussions and have listened to many suggestions NONE of which will work. Live shows suck because of the terrible public transport and the massive police presence to catch drink drivers. (also the spread out nature of our country) A top band in this country may get 300 people to a show but you can tour this country in a matter of weeks...then what do you do? Major labels in this country are hanging on by a thread... no longer signing bands and letting staff go. Universals office here is staffed by 3 people! The only thing we can do is record ourselves and release independently even going as far as giving our music away to hopefully generate enough interest to get some airplay and get people to shows. Then go out and tour twice a year while working day jobs for the rest of the year. Even the very top bands in this country all have day jobs to support themselves. I could ramble on for ages and this country is small so a bit different to others but I think that makes us ahead. If you watch what happens here it will eventually happen in larger countries.

[theGeek]

Originally Posted by Monstadrums

You are NEVER going to stop downloading. Top bands in this country are quitting because of it oweing their record label hundreds of thousands of dollars. Personally I cant see a solution. I'm involved in the industry here at a high level and have had many such discussions and have listened to many suggestions NONE of which will work. Live shows suck because of the terrible public transport and the massive police presence to catch drink drivers. (also the spread out nature of our country) A top band in this country may get 300 people to a show but you can tour this country in a matter of weeks...then what do you do? Major labels in this country are hanging on by a thread... no longer signing bands and letting staff go. Universals office here is staffed by 3 people! The only thing we can do is record ourselves and release independently even going as far as giving our music away to hopefully generate enough interest to get some airplay and get people to shows. Then go out and tour twice a year while working day jobs for the rest of the year. Even the very top bands in this country all have day jobs to support themselves. I could ramble on for ages and this country is small so a bit different to others but I think that makes us ahead. If you watch what happens here it will eventually happen in larger countries.

I truly agree. The independent artists who are willing to do the work themselves will always thrive because they don't owe anyone anything. I'm only 26 and I've managed to live my life debt free. My wife and I own our home free and clear and we both have pretty good jobs. We don't have a lot but no one can ever take that from us. I approach my music the same way. My band pays up front for all studio time and if we can't afford to do a project we wait until we can. We aren't interested in labels or any of that. We just want to play the best music we can. We all have GREAT gear, are solid musicians and love what we do. And I really believe attitudes like our are the only way to "save" the music industry.

Without getting too much more on my soapbox I'll say that the music industry is just reflecting the current mentality of a lot of American. We want it all now and we don't care how we get it. How often do you hear about 12 months no interest at Guitar Center? Bands want to make it big so badly that they don't read the fine print on their contract and end up owing thousands to labels. The consumer wants music now so they download... legally or illegally. I will now step off my soapbox.

[lucey]

Good post. DIY for the love of it. No debt, no deals with the devil.

[joelpatterson]

But then-- if you made a deal with the devil you don't know (as opposed to the devil you do) maybe he would never find you? Just a thought...

[audiovisceral]

keep in mind online streaming royalties (imeem/youtube), subscriptions, and major label unity are still immature.

but there will always be music and it will always make money.

[Dr. Fringe]

Originally Posted by Battles

Pro Tools is not the problem. Home recording is not the problem. You said it ... the industry is changing. It's a good thing. The middle men are being thinned out because of technology.

I personally think the price of music needs to drop as the middle man goes away. CD's should be no more than $10 and digital albums no more than $8. There needs to be an open standard for DRM and the files need to be lossless. I am not going to buy an album for $10 that is compressed. I do buy at least one CD a month ... and I usually only pay $6.99 if it is through my club.

I've said that for a few years, nicely summed up. Like it or not, filesharing is here to stay. Check out emusic. Once you purchase something you can download another copy. Plus they get the fact that Mp3s are not as valuable as solid copies. You get a track for about 20 cents. Good model. Also people need to be less stingy with demos and live stuff. I don't see that being monitored like it used to be but if you treat the fans well, a lot will be good to you in return.

Good thread, great discussion, and I could be wrong about any aspect of this.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Crandak

sony makes an MS3 and microsoft makes an Mbox ... or musicbox... and music comes on a cartridge in high def audio. and neither makes a recordable cartridge. or better yet, why not just release music on game cartridges since the consoles are everywhere?

brilliant!
the framework is there, the distribution is there, the technology is there.
most have extensive audio setups to make their games sound realistic.
hell, present it in a new format.


oh yeah.. fukk the loudness war. it's a dead end. nobody wants it. the consumer is SUPPOSED to want it. IMO it's a nasty feedback loop.

[allphourus]

Nope were not going to.....

