Making A Living

[Kai Anders]

I would like people to post how it is, in there own personal experience, that they have or have not succeeded is the music industry and recording industry. I am hoping it to be inspirational. Post your struggles and success's. tell us your story of where you started from scratch and how far you have come and where you would like to go.

[JimmyM]

I made three crucial mistakes:

1. I was too loyal to friends who were talented but had no drive or money, and I didn't want to work with people who had a lot of money and little talent.

2. I tried too hard to make a living at playing music, so I never had a job that paid six figures so I could afford to buy my way into the industry.

3. I never learned how to be a good salesman/politician. Instead, I thought I could rely on my talent to speak for itself. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

So if I have any advice, it's either do it because you love it and don't worry about making money with it, or make friends with rich and/or well-connected people in the industry.

[James Meeker]

The more you do, the more you get to do.

If you want to make records for a living you need to be on this thing all day, every day. Sacrifice. Push yourself to be the best. Make connections. Try to do something or learn something new EVERY day.

Don't give up. The only way to fail is to stop learning or quit.

[The Byre]

I'm earning a good living by doing what the others are not doing.

When every nit-wit out there was buying the latest PT upgrade, I got a reel-to-reel. When everybody was buying virtual synths, I got a Hammond and a Wurly. When everybody out there bar-beat edits every take into a plastic death, I ask for a retake.

If you do what everybody else is doing, you are by definition, entering an overcrowded market and therefore making a mistake.

[Joerogers1970]

CAUTION - Occasional rants - CAUTION

Success is a fairly loose term. I was very successful in this industry as I turned out some excellent product and worked with the some great musicians. Now, if we measure success by dollar signs than man, I was as close to un-successful as one could possibly get.

I made the mistake (I think) of working at some seedy places where I was given the opportunity to learn, thrown into the fire (the first session that I ever recorded was a big band that the studio owner had "forgotten" to book an engineer for). At the time, I had about 6 months experience as an assistant. Needless to say, I made several big mistakes but at the end of the day, a decent enough signal got sent to tape and the customer was satisfied with the end product.

By the same token, I worked at some very respectable/high-end studios where I was offered the chance to work with some very high end clients. The combination of working on the high end stuff as well as the low end did wonders to shape my style.

At seedy place #1, we did a lot of jingles where I learned how to act when the CEO of Coca Cola was in the studio. I learned excellent session management skills (which have been a godsend for my day job as an IT consulting manager) and above all, respect for the people that showed up at your door with money to spend regardless of if I liked their music or not or if they knew how to tune their guitars.

The root cause of my lack of success - Forgetting that it is a business

I haven't been in a studio for several years now however, now that the kids are a bit bigger, and I have a little bit of free time, I'm going to start shopping around for some freelance work. I have five weeks a year of vacation so I might as well find a constructive way to spend a few of them. Disney has enough of my money.

I miss the hell out of being in a studio. The creativity license that you have sitting in the control room is awe inspiring. Knowing that you can affect the singers performance by slightly adjusting the vocal balance in the headphone mix is knowing that you have the power to influence the outcome of not just the record, but the overall performance.

I failed in that I didn't become the next Bob Ezrin or Mutt Lange but I succeeded in knowing that I shipped out some good product. I know that commercials that I recorded were shown during the superbowl, I know that some of the tracks that I did were nominated (and in one case won) grammy's. I know that I was able to record some of the best musicians in NYC and that when they came in to listen to their takes, the only thing that got critiqued was there performance because the sounds were there.

The lessons that I learned in the business were lessons that have served me well in my professional life - Listen more than you speak is one that comes to mind. For the Covey folks - Begin with the end in mind - You need to know (or at least have a good idea) what the song is going to sound like when it's done before the first note gets sent to tape.

Succes Story 1 - A few months ago, we had a "What's on your iPod" thing at work. Our CEO stepped up to the stage and proudly played his favorite track. It was a jazz song that I had recorded and mixed about 12 years ago. When I mentioned this to him, he called bullshit and I asked him to bring in the liner notes for the record. He did and I showed where the names of all of the little people that helped bring the music that he liked so much to his ears. There in the small print that is reserved for us was :Recording and Mixing Engineer - Joe Rogers. He was floored and couldn't believe that someone who was that creative actually worked in his company. Not sure if that was meant to be good or bad but now, I have my CEO calling on me whenever he's in town asking silly questions about how sound that comes out of a real instrument can make it all the way to a CD, through an ipod and into his head. I usually have to block off about 4 hours for him to talk music and recording now.