It is what it is.........................They dug there own grave.

In the real world Music and Business are incompatible. Can't work! Never will, never has. The music suffers for it, the artist suffers for it and the listener suffers for it.

Put the music back in the hands of of the people,,,,, Literally,,,,, I mean the Instruments themselves,

Your all invited over my house sat night for good Old fashion sit down and jam it out.

Just kidding bout sat night you know, But I hope you get the point.

Music like Sports is not a spectator thing it's mandatory participation. I don't care if its just wash board and spoons, join in please.

Your question should be rephrased " How do we save the entertainment Industry?"

Sorry but the answers still the same.

Any one wanna play some softball Sunday after we rock out the praise and worship in church?

Sorry life isn't a spectator sport. It's not suppose to be voyeuristic like it's, thats sick.

Get out there and live a little will you?

[Bob Olhsson]

FWIW the most engaging music I've ever heard in my life was live. I love making records but I never kid myself about the power of recording vs what's actually possible live. We're a couple decades overdue for a young artist who changes everything much as Harry Potter recently did in the world of books.

I'd put my money on it being part of a live show and not sounding at all like an '80s overdub everything record.

[EvilE]

Originally Posted by Battles

Pro Tools is not the problem. Home recording is not the problem. You said it ... the industry is changing. It's a good thing. The middle men are being thinned out because of technology. The key for the artist now is making great music and finding a new way to promote themselves. Promotion is the key. As far as the engineers go ... they are facing problems with not only the industry but with the economy as a whole. I think they will be alright. In the end, there will be many bands who need good studios.

I personally think the price of music needs to drop as the middle man goes away. CD's should be no more than $10 and digital albums no more than $8. There needs to be an open standard for DRM and the files need to be lossless. I am not going to buy an album for $10 that is compressed. I do buy at least one CD a month ... and I usually only pay $6.99 if it is through my club.

Piracy is an issue ... but I don't think it is because people don't want to buy music anymore. Face it, a lot of people in this world wouldn't pay for anything if they didn't have to. If cars, televisions, etc. could be copied/stolen without ever getting caught or really putting a burden on someone else's resources (resources ... not bottom line) ... they would do it in a heartbeat. I set sail on the seas every now and then ... but I pay for the good stuff. If music was cheaper ... I would pay for a lot more of it (or if a lot more good stuff came out more often).

This is a really good point. People DO pay for music. Rhapsody and iTunes are getting more popular everyday. The industry is not dying it's changing. The playing field is being leveled in a drastic way. No longer are the "major" record labels holding the keys to success. I say let them die. They have never been artist driven or creatively motivated. Live music is more popular than ever. Ticket sales are up and prices too. There are a TON of people going to shows and hunting for their next favorite artist. It's cool now because you have to go look for the music you like it's not spoonfed to you on the radio. In this way it's a lot more like it was back in the day.

As far as multi platinum records and million dollar budgets go this is a thing of the past. And who cares? Most artists, including myself, would be just as happy making a decent living playing and recording music while maintaining a sense of integrity and respect for doing it largely by themselves. It's an entrepreneurial business now. Go make your OWN money. It can be done!

E

[EvilE]

Originally Posted by theGeek

I think it would be great if it were easier for the average band to get their work on iTunes, Rhapsody and Zune would really help the "starving artists". People love the ability to DL everything from their home and the fact that programs like Zune have the unlimited downloads for $15/month makes it VERY appealing. I haven't bought a CD in about 6 months but I've tripled my collection. And its all legal!

as far as i know iTunes does not descriminate. it is simply a matter of setting it up. i've never had or heard of a project getting turned down. rhapsody i'm not sure of....haven't had to deal with them myself yet. i'd imagine it's about the same tho.

but that's the beautiful thing. everyone now has access to international distribution over the internet. SCREW THE MAJORS! seriously....i wouldn't sign to one.....although i'd probably take SubPop....

[ALL*MYTEE]

Originally Posted by EvilE

as far as i know iTunes does not descriminate. it is simply a matter of setting it up. i've never had or heard of a project getting turned down. rhapsody i'm not sure of....haven't had to deal with them myself yet. i'd imagine it's about the same tho.

but that's the beautiful thing. everyone now has access to international distribution over the internet. SCREW THE MAJORS! seriously....i wouldn't sign to one.....although i'd probably take SubPop....

I don't know what your definition of indie is but Sub Pop is 49% owned by Time/Warner and is distributed by ADA which is 95% owned by Time/Warner. They probably would have collapsed years ago without the money that Warner Brothers put into them.