Success Story 2 - A band that I had done an indie record for managed to get themselves signed a while back. They got a big name producer who had a few big name engineers that he worked with at a few big name studios. Needless to say, I didn't get the gig. About three weeks into their sessions, I get a call from the big name engineer guy asking what I had done to get a guitar sound on several tracks. It seems that the big shot engineer (wall of gold records kind of guy - very nice though and a great guy) couldn't get anything close to what I had gotten for these particular tracks. It was a very nice feeling when I explaned my process to him (and faxed him some of my session notes) andhe said - Wow, I would never have thought of that. And then wanted me to explain in detail, my thought process for setting it up the way that I had. I went through it and he was very excited to do it that way on not just this project, but some others that he had lined up. I can now hear that gtr sound on many hit records today.

Success Story 3 - My kids (ages 3, 7 and 15) occasionally ask about what I did in the music business and I'll tell them a few stories here and there (cleaned up of course). My 15 year old calls me his guitar tech because I have a way of messing with all of the knobs and such to get him the sound that he wants. Whenever his friends get new gear, they bring it over so that I can make it sound good. As much as I hate being pulled up from the couch to do this, I really like that my son thinks that his dad is "cool" in this way. I like that when he comes up with a new song, he asks me what I would do to make it sound good in a studio setting. We're now learning pro-ttols together

That to me is success.
I make a ton of money during the day and at the end of the day, sometimes, I hate myself for giving up on my dream of being a console jockey rock star, then, my three year old little girl comes up to me, asks me why I don't look like a happy face, tells me that she loves me and gives me a big wet kiss. Why was I upset before? I can't remember now because I'm the happiest guy in the world.

I'm where I need to be now. If I could find a way to own my own studio ( a big ****er with an 8068 and an SSL 9080J, at least 2 of every decent mic, at least 10 racks of outboard and oh yeah, two Studer A800's, a Sony 3348 and an HD4 systems in each room - I already have the plans drawn up) and actually either make money or simply, not care that I'm loosing money, and still be able to put food on the table, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Let someone else explain to IT people that they need to back their servers up.

[snüzz]

[quote]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

3. I never learned how to be a good salesman/politician. Instead, I thought I could rely on my talent to speak for itself. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

my biggest problem in a nut shell.

[johnwayne]

Originally Posted by The Byre

I'm earning a good living by doing what the others are not doing.

When every nit-wit out there was buying the latest PT upgrade, I got a reel-to-reel. When everybody was buying virtual synths, I got a Hammond and a Wurly. When everybody out there bar-beat edits every take into a plastic death, I ask for a retake.

If you do what everybody else is doing, you are by definition, entering an overcrowded market and therefore making a mistake.

Good advice Business 101

[bass man]

Originally Posted by Joerogers1970

CAUTION - Occasional rants - CAUTION

Success is a fairly loose term. I was very successful in this industry as I turned out some excellent product and worked with the some great musicians. Now, if we measure success by dollar signs than man, I was as close to un-successful as one could possibly get.

I made the mistake (I think) of working at some seedy places where I was given the opportunity to learn, thrown into the fire (the first session that I ever recorded was a big band that the studio owner had "forgotten" to book an engineer for). At the time, I had about 6 months experience as an assistant. Needless to say, I made several big mistakes but at the end of the day, a decent enough signal got sent to tape and the customer was satisfied with the end product.

By the same token, I worked at some very respectable/high-end studios where I was offered the chance to work with some very high end clients. The combination of working on the high end stuff as well as the low end did wonders to shape my style.

At seedy place #1, we did a lot of jingles where I learned how to act when the CEO of Coca Cola was in the studio. I learned excellent session management skills (which have been a godsend for my day job as an IT consulting manager) and above all, respect for the people that showed up at your door with money to spend regardless of if I liked their music or not or if they knew how to tune their guitars.

The root cause of my lack of success - Forgetting that it is a business

I haven't been in a studio for several years now however, now that the kids are a bit bigger, and I have a little bit of free time, I'm going to start shopping around for some freelance work. I have five weeks a year of vacation so I might as well find a constructive way to spend a few of them. Disney has enough of my money.

I miss the hell out of being in a studio. The creativity license that you have sitting in the control room is awe inspiring. Knowing that you can affect the singers performance by slightly adjusting the vocal balance in the headphone mix is knowing that you have the power to influence the outcome of not just the record, but the overall performance.

I failed in that I didn't become the next Bob Ezrin or Mutt Lange but I succeeded in knowing that I shipped out some good product. I know that commercials that I recorded were shown during the superbowl, I know that some of the tracks that I did were nominated (and in one case won) grammy's. I know that I was able to record some of the best musicians in NYC and that when they came in to listen to their takes, the only thing that got critiqued was there performance because the sounds were there.

The lessons that I learned in the business were lessons that have served me well in my professional life - Listen more than you speak is one that comes to mind. For the Covey folks - Begin with the end in mind - You need to know (or at least have a good idea) what the song is going to sound like when it's done before the first note gets sent to tape.

Succes Story 1 - A few months ago, we had a "What's on your iPod" thing at work. Our CEO stepped up to the stage and proudly played his favorite track. It was a jazz song that I had recorded and mixed about 12 years ago. When I mentioned this to him, he called bullshit and I asked him to bring in the liner notes for the record. He did and I showed where the names of all of the little people that helped bring the music that he liked so much to his ears. There in the small print that is reserved for us was :Recording and Mixing Engineer - Joe Rogers. He was floored and couldn't believe that someone who was that creative actually worked in his company. Not sure if that was meant to be good or bad but now, I have my CEO calling on me whenever he's in town asking silly questions about how sound that comes out of a real instrument can make it all the way to a CD, through an ipod and into his head. I usually have to block off about 4 hours for him to talk music and recording now.

Success Story 2 - A band that I had done an indie record for managed to get themselves signed a while back. They got a big name producer who had a few big name engineers that he worked with at a few big name studios. Needless to say, I didn't get the gig. About three weeks into their sessions, I get a call from the big name engineer guy asking what I had done to get a guitar sound on several tracks. It seems that the big shot engineer (wall of gold records kind of guy - very nice though and a great guy) couldn't get anything close to what I had gotten for these particular tracks. It was a very nice feeling when I explaned my process to him (and faxed him some of my session notes) andhe said - Wow, I would never have thought of that. And then wanted me to explain in detail, my thought process for setting it up the way that I had. I went through it and he was very excited to do it that way on not just this project, but some others that he had lined up. I can now hear that gtr sound on many hit records today.

Success Story 3 - My kids (ages 3, 7 and 15) occasionally ask about what I did in the music business and I'll tell them a few stories here and there (cleaned up of course). My 15 year old calls me his guitar tech because I have a way of messing with all of the knobs and such to get him the sound that he wants. Whenever his friends get new gear, they bring it over so that I can make it sound good. As much as I hate being pulled up from the couch to do this, I really like that my son thinks that his dad is "cool" in this way. I like that when he comes up with a new song, he asks me what I would do to make it sound good in a studio setting. We're now learning pro-ttols together

That to me is success.
I make a ton of money during the day and at the end of the day, sometimes, I hate myself for giving up on my dream of being a console jockey rock star, then, my three year old little girl comes up to me, asks me why I don't look like a happy face, tells me that she loves me and gives me a big wet kiss. Why was I upset before? I can't remember now because I'm the happiest guy in the world.

I'm where I need to be now. If I could find a way to own my own studio ( a big ****er with an 8068 and an SSL 9080J, at least 2 of every decent mic, at least 10 racks of outboard and oh yeah, two Studer A800's, a Sony 3348 and an HD4 systems in each room - I already have the plans drawn up) and actually either make money or simply, not care that I'm loosing money, and still be able to put food on the table, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Let someone else explain to IT people that they need to back their servers up.

Great post man !

[blaugruen7]

wonderful post, joe!

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by The Byre

I'm earning a good living by doing what the others are not doing.

When every nit-wit out there was buying the latest PT upgrade, I got a reel-to-reel. When everybody was buying virtual synths, I got a Hammond and a Wurly. When everybody out there bar-beat edits every take into a plastic death, I ask for a retake.

If you do what everybody else is doing, you are by definition, entering an overcrowded market and therefore making a mistake.

then i did it one better !!

I own four studios around oxford - one is all decked out with old Neve console, MCI tape deck, EMT plate verb etc etc. Others are more DAW friendly and fader controllers....
... actually - i know you do this too....so....

I agree - do what others arent doing - I do a couple of things with TV ads that NO-ONE else does. Gets the gigs, as it were..... (hint) - let a little go to gain a lot more !!

[The Byre]

I haven't seen you on the dark side! But we are having a bash this summer - all welcome, even Dicks! All you eat and drink and a firework display.

But yes, if you are not the best at what you do, do something else! It works for me! Some of them are the best at what they do, but I do what I do and what I do ain't they do.

All kinds of PT madmen come here, guys with whom I stand no chance of competing, not because this is PT heaven, but because I have a good room and a good room etc., etc., etc.

[jonnyb8390]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I made three crucial mistakes:

1. I was too loyal to friends who were talented but had no drive or money, and I didn't want to work with people who had a lot of money and little talent.

2. I tried too hard to make a living at playing music, so I never had a job that paid six figures so I could afford to buy my way into the industry.

3. I never learned how to be a good salesman/politician. Instead, I thought I could rely on my talent to speak for itself. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

So if I have any advice, it's either do it because you love it and don't worry about making money with it, or make friends with rich and/or well-connected people in the industry.

Wow, that's right on the money! I'd like to add that I wasn't willing to get on my knees for the successful idiots - Kanye West is a dou***.
Sorry this isn't more cheerful!

[evangelista]

Originally Posted by Joerogers1970

CAUTION - Occasional rants - CAUTION

Success is a fairly loose term. I was very successful in this industry as I turned out some excellent product and worked with the some great musicians. Now, if we measure success by dollar signs than man, I was as close to un-successful as one could possibly get.

I made the mistake (I think) of working at some seedy places where I was given the opportunity to learn, thrown into the fire (the first session that I ever recorded was a big band that the studio owner had "forgotten" to book an engineer for). At the time, I had about 6 months experience as an assistant. Needless to say, I made several big mistakes but at the end of the day, a decent enough signal got sent to tape and the customer was satisfied with the end product.

By the same token, I worked at some very respectable/high-end studios where I was offered the chance to work with some very high end clients. The combination of working on the high end stuff as well as the low end did wonders to shape my style.

At seedy place #1, we did a lot of jingles where I learned how to act when the CEO of Coca Cola was in the studio. I learned excellent session management skills (which have been a godsend for my day job as an IT consulting manager) and above all, respect for the people that showed up at your door with money to spend regardless of if I liked their music or not or if they knew how to tune their guitars.

The root cause of my lack of success - Forgetting that it is a business

I haven't been in a studio for several years now however, now that the kids are a bit bigger, and I have a little bit of free time, I'm going to start shopping around for some freelance work. I have five weeks a year of vacation so I might as well find a constructive way to spend a few of them. Disney has enough of my money.

I miss the hell out of being in a studio. The creativity license that you have sitting in the control room is awe inspiring. Knowing that you can affect the singers performance by slightly adjusting the vocal balance in the headphone mix is knowing that you have the power to influence the outcome of not just the record, but the overall performance.

I failed in that I didn't become the next Bob Ezrin or Mutt Lange but I succeeded in knowing that I shipped out some good product. I know that commercials that I recorded were shown during the superbowl, I know that some of the tracks that I did were nominated (and in one case won) grammy's. I know that I was able to record some of the best musicians in NYC and that when they came in to listen to their takes, the only thing that got critiqued was there performance because the sounds were there.

The lessons that I learned in the business were lessons that have served me well in my professional life - Listen more than you speak is one that comes to mind. For the Covey folks - Begin with the end in mind - You need to know (or at least have a good idea) what the song is going to sound like when it's done before the first note gets sent to tape.

Succes Story 1 - A few months ago, we had a "What's on your iPod" thing at work. Our CEO stepped up to the stage and proudly played his favorite track. It was a jazz song that I had recorded and mixed about 12 years ago. When I mentioned this to him, he called bullshit and I asked him to bring in the liner notes for the record. He did and I showed where the names of all of the little people that helped bring the music that he liked so much to his ears. There in the small print that is reserved for us was :Recording and Mixing Engineer - Joe Rogers. He was floored and couldn't believe that someone who was that creative actually worked in his company. Not sure if that was meant to be good or bad but now, I have my CEO calling on me whenever he's in town asking silly questions about how sound that comes out of a real instrument can make it all the way to a CD, through an ipod and into his head. I usually have to block off about 4 hours for him to talk music and recording now.

Success Story 2 - A band that I had done an indie record for managed to get themselves signed a while back. They got a big name producer who had a few big name engineers that he worked with at a few big name studios. Needless to say, I didn't get the gig. About three weeks into their sessions, I get a call from the big name engineer guy asking what I had done to get a guitar sound on several tracks. It seems that the big shot engineer (wall of gold records kind of guy - very nice though and a great guy) couldn't get anything close to what I had gotten for these particular tracks. It was a very nice feeling when I explaned my process to him (and faxed him some of my session notes) andhe said - Wow, I would never have thought of that. And then wanted me to explain in detail, my thought process for setting it up the way that I had. I went through it and he was very excited to do it that way on not just this project, but some others that he had lined up. I can now hear that gtr sound on many hit records today.

Success Story 3 - My kids (ages 3, 7 and 15) occasionally ask about what I did in the music business and I'll tell them a few stories here and there (cleaned up of course). My 15 year old calls me his guitar tech because I have a way of messing with all of the knobs and such to get him the sound that he wants. Whenever his friends get new gear, they bring it over so that I can make it sound good. As much as I hate being pulled up from the couch to do this, I really like that my son thinks that his dad is "cool" in this way. I like that when he comes up with a new song, he asks me what I would do to make it sound good in a studio setting. We're now learning pro-ttols together

That to me is success.
I make a ton of money during the day and at the end of the day, sometimes, I hate myself for giving up on my dream of being a console jockey rock star, then, my three year old little girl comes up to me, asks me why I don't look like a happy face, tells me that she loves me and gives me a big wet kiss. Why was I upset before? I can't remember now because I'm the happiest guy in the world.

I'm where I need to be now. If I could find a way to own my own studio ( a big ****er with an 8068 and an SSL 9080J, at least 2 of every decent mic, at least 10 racks of outboard and oh yeah, two Studer A800's, a Sony 3348 and an HD4 systems in each room - I already have the plans drawn up) and actually either make money or simply, not care that I'm loosing money, and still be able to put food on the table, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Let someone else explain to IT people that they need to back their servers up.

Really great post.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by The Byre

I haven't seen you on the dark side! But we are having a bash this summer - all welcome, even Dicks! All you eat and drink and a firework display.

But yes, if you are not the best at what you do, do something else! It works for me! Some of them are the best at what they do, but I do what I do and what I do ain't they do.

All kinds of PT madmen come here, guys with whom I stand no chance of competing, not because this is PT heaven, but because I have a good room and a good room etc., etc., etc.

...good room?

You have a waaga wagga ace cool room!

...and you do know your onions fellah - that goes a long way !

[BevvyB]

Time and time again you hear musicians saying that they're not a great salesperson. This is a good thing. Realising that this is something you can't do is something that should propel musicians and producers into action - namely going to find the manager or agent who can do the selling and help you realise your potential.

However, by the time this realisation is made the bubble is burst, and the thought of actually having to let someone control even the slightest bit of a career stops anyone getting any further on this road, which is a terrible shame.

The problem is, you have to have enough salesperson about you to be able to sell yourself to a manager. If you can't convince a manager (or someone who could help you) that you're worth taking on, then he's not going to be able to sell you himself. All this may take is enough balls to simply get someone to hear your stuff - but even this is too much for some people. Self-doubt and loathing kicks in, and instead of one call being taken to the right person, the genius musician goes and has another attempt at mixing another track, just to make sure its perfect. And then doesn't make the call. Ever.

Ufortunately, after years of honing their craft in the studio in a vacuum, and being able to control every last minute sonic detail, the thought of relinquishing control in any part of their lives can be self defeating to even the most brilliant talent. Another terrible shame.

Personally, I have overcome my fear of having to learn all this other crap by my actual love for music. My mantra is, if I DON'T learn this other stuff, I WON'T be able to do this music. So I learn it. I'm not talented at it, but my love for music gives me the bloody-mindedness to learn it anyway.

I am sure that a lot of people around here are the same.

The reason I'm saying all this is because these are the demons I have to face, but I'm still in the battle and don't intend on giving up anytime soon.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Kai Anders

I would like people to post how it is, in there own personal experience, that they have or have not succeeded is the music industry and recording industry. I am hoping it to be inspirational. Post your struggles and success's. tell us your story of where you started from scratch and how far you have come and where you would like to go.

Diversity is the key for me.

For a couple of years I was freelance assisting, but not really getting enough work to be able to afford to move out of my parents house. But I made work for myself in other audio areas - I programmed ringtones (at the point where the polyphonic tones were taking off) which I could fit around the sessions I did, and built a useful business for a few years - even subcontracting work out when I didn't have enough time, and thus earning money from other's work!

Even now, I still do the occasional job...plus I mark A-Level music technology once a year, which insures the car and pays off a few bills each year - and again has minimal fixed-time commitment to interfere with studio sessions.

Having a good system at home has helped me too - I've done tuning and editing jobs there.

It's finding paying-but-maybe-dull jobs to fill up time when you're not engaged on proper sessions, or at the very least filling that time with worthwhile projects - which then may well turn into proper paying gigs